PG: KNICKS 'Maul' The Grizzlies: Brunson/OG/Mitch Edition

[3toheadmelo]

Our defense has been super bad.

[robillionaire]

He lost his spot in the rotation last year also even with Randle out and Bogey not playing well. It didn't seem like they were in a rush to bring him back this off-season despite iHart signing with OKC and Mitch injured. He had to waive his no-trade clause on the 1 year deal. I truly thought they mostly brought him back when they couldn't find any other options for their space under the apron to hold down the fort until Mitch came back and to be $6M of tradeable salary. I never expected they would keep him all season just to bench him once again. We shall see how Thibs handles his minute this time with Mitch back.

He’s not a very good basketball player imo. Sometimes we have no other choice and he comes in and contributes but the fewer minutes he plays the better

Personally i'm fine with Precious as a minutes eater in the regular season but he is not someone I would want to have to rely on a consistent basis. I'm just wondering why they kept him through the trade deadline if they are going to bench him once again. He was the biggest tradeable salary of a non-core piece if they knew they could/would not trade Mitch. He could walk for nothing this off-season. Maybe he had no trade value.

We at least need him as an insurance policy for when Mitch gets injured . Same as last year

[JayTWill]

He’s more of a 4th option rather than a 3rd option and that’s kind of the problem. What mismatches does he create offensively for any matchup? None. He’s heavily reliant on a system or other players to create looks for him and struggles to do any of it on his own. This is not good for a deep playoff run when the team overall lacks ball handling and shot creation. As Brunson will see more traps, it will force guys like Bridges to create for themselves and he’s just not good at that. You look at teams like Boston and Cleveland, their 3rd guy is KP and Mobley. They have multiple guards/wings who can create for themselves and others and they have versatility that we just don’t.

Bridges would be ok if we had that 2nd perimeter guy but we don’t and he has to be it and that’s just not his strength

4th option? He is not an isolation player but he seems to be able to get to his spots in the midrange with the use of a screen where he is highly efficient. Even if he couldn't create his own offense and was almost completely dependent on the system and others to create offense for him how does that make him a bad 3rd option? Isn't that the point of having an offensive system and options 1 and 2?

I agree that the team could use another ball handler/shot creator since they don't really have an offensive system and KAT doesn't really do that as a 2nd option but that still doesn't make Mikal a bad 3rd option. That just makes the Knicks a poorly constructed team in some ways. KP is assisted on 85% of his shots. Mikal is assisted on 77% of his shots. KP is dependent on others creating for him too. He is great in his role when he is on the court. Mikal needs to improve his above the break 3 but there have been plenty of games where he actually looks better when he has a larger role in the offense.

Expecting the guy that is behind Brunson, Hart, KAT, Payne and McBride in ball handling responsibility to be creating offense for himself and others seems odd. Shouldn't the guys that actually handle the ball be better at creating?

He didn't have a great game from 3 yesterday with a few difficult attempts but where in these highlights do you see a guy struggling to get his shot off or dribble without almost turning it over? He is actually performing better with more dribbles in these clips. He is not someone that is just going to hijack the offense. He plays his role.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022400856&PlayerID=1628969&RangeType=0&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612752&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

Because look at the competition. Boston for example has how many guards and forwards that can put the ball on the floor, drive, shoot, pass? You bringing up KP which is a great example. He is giving Boston more production in only 28 minutes than Mikal is doing in 38 minutes. So yes when you want to evaluate what the Knicks are missing and what Mikal fails to provide then yes for our team he’s not a good 3rd option. We need more from that role than he can provide. And no I don’t mean a random night against Charlotte or Philly, I mean against your top competitors who you likely will have to go through in the playoffs. The red flags are all there right now so I don’t expect things to change much in the playoffs.

The Celtics have a better constructed roster from top to bottom. Could the Knicks have a better constructed roster? Yes but why would it be the 3rd option's responsibility to fill all of the holes in the roster?

