Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[Muzbar]

Giddey is currently the Bulls best player

comfortably at that . Pretty good haul for an aging defensive specialist . Maybe ak isn't as bad as we make him out to be .

No, he is.

[Ccwatercraft]

Fun to watch Giddey adjust to being keyed on. Mainly lost of assists in the first half and then the defensive pressure eases in the 2nd half and he gets more shots.

He missed a couple bunnies against the Raps he normally makes. Close to being another giant game with a couple more makes close and another 3 going down.

He’s improving. Zo is a good fit with him. Would love to see a lib threat C that can also rim protect with Giddey. Could open up a lot.

I think Collins is doing a great job as a rim running big. Not a lob threat, but cuts and run the floor unlike Vuc which can get him 3 or 4 easy baskets a night. I would be perfectly content going into next with Collins as our starting Center. And he’s only 27 so he could be here for a while.

Collins
Buzelis
Ball
Giddey
Coby or Ayo

Of course if we luck into a top 4 pick that guy will or rather should be starting over someone.

I wouldn't be overjoyed with Collins at C, but I wouldn't be disappointed either. Vuc/coll together are expensive at 40mil but then they both are expiring.

Smith at the 4 is weak with buz, but not the worst pair ever.

Those 4 big men doesn't really scare anyone.

Moving vuc in the offseason weakens an already sketchy group

Giddey, it's just a question of cost.

[RSP83]

Giddey is shooting career high 38% from 3 at close to 4 attempts per game.

[Stratmaster]

My question has never been he can’t fill up a stat sheet. I know he can do that. Can he produce in context of winning. The answer is still no. When there’s other talented players around him he tends to shrink because he can’t create his own shot off the bounce. He doesn’t have the supplementary skills to be an effective player if the offense isn’t revolving around him. Personally I would have taken the draft pick.

This is what I will now forever call the "Zach Lavine principle". Take a guy. Surround him with bad players. Give him bad coaching. Then question whether he can contribute to winning.

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

Giddey is running the point. It was the whole purpose in bringing here. Of course he has the ball in his hands. What about his assist totals currently would indicate to you that they would suddenly go down if he had better, elite scorers, around him? Why would you want to try to make Giddey an off-ball scorer?

[WindyCityBorn]

My question has never been he can’t fill up a stat sheet. I know he can do that. Can he produce in context of winning. The answer is still no. When there’s other talented players around him he tends to shrink because he can’t create his own shot off the bounce. He doesn’t have the supplementary skills to be an effective player if the offense isn’t revolving around him. Personally I would have taken the draft pick.

This is what I will now forever call the "Zach Lavine principle". Take a guy. Surround him with bad players. Give him bad coaching. Then question whether he can contribute to winning.

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

I don’t think it’s about whether those players are good. It’s about how ball dominant they are. As long as he gets to be lead facilitator of the offense or at least share that role I think he will be fine.

[WindyCityBorn]

This is what I will now forever call the "Zach Lavine principle". Take a guy. Surround him with bad players. Give him bad coaching. Then question whether he can contribute to winning.

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

Giddey is running the point. It was the whole purpose in bringing here. Of course he has the ball in his hands. What about his assist totals currently would indicate to you that they would suddenly go down if he had better, elite scorers, around him? Why would you want to try to make Giddey an off-ball scorer?

Exactly. He is a true point guard. As long he keeps scoring efficiently you can build a great team using his skill sets. He isn’t meant to be the leading scoring. He makes other players look better. He is making Collins look really good right now.

[WindyCityBorn]

Fun to watch Giddey adjust to being keyed on. Mainly lost of assists in the first half and then the defensive pressure eases in the 2nd half and he gets more shots.

He missed a couple bunnies against the Raps he normally makes. Close to being another giant game with a couple more makes close and another 3 going down.

He’s improving. Zo is a good fit with him. Would love to see a lib threat C that can also rim protect with Giddey. Could open up a lot.

I think Collins is doing a great job as a rim running big. Not a lob threat, but cuts and run the floor unlike Vuc which can get him 3 or 4 easy baskets a night. I would be perfectly content going into next with Collins as our starting Center. And he’s only 27 so he could be here for a while.

Collins
Buzelis
Ball
Giddey
Coby or Ayo

Of course if we luck into a top 4 pick that guy will or rather should be starting over someone.

Unless it’s Flagg that rookie will be coming off the bench and getting the Buz treatment.

Collins is a floor raiser energy big. Terrible for a tank but he will miss lots of games due injury like always so he’s fine.

That team above is horrible for a tank and a playoff birth. Same middle BS. We need to trade Zo Vuc and Coby to truly be top 4 team next season.

That’s probably a 20 to 25 win team. You gotta remember we are 2-7 post Zach. We are being competitive in most games, but still losing at high clip. It’s not our fault a sub 30 win team is still making the playoffs. NBA should have never implemented this playin garbage.

