RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Homer38]

In Lebron’s 10 finals, on four occasions, the player Lebron guarded (or chose not to guard at his own position in the cop out against KD) won finals MVP.

So in 40% of his finals appearances, Lebron’s small forward finals matchup won finals MVP. That includes Andre Iguodala. Talk about defensive prowess.

Iggy won the final mvp because he was the only reason why that LeBron did not score 40 points per game in that finals.....The cavs were up 2-1 despite a complete depleted roster before Iggy was in the starting lineup and one of the other reason also why Iggy won the FMVP was because he was able to hit the wide open shot that the cavs were conceded to him

LeBron was 57% from the field and 51% from 3 in 2014....The spurs won because they were 54% from the field and 47% from 3....Jordan never face a offense like that who are elite on defense in the 1990s like the spurs and the warriors

And the reason LeBron didn't guard KD was because he had such a huge offensive load....it's ridiculous to ask LeBron to do something when Jordan needed to do that because he had Pippen,Grant,Rodman,etc and his opposing team never had a player of Durant's caliber as the sidekick and not to mention the warriors had a DPOY and another great 3 point shooter like Klay on their team too

Jordan never had a defensive series like LeBron had vs Bulls in 2011 or in 2016 vs warriors....Not even close

[Homer38]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

[bledredwine]

In Lebron’s 10 finals, on four occasions, the player Lebron guarded (or chose not to guard at his own position in the cop out against KD) won finals MVP.

So in 40% of his finals appearances, Lebron’s small forward finals matchup won finals MVP. That includes Andre Iguodala. Talk about defensive prowess.

Iggy won the final mvp because he was the only reason why that LeBron did not score 40 points per game in that finals.....The cavs were up 2-1 despite a complete depleted roster before Iggy was in the starting lineup and one of the other reason also why Iggy won the FMVP was because he was able to hit the wide open shot that the cavs were conceded to him

LeBron was 57% from the field and 51% from 3 in 2014....The spurs won because they were 54% from the field and 47% from 3....Jordan never face a offense like that who are elite on defense in the 1990s like the spurs and the warriors

And the reason LeBron didn't guard KD was because he had such a huge offensive load....it's ridiculous to ask LeBron to do something when Jordan needed to do that because he had Pippen,Grant,Rodman,etc and his opposing team never had a player of Durant's caliber as the sidekick and not to mention the warriors had a DPOY and another great 3 point shooter like Klay on their team too

Jordan never had a defensive series like LeBron had vs Bulls in 2011 or in 2016 vs warriors....Not even close

These are excuses.

Of course Lebron was better than Iggy. My point is that when Lebron's guarding these guys, they played better than usual. Remember Jason Terry? Kevin Durant? Iggy and Kawhi? All played above average.

Lebron did not do a good defense job and those were finals series. Against KD, he actually looked awful, leaving him open several times. Defensively, Lebron isn't even close. And that's why he has no defensive player of the year award or 9 time 1st team defense like Jordan, despite playing way more years.

[bledredwine]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

So why does Lebron only have 5 first team defensive appearances in nearly 20 years of playing in the league?

Why no defensive player of the year?

(more excuses?)

[bledredwine]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

Sure. Go ahead and watch Jordan against Clyde, Jordan against the Lakers.. hell any Jordan finals series from the 1st three peat in particular and most playoff series from that era as well. He was a straight up better defender and that's even considered common knowledge in the ignorant media, sorry to say.

[bledredwine]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

So when did Jordan allow his finals matchup to win Finals MVP four times?

You know, in the finals?

Your argument is one series against a small player in the playoffs? Okay.

[Homer38]

In Lebron’s 10 finals, on four occasions, the player Lebron guarded (or chose not to guard at his own position in the cop out against KD) won finals MVP.

So in 40% of his finals appearances, Lebron’s small forward finals matchup won finals MVP. That includes Andre Iguodala. Talk about defensive prowess.

Iggy won the final mvp because he was the only reason why that LeBron did not score 40 points per game in that finals.....The cavs were up 2-1 despite a complete depleted roster before Iggy was in the starting lineup and one of the other reason also why Iggy won the FMVP was because he was able to hit the wide open shot that the cavs were conceded to him

LeBron was 57% from the field and 51% from 3 in 2014....The spurs won because they were 54% from the field and 47% from 3....Jordan never face a offense like that who are elite on defense in the 1990s like the spurs and the warriors

And the reason LeBron didn't guard KD was because he had such a huge offensive load....it's ridiculous to ask LeBron to do something when Jordan needed to do that because he had Pippen,Grant,Rodman,etc and his opposing team never had a player of Durant's caliber as the sidekick and not to mention the warriors had a DPOY and another great 3 point shooter like Klay on their team too

Jordan never had a defensive series like LeBron had vs Bulls in 2011 or in 2016 vs warriors....Not even close

These are excuses.

Of course Lebron was better than Iggy. My point is that when Lebron's guarding these guys, they played better than usual. Remember Jason Terry? Kevin Durant? Iggy and Kawhi? All played above average.