The question is what role did they bring Mikal in to play, is he being used in that role and how is he performing in that role. If you want Mikal to create more for himself and others you may want to talk to Thibs because he is not being used in that role. And you may want to tell him to lower his minutes and take some of the defensive responsibility of him because no one plays high level defense against the toughest matchups every game for 38 minutes. Forget about asking for more on the offensive end too.

[JayTWill]

Our Bridges and Towns are under attack by Terrible People, like Ukraine.

you can add OG to that list, too

we had people calling him jared jeffries in the game thread

What's uglier? Mikal's jump shot or OG's handle under pressure?

[dakomish23]

That 8-second violation of Morant stopped by Mikal worths 5.5 1st round picks.

And again ouR troll is nowhere to be seen in our win.

Which one? There’s quite a few when it comes to Mikal

[dakomish23]

Our Bridges and Towns are under attack by Terrible People, like Ukraine.

you can add OG to that list, too

we had people calling him jared jeffries in the game thread

What's uglier? Mikal's jump shot or OG's handle under pressure?

[dakomish23]

https://youtu.be/

Watch on YouTube

?si=_cBOJhqASllk1YmF

Two very good teams. This could have been an L Morant missed a layup he hits 99/100x. Big clutch buckets from the captain. OG was in the perfect spot for that dump off. It’s easy to see why Villanova won so much. These wings are always moving off the ball

[Synciere]

Surprised NoDope hasn’t said anything. He’s Mitch’s biggest fan

My guy nodope is going through a rough patch right now. His takes on KAT being able to anchor a defense at the 5 aged like milk, the whole board is screaming we need mitch, and most importantly sham gets to run his victory laps. Praying for my dawg nodope to get through this difficult time.

Absolutely petty.

And I’m here for it.

[Synciere]

I'm so happy Mitch learned how to dribble

Mitch still looked a little chunky to me, but I guess I’m alone in that..

[Synciere]

Besides Brunson and OG being clutch at the end, the real difference maker in this game was Deuce.

Who should be starting.

Deuce has been playing very well this year. As someone who wasn’t as high on him as others earlier on, I think Thibs is handling him right by keeping him in his current role.. it ain’t broke; don’t try to fix it. He’s not our problem..

[Guano]

Our Bridges and Towns are under attack by Terrible People, like Ukraine.

you can add OG to that list, too

we had people calling him jared jeffries in the game thread

What's uglier? Mikal's jump shot or OG's handle under pressure?

Tough but I'd go with mikals 3ball. Og is what he is - a MLB who decided to hoop. mikal willingly fcked up his shot.

[WaltFrazier]

Besides Brunson and OG being clutch at the end, the real difference maker in this game was Deuce.

Who should be starting.

Deuce has been playing very well this year. As someone who wasn’t as high on him as others earlier on, I think Thibs is handling him right by keeping him in his current role.. it ain’t broke; don’t try to fix it. He’s not our problem..

I don't think Deuce should be starting but he should be finishing games like last night. Not just for defense, but he should have been on for Hart when we had the ball too. He spreads the floor and can shoot when the ball is kicked to him, whereas Josh hesitates and doesn't want the shot

[Reign23]

Our Bridges and Towns are under attack by Terrible People, like Ukraine.

you can add OG to that list, too

we had people calling him jared jeffries in the game thread

just curious, who did that?

[Chanel Bomber]

The Knicks had their best record after 55 games in almost 3 decades playing KAT at the 5.

Sure, the Knicks are a tier below the top 3 teams in the league currently. But to act like it has been a disaster is completely detached from reality.

There's always a tradeoff between offense and defense depending on where you play KAT. What matters is the point differential between the two. I guess we'll see how two-big lineups will perform on the whole, but the offense will obviously take a hit if you play KAT at the 4 vs the 5, even as the defense improves. The question is whether the tradeoff is beneficial - I have my doubts.

Having a rim protector is not some panacea that only solves our problems but doesn't hurt the team in other areas.