Also we don’t necessarily need to be horrible next season. If Buzelis pans out and we luck into a top prospect this Summer our core is set.

[Chi town]

I think Collins is doing a great job as a rim running big. Not a lob threat, but cuts and run the floor unlike Vuc which can get him 3 or 4 easy baskets a night. I would be perfectly content going into next with Collins as our starting Center. And he’s only 27 so he could be here for a while.

Collins
Buzelis
Ball
Giddey
Coby or Ayo

Of course if we luck into a top 4 pick that guy will or rather should be starting over someone.

Unless it’s Flagg that rookie will be coming off the bench and getting the Buz treatment.

Collins is a floor raiser energy big. Terrible for a tank but he will miss lots of games due injury like always so he’s fine.

That team above is horrible for a tank and a playoff birth. Same middle BS. We need to trade Zo Vuc and Coby to truly be top 4 team next season.

That’s probably a 20 to 25 win team. You gotta remember we are 2-7 post Zach. We are being competitive in most games, but still losing at high clip. It’s not our fault a sub 30 win team is still making the playoffs. NBA should have never implemented this playin garbage.

Also we don’t necessarily need to be horrible next season. If Buzelis pans out and we luck into a top prospect this Summer our core is set.

We are a lot better without Vuc. Zo is improving. Coby looking better next to Giddey running the show. Huerter making 3s. We will win too many games to be bottom 4 without trading those three

Unless this rookie we draft this year is the best rookie of all time we will suck next season after trades. We need to because AJ DP and Ament are that good. Absolutely worth tanking for.

AK will do the half measure BS as always. Trade Vuc. Keep Coby and Zo. Posture fkr the play in next season and then trade our pick and expirings at the deadline for a fake star to try and be a playoff team.

[kodo]

This is what I will now forever call the "Zach Lavine principle". Take a guy. Surround him with bad players. Give him bad coaching. Then question whether he can contribute to winning.

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

I don’t think it’s about whether those players are good. It’s about how ball dominant they. As long as he gets to be lead facilitator of the offense or at least share that role I think he will be fine.

And we saw him elite players around him anyway. That team got 57 wins. And Giddey was one of the best contributors.
SGA was +8, the clear best player
Chet, Giddey, and WIlliams all were ~ +5.
Everyone else on OKC was +1 to 0 and some even negative.

Chet in particular was pretty unhappy with the trade.

[MrSparkle]

Giddey’s a good player. Dunno why anyone’s entertaining the argument that “he sucks.” He’s clearly a high-level PnR talent. If his recent scoring/shooting becomes consistent, he’d be an all-star - although that can be said for a lot of guys (Coby had an incredible month or two). But despite the shooting dips, he clearly made the Bulls offense better this season, even though Demar was a more reliable scorer.

Three issues with paying him big bucks: injury proneness with his style of overcompensating his limbs/falls due to awkward athleticism, and below-average defense and 3P shooting. Which to me, 3 issues means a guy shouldn’t get more than $20M salary guaranteed long-term.

I think OKC made the right move. Caruso will help more in the playoffs. If Giddey becomes our Harden (I don’t see it!! 0.5% chance), then god bless Presti. But my hunch is Caruso will be more helpful for their finals run. Only caveat being their core is so ridiculously young. Could see them crumbling in the 2nd round or WCFs, in a disappointing way… and I wouldn’t think Giddey would matter in either scenario.

Raw numbers indicate Thunder and Cavs are smoking the entire league. That should be the final. But deep playoffs are different- could see Warriors, Lakers or Nuggets sneaking all the way here.

[drosestruts]

How long does Flagg's age give him extra magical potential?

Not sure of your point here. Age is hugely important for projecting future improvement. LeBron projected to be an All Timer not because he was the best rookie ever -- Tim Duncan, to name one, was clearly better -- but because he was that level of good at that age. The same logic applies to Flagg being (arguably) the single best player in college hoops this year, while 17 when the season began.

So Flagg does more than AD and Zion but Zion and AD still have a bigger impact?

My point is that Flagg plays a different role than those guys, so he's not comparable to them. As a side note, I don't get too worked up about this BPM vs. that one. Zion was better as a college freshman than Steph was according to BPM. Yeah OK. Anybody want Zion instead of Steph for the pro career?

I see your LeBron and raise you a Sebastian Telfair.

And this isn't to dump on Flagg who's the clear #1 in this draft. His age is rather far down the list on reasons I would draft him #1

[Jcool0]

How long does Flagg's age give him extra magical potential?

Not sure of your point here. Age is hugely important for projecting future improvement. LeBron projected to be an All Timer not because he was the best rookie ever -- Tim Duncan, to name one, was clearly better -- but because he was that level of good at that age. The same logic applies to Flagg being (arguably) the single best player in college hoops this year, while 17 when the season began.

So Flagg does more than AD and Zion but Zion and AD still have a bigger impact?