Lebron did not do a good defense job and those were finals series. Against KD, he actually looked awful, leaving him open several times. Defensively, Lebron isn't even close. And that's why he has no defensive player of the year award or 9 time 1st team defense like Jordan, despite playing way more years.

This not excuses,this is fact...Remove the best 2 teammates in the 1990s in any season of Jordan in a single series and he plays against a complete 67 wins teams like the warriors in 2015, I don't think Jordan would have been able to win a single game, much less 2... Winning 2 games in that final was a big accomplishment

[bledredwine]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

And by the way, this is poor logic and can be done 5X as much with Jordan.

When did Lebron ever three peat? Three peat twice?

When did Lebron go 6-0 in the finals without a game 7?

When did Hebron ever win DPOY award?

When did Lebron get 9 time 1st team defense?

When did Lebron win the scoring title 10 times?

and so on.
But my examples are better because they don't revolve around just 1 series of guarding a small player with help of traps from his own team... and Jordan had better series than that defensively anyway. Unlike Lebron, he was a consistently great defender, hence the 9 1st teams.

And those are all more important than whatever Lebron examples you can use (maybe a triple double stat or something less meaningful than winning/achievements)

[Homer38]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

Sure. Go ahead and watch Jordan against Clyde, Jordan against the Lakers.. hell any Jordan finals series from the 1st three peat in particular and most playoff series from that era as well. He was a straight up better defender and that's even considered common knowledge in the ignorant media, sorry to say.

LeBron was still better in those series and Jordan was not even the best players on defense in those teams...Pippen was

[michaelm]

LeBron has no hole of his games outside of free throw shooting....If you want to talk about the mid range,who don't matter much in the current NBA,I can talk of the 3 points shooting of Jordan who was trash for the most part outside of 1996

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

That is true, he is a better PG/playmaker. But why does that matter given NBA basketball is played 5 on 5 ?. LeBron being able to do one or two things Jordan can’t, even ignoring whether Jordan is better at some aspects of the game at which LeBron is still not poor, doesn’t make any difference if a better team can be built around Jordan, cf the 72 win Bulls, the best team ever in the view of many.

[Homer38]

Name me a better defensive series that Jordan had in his career that LeBron had vs rose and the Bulls in 2011 and 2016 vs warriors....It was not the only one by LeBron of course btw

And by the way, this is poor logic and can be done 5X as much with Jordan.

When did Lebron ever three peat? Three peat twice?

When did Lebron go 6-0 in the finals without a game 7?

When did Hebron ever win DPOY award?

When did Lebron get 9 time 1st team defense?

When did Lebron win the scoring title 10 times?

and so on. But my examples are better because they don't revolve around just 1 series of guarding a small player with help of traps from his own team... and Jordan had better series than that defensively anyway. Unlike Lebron, he was a consistently great defender, hence the 9 1st teams.

For the first 2 question,the Bulls had a 55 wins supporting cast without Jordan and the lakers with Magic at their peak,the pistons or the celtics of Larry Bird were no longer dominant...The 1980s was much stronger....Jordan was 14-24 in the playoffs in the 1980s

For the DPOY,LeBron was robbed in 2013 and the one of Jordasn was questionnable with his inflated steal total at home in 1988...Duncan is a all-time defender,much better that both Jordan and James but no DPOY for him

LeBron was not even in the all-team defense in 2016 despite he was elite that year and the cavs were top 10 defense despite a poor supporting cast on defense

the scoring title,Jordan had more FGA per game but LeBron is the all-time scoring leader and top 4 in assists


so on

[bledredwine]

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

That is true, he is a better PG/playmaker. But why does that matter given NBA basketball is played 5 on 5 ?. LeBron being able to do one or two things Jordan can’t, even ignoring whether Jordan is better at some aspects of the game at which LeBron is still not poor, doesn’t make any difference if a better team can be built around Jordan, cf the 72 win Bulls, the best team ever in the view of many.

On top of this, the lebron fan perspective is emphasizing his playmaking, of course. But if the jordan fans start emphasizing just how much better Jordan was as a scorer with his best playoff series, most dominant performances on offense and defense, it’s just unfair.

For example, when did Lebron average 40 in a playoff series? Jordan did this a remarkable 5 times, including once in the finals. Remember how everyone freaked out about Lebron’s raptors series? Imagine a player doing a better version of that in five playoff series, once in the finals.

On reddit, they did a comparison of the most impressive playoff series numbers and Jordan dominated that thread on offense and defense.

[bledredwine]

So to summarize today’s inconsistencies in Lebron-

forty percent of the time, his finals matchup won finals MVP (didn’t limit them on defense) 50% of the time they went off if you include Jason Terry.

Let’s add Lebron shooting .397 from the field the one time he had to force himself to score more in the finals and average Jordan-like numbers of 35 ppg.

Then you have 2011 in general. That’s a lot of inconsistencies in the finals. That’s the difference between these two. Lebron has more vulnerabilities, inconsistencies and weaknesses.

[Homer38]

I'll end with that.