It is not really about rim protection though. I was watching the minutes that Mitch played when KAT was in foul trouble and he was consistently rotating out of drop coverage to the correct person when Memphis would swing the ball out of the pick and roll. In other games without Mitch or with KAT on the floor as center there would be wide open threes either on the corner or the elbow which was usually a blown rotation by KAT or someone making up for his slow feet. Mitch was obviously winded and a little out of game shape, but if he fixes our rotations by doing better drop coverage as a C than KAT, then we might have a chance against 3 point chuckers like Boston. The rim protection is a secondary bonus.

Just another note, Precious Achiuwa does great with the rotations on defense as well, but he's a below average rebounder and fails to end possessions. Mitch brings elite rebounding + rotation so that we don't have to rely on KAT to do it. After 50+ games I now understand why Minnesota brought in Gobert and I am happy to see Mitch moving around comfortably to play that same role.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Mitch is a highly impactful all-around defender. KAT is a minus all-around defender.

I think a KAT-Mitch frontcourt is worth a look. In a vacuum, it worked in Minnesota with Gobert. Different personnel around them so there's no guarantee it will translate with the Knicks.

My point was moreso that by starting Mitch at the 5, the offense will also take a significant hit. And it's something that seems to get lost in the "need to play KAT at the 4" argument.

The real question is do the gains on defense outweigh the losses on offense (or vice versa).

As far as the drop coverage is concerned, a team like Boston could run the 1-4 pick-and-roll instead and leave Mitch on the perimeter guarding KP so that he can't roam around the basket.

Our only issues this year have come against the top 3 teams in the league, and besides Cleveland with Jarrett Allen, the Celtics and Thunder could easily pull Mitch away from the basket while still putting Brunson and KAT in the PNR. Having Mitch on the floor would help to some degree regardless, but I think in those matchups his impact on defense could turn out to be fairly minor in relation to how he'd negatively affect the offense.

[Handledatruth]

The Knicks had their best record after 55 games in almost 3 decades playing KAT at the 5.

Sure, the Knicks are a tier below the top 3 teams in the league currently. But to act like it has been a disaster is completely detached from reality.

There's always a tradeoff between offense and defense depending on where you play KAT. What matters is the point differential between the two. I guess we'll see how two-big lineups will perform on the whole, but the offense will obviously take a hit if you play KAT at the 4 vs the 5, even as the defense improves. The question is whether the tradeoff is beneficial - I have my doubts.

Having a rim protector is not some panacea that only solves our problems but doesn't hurt the team in other areas.

It is not really about rim protection though. I was watching the minutes that Mitch played when KAT was in foul trouble and he was consistently rotating out of drop coverage to the correct person when Memphis would swing the ball out of the pick and roll. In other games without Mitch or with KAT on the floor as center there would be wide open threes either on the corner or the elbow which was usually a blown rotation by KAT or someone making up for his slow feet. Mitch was obviously winded and a little out of game shape, but if he fixes our rotations by doing better drop coverage as a C than KAT, then we might have a chance against 3 point chuckers like Boston. The rim protection is a secondary bonus.

Just another note, Precious Achiuwa does great with the rotations on defense as well, but he's a below average rebounder and fails to end possessions. Mitch brings elite rebounding + rotation so that we don't have to rely on KAT to do it. After 50+ games I now understand why Minnesota brought in Gobert and I am happy to see Mitch moving around comfortably to play that same role.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Mitch is a highly impactful all-around defender. KAT is a minus all-around defender.

I think a KAT-Mitch frontcourt is worth a look. In a vacuum, it worked in Minnesota with Gobert. Different personnel around them so there's no guarantee it will translate with the Knicks.

My point was moreso that by starting Mitch at the 5, the offense will also take a significant hit. And it's something that seems to get lost in the "need to play KAT at the 4" argument.

The real question is do the gains on defense outweigh the losses on offense (or vice versa).