My point is that Flagg plays a different role than those guys, so he's not comparable to them. As a side note, I don't get too worked up about this BPM vs. that one. Zion was better as a college freshman than Steph was according to BPM. Yeah OK. Anybody want Zion instead of Steph for the pro career?

I see your LeBron and raise you a Sebastian Telfair.

And this isn't to dump on Flagg who's the clear #1 in this draft. His age is rather far down the list on reasons I would draft him #1

Telfair was 6' and 160lbs.

[drosestruts]

Not sure of your point here. Age is hugely important for projecting future improvement. LeBron projected to be an All Timer not because he was the best rookie ever -- Tim Duncan, to name one, was clearly better -- but because he was that level of good at that age. The same logic applies to Flagg being (arguably) the single best player in college hoops this year, while 17 when the season began.



My point is that Flagg plays a different role than those guys, so he's not comparable to them. As a side note, I don't get too worked up about this BPM vs. that one. Zion was better as a college freshman than Steph was according to BPM. Yeah OK. Anybody want Zion instead of Steph for the pro career?

I see your LeBron and raise you a Sebastian Telfair.

And this isn't to dump on Flagg who's the clear #1 in this draft. His age is rather far down the list on reasons I would draft him #1

Telfair was 6' and 160lbs.

So Telfair wasn't a super hyped high school player projected to be a great NBA player that shared magazine covers with LeBron in highschool? Or had his own standalone covers with Sports Illustrated?

[greenwing]

Giddey's 3P% has improved every year in the league and he's only 22. His scoring numbers have also greatly improved since the Lavine trade. A 22-year-old 6'8'' point guard who can shoot from downtown and can rebound on paper is the type of player you wouldn't be upset with in a rebuild. The Bulls need to extend him this offseason.

[Ice Man]

I see your LeBron and raise you a Sebastian Telfair.

I'm gonna give you points for bringing up that name. Sebastian has no more to do with Cooper Flagg than he does with Mother Teresa but hey, I do appreciate the memory. Made me laugh.

[Jcool0]

I see your LeBron and raise you a Sebastian Telfair.

And this isn't to dump on Flagg who's the clear #1 in this draft. His age is rather far down the list on reasons I would draft him #1

Telfair was 6' and 160lbs.

So Telfair wasn't a super hyped high school player projected to be a great NBA player that shared magazine covers with LeBron in highschool? Or had his own standalone covers with Sports Illustrated?

He was the 6th rated high school recruit. Nice but nothing special. And he was drafted 13th in the NBA.

[sco]

Can we just stop it with the Cooper Flagg debate. We aren't tanking. And can we not disrespect Mr. Giddey by soiling his thread with it.

[PJSteven22]

This is what I will now forever call the "Zach Lavine principle". Take a guy. Surround him with bad players. Give him bad coaching. Then question whether he can contribute to winning.

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

Giddey is running the point. It was the whole purpose in bringing here. Of course he has the ball in his hands. What about his assist totals currently would indicate to you that they would suddenly go down if he had better, elite scorers, around him? Why would you want to try to make Giddey an off-ball scorer?

It a conundrum is that while he’s good on ball, can he be effective off ball. Also can he be an effective shooter/scorer to keep the defense honest. We still need answers to both of those questions? If he has the ball all the time and doesn’t improve his shooting. Good defenses can give him a cushion to take away the drive and take away the pass. Limiting his effectiveness. That’s why he has to become an efficient scorer from mid range and deep. If you at good modern PGs, all can score/shoot when needed. Will he be able to do it? Only time will tell.

[PJSteven22]

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

I don’t think it’s about whether those players are good. It’s about how ball dominant they. As long as he gets to be lead facilitator of the offense or at least share that role I think he will be fine.

And we saw him elite players around him anyway. That team got 57 wins. And Giddey was one of the best contributors.
SGA was +8, the clear best player
Chet, Giddey, and WIlliams all were ~ +5.
Everyone else on OKC was +1 to 0 and some even negative.

Chet in particular was pretty unhappy with the trade.

If he was one of their main contributors why would they trade him? They’re a better team without him.

[jordanwilliams6]

I don’t think it’s about whether those players are good. It’s about how ball dominant they. As long as he gets to be lead facilitator of the offense or at least share that role I think he will be fine.

And we saw him elite players around him anyway. That team got 57 wins. And Giddey was one of the best contributors.
SGA was +8, the clear best player
Chet, Giddey, and WIlliams all were ~ +5.
Everyone else on OKC was +1 to 0 and some even negative.

Chet in particular was pretty unhappy with the trade.

If he was one of their main contributors why would they trade him? They’re a better team without him.

Well what's clear is that Giddey needs to the primary ball handler to be effective and is NOT a complimentary player for guys like SGA & Williams.

They are gunning for a championship so decided to flip Giddey for one of the best complimentary players in the league. It doesn't make AC better than Giddey but it does for OKC.