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[michaelm]

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

That is true, he is a better PG/playmaker. But why does that matter given NBA basketball is played 5 on 5 ?. LeBron being able to do one or two things Jordan can’t, even ignoring whether Jordan is better at some aspects of the game at which LeBron is still not poor, doesn’t make any difference if a better team can be built around Jordan, cf the 72 win Bulls, the best team ever in the view of many.

On top of this, the lebron fan perspective is emphasizing his playmaking, of course. But if the jordan fans start emphasizing just how much better Jordan was as a scorer with his best playoff series, most dominant performances on offense and defense, it’s just unfair.

For example, when did Lebron average 40 in a playoff series? Jordan did this a remarkable 5 times, including once in the finals. Remember how everyone freaked out about Lebron’s raptors series? Imagine a player doing a better version of that in five playoff series, once in the finals.

On reddit, they did a comparison of the most impressive playoff series numbers and Jordan dominated that thread on offense and defense.

LeBron probably can defend centers better than Jordan could as well. Why would you want to employ Jordan to defend centers though ?, the Bulls had centers who were relative journeymen who could handle that task.

[bledredwine]

I'll end with that.

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Are you kidding with this? I can make the same comparison with Lebron and Tyson Chandler.
To shoot at higher volume and higher efficiency is pure dominance of the game. It’d be one thing to shoot your team out of the game, but if you’re so dominant that you’re scoring efficiently, you’re a monster.

And that’s why my signature rings true and Lebron can’t buy a bucket in the last moments, Jordan shoots nearly 50% in those situations. It’s also why lebron shot .397 from the floor in the finals when he couldn’t cherry pick, and is why he absolutely sucked in 2011.

It’s also why durant absolutely slaughtered Lebron’s scoring performance in the finals both from volume and efficiency

Lebron is no Jordan. Thats for sure.

and this fits into category two: excuses
by the way. But I look forward to the next longevity/excuse based stat.

And since you love longevity stats, why don’t you bring up Lebron having the most missed field goals of all time as well?

On a lighter funnier note, this is the second time you’ve said you’d “end” and brother, both endings leave a lot to be desired

[lessthanjake]

In Lebron’s 10 finals, on four occasions, the player Lebron guarded (or chose not to guard at his own position in the cop out against KD) won finals MVP.

So in 40% of his finals appearances, Lebron’s small forward finals matchup won finals MVP. That includes Andre Iguodala. Talk about defensive prowess.

Iggy won the final mvp because he was the only reason why that LeBron did not score 40 points per game in that finals.....The cavs were up 2-1 despite a complete depleted roster before Iggy was in the starting lineup and one of the other reason also why Iggy won the FMVP was because he was able to hit the wide open shot that the cavs were conceded to him

I think a really underrated part of Iguodala winning Finals MVP was that he also was the 3rd leading scorer in the series. If he’d scored anywhere near his season-average of 8 points a game, he really would not have been Finals MVP. Instead, he scored 16.3 points a game—which was easily his highest-scoring scoring average of any playoff series in his entire time on the Warriors. And he did it on pretty high efficiency (highest TS% of any player with meaningful minutes in the entire series, except for Mozgov). I’m in the camp that thinks Steph should’ve been Finals MVP, but Iguodala doing abnormally well offensively definitely had a lot to do with him getting it.

LeBron was 57% from the field and 51% from 3 in 2014....The spurs won because they were 54% from the field and 47% from 3....Jordan never face a offense like that who are elite on defense in the 1990s like the spurs and the warriors

LeBron scored very efficiently in the 2014 Finals, though his playmaking was definitely subpar for him (both these things were probably at least in part a result of the Spurs defensive gameplan). The overall result was that the Heat did not have a very good offensive performance overall. But it’d be harsh to really blame that on LeBron, and you’re right that the Spurs won so easily because they shot incredibly well. But who had the highest TS% on the Spurs? It was Kawhi Leonard—with a massive 75.3% TS%. Like with Iguodala, that was LeBron’s man (though obviously with switches no one is someone’s man all the time). You suggest the Spurs offense was just too good, but they scored way more efficiently against the Heat than they did in any of their prior series. And Kawhi definitely ate more against the Heat than in any other series—in fact, Kawhi had had a genuinely pretty rough series in the conference finals against the Thunder. And it’s worth noting that this came after a season in which impact data tells us LeBron was mediocre defensively.

Jordan never had a defensive series like LeBron had vs Bulls in 2011 or in 2016 vs warriors....Not even close

Not sure that’s really true, but to some extent we don’t really have existing data for Jordan’s individual defensive performances to back up an argument either way on that. What people are talking about here is consistency though. The Bulls were a consistently great defensive team, and Jordan played consistently well on the defensive end. That’s not actually the case with LeBron. He could play really well defensively, but he could also be bad defensively—and the downstream effect of this is that Jordan’s teams were more consistent defensively. Yes, part of that is Jordan’s supporting cast usually having more defensive talent (though the flip side is having less offensive talent, by the way), but it isn’t just about that. Whether it’s due to energy-conservation or something else, LeBron definitely was a less consistent defensive player.

[Homer38]

If Jordan is a good 3 points shooter because of some finals stats,what about the free throw shooting of LeBron?

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[Jamaaliver]

GOAT Story:

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