As far as the drop coverage is concerned, a team like Boston could run the 1-4 pick-and-roll instead and leave Mitch on the perimeter guarding KP so that he can't roam around the basket.

Our only issues this year have come against the top 3 teams in the league, and besides Cleveland with Jarrett Allen, the Celtics and Thunder could easily pull Mitch away from the basket while still putting Brunson and KAT in the PNR. Having Mitch on the floor would help to some degree regardless, but I think in those matchups his impact on defense could turn out to be fairly minor in relation to how he'd negatively affect the offense.

I get what you mean. I was a little encouraged by the fact that Mitch looked comfortable around the basket after a catch. It’s rare to see him post a mismatch and finish. I’m hoping he can pour in an efficient 10-12 ppg and add a few possessions with offensive rebounding. That in itself can counter some of the issues he brings with floor spacing. At the very least it will be better than when Mitch and Randle were on the floor. Hopefully.

[Kampuchea]

Our Bridges and Towns are under attack by Terrible People, like Ukraine.

you can add OG to that list, too

we had people calling him jared jeffries in the game thread

just curious, who did that?

Damn, it was mpharris.

viewtopic.php?t=2443489&start=580


Adding mpharris to the list

[thebuzzardman]

Our defense has been super bad.

Must be Thibs fault

[thebuzzardman]

Besides Brunson and OG being clutch at the end, the real difference maker in this game was Deuce.

Who should be starting.

Deuce has been playing very well this year. As someone who wasn’t as high on him as others earlier on, I think Thibs is handling him right by keeping him in his current role.. it ain’t broke; don’t try to fix it. He’s not our problem..

I don't think Deuce should be starting but he should be finishing games like last night. Not just for defense, but he should have been on for Hart when we had the ball too. He spreads the floor and can shoot when the ball is kicked to him, whereas Josh hesitates and doesn't want the shot

Brunson
McBride
Bridges
OG
KAT

Bench:
Hart
Mitch
Payne

Limited situational playing time: Precious, Shamet or TJ Warren or Chumba or McCullar


McBride is the only thing the Knicks have that remotely resembles what Donte brought last year, but he brings MUCH better defense.

[rajajackal]

The Knicks had their best record after 55 games in almost 3 decades playing KAT at the 5.

Sure, the Knicks are a tier below the top 3 teams in the league currently. But to act like it has been a disaster is completely detached from reality.

There's always a tradeoff between offense and defense depending on where you play KAT. What matters is the point differential between the two. I guess we'll see how two-big lineups will perform on the whole, but the offense will obviously take a hit if you play KAT at the 4 vs the 5, even as the defense improves. The question is whether the tradeoff is beneficial - I have my doubts.

Having a rim protector is not some panacea that only solves our problems but doesn't hurt the team in other areas.

It is not really about rim protection though. I was watching the minutes that Mitch played when KAT was in foul trouble and he was consistently rotating out of drop coverage to the correct person when Memphis would swing the ball out of the pick and roll. In other games without Mitch or with KAT on the floor as center there would be wide open threes either on the corner or the elbow which was usually a blown rotation by KAT or someone making up for his slow feet. Mitch was obviously winded and a little out of game shape, but if he fixes our rotations by doing better drop coverage as a C than KAT, then we might have a chance against 3 point chuckers like Boston. The rim protection is a secondary bonus.

Just another note, Precious Achiuwa does great with the rotations on defense as well, but he's a below average rebounder and fails to end possessions. Mitch brings elite rebounding + rotation so that we don't have to rely on KAT to do it. After 50+ games I now understand why Minnesota brought in Gobert and I am happy to see Mitch moving around comfortably to play that same role.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Mitch is a highly impactful all-around defender. KAT is a minus all-around defender.

I think a KAT-Mitch frontcourt is worth a look. In a vacuum, it worked in Minnesota with Gobert. Different personnel around them so there's no guarantee it will translate with the Knicks.

My point was moreso that by starting Mitch at the 5, the offense will also take a significant hit. And it's something that seems to get lost in the "need to play KAT at the 4" argument.

The real question is do the gains on defense outweigh the losses on offense (or vice versa).

As far as the drop coverage is concerned, a team like Boston could run the 1-4 pick-and-roll instead and leave Mitch on the perimeter guarding KP so that he can't roam around the basket.

Our only issues this year have come against the top 3 teams in the league, and besides Cleveland with Jarrett Allen, the Celtics and Thunder could easily pull Mitch away from the basket while still putting Brunson and KAT in the PNR. Having Mitch on the floor would help to some degree regardless, but I think in those matchups his impact on defense could turn out to be fairly minor in relation to how he'd negatively affect the offense.

i think the obvious answer is, yes. hart for mitch in the SL significantly improves the defense and isn't a notable loss of spacing. in fact, the other 2 wings might find more room to spread their...wings sliding down a spot, being big at that position, and only having to compete with brunson (pg) and kat (big man) for touches

[Gravy]

The Knicks had their best record after 55 games in almost 3 decades playing KAT at the 5.

Sure, the Knicks are a tier below the top 3 teams in the league currently. But to act like it has been a disaster is completely detached from reality.

There's always a tradeoff between offense and defense depending on where you play KAT. What matters is the point differential between the two. I guess we'll see how two-big lineups will perform on the whole, but the offense will obviously take a hit if you play KAT at the 4 vs the 5, even as the defense improves. The question is whether the tradeoff is beneficial - I have my doubts.

Having a rim protector is not some panacea that only solves our problems but doesn't hurt the team in other areas.

It is not really about rim protection though. I was watching the minutes that Mitch played when KAT was in foul trouble and he was consistently rotating out of drop coverage to the correct person when Memphis would swing the ball out of the pick and roll. In other games without Mitch or with KAT on the floor as center there would be wide open threes either on the corner or the elbow which was usually a blown rotation by KAT or someone making up for his slow feet. Mitch was obviously winded and a little out of game shape, but if he fixes our rotations by doing better drop coverage as a C than KAT, then we might have a chance against 3 point chuckers like Boston. The rim protection is a secondary bonus.

Just another note, Precious Achiuwa does great with the rotations on defense as well, but he's a below average rebounder and fails to end possessions. Mitch brings elite rebounding + rotation so that we don't have to rely on KAT to do it. After 50+ games I now understand why Minnesota brought in Gobert and I am happy to see Mitch moving around comfortably to play that same role.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Mitch is a highly impactful all-around defender. KAT is a minus all-around defender.

I think a KAT-Mitch frontcourt is worth a look. In a vacuum, it worked in Minnesota with Gobert. Different personnel around them so there's no guarantee it will translate with the Knicks.

My point was moreso that by starting Mitch at the 5, the offense will also take a significant hit. And it's something that seems to get lost in the "need to play KAT at the 4" argument.

The real question is do the gains on defense outweigh the losses on offense (or vice versa).

As far as the drop coverage is concerned, a team like Boston could run the 1-4 pick-and-roll instead and leave Mitch on the perimeter guarding KP so that he can't roam around the basket.

Our only issues this year have come against the top 3 teams in the league, and besides Cleveland with Jarrett Allen, the Celtics and Thunder could easily pull Mitch away from the basket while still putting Brunson and KAT in the PNR. Having Mitch on the floor would help to some degree regardless, but I think in those matchups his impact on defense could turn out to be fairly minor in relation to how he'd negatively affect the offense.

Last season the offense was ranked 7th while missing Randle and OG for half the season. The year before it was ranked 4th. We tend to have good offenses with either Mitch or Ihart so it should not be much worse. The defense has been so bad with KAT that the offense needed to be record breaking just to keep up.

It was frustrating watching the constant breakdowns in rotations and it must not be fun for the players to have to spend so much energy trying to cover their man and KAT's man too. They looked far more confident when Mitch was on the court, he makes it easier for his teammates.