Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[PJSteven22]

And we saw him elite players around him anyway. That team got 57 wins. And Giddey was one of the best contributors.
SGA was +8, the clear best player
Chet, Giddey, and WIlliams all were ~ +5.
Everyone else on OKC was +1 to 0 and some even negative.

Chet in particular was pretty unhappy with the trade.

If he was one of their main contributors why would they trade him? They’re a better team without him.

Well what's clear is that Giddey needs to the primary ball handler to be effective and is NOT a complimentary player for guys like SGA & Williams.

They are gunning for a championship so decided to flip Giddey for one of the best complimentary players in the league. It doesn't make AC better than Giddey but it does for OKC.

Read my other comment about Giddey being a primary ball hence the title of this thread. AC is a more impactful player than Giddey currently but I digress because they are two different players with two different roles.

[DrModesty]

Giddey can play alongside a player like an SGA. We saw this in his second year when he played with both SGA and Jalen Williams and was putting up 17/8/6. The thing is that Giddey was the second ballhandler that year. However, it became obvious that Jalen Williams was going to be a star, and it already was obvious that SGA was one. So, because Jalen Williams was improving so sharply and because Giddey was less of a sure thing, he was the one forced to make sacrifices.

You can have Giddey as the secondary guy, but you can't put him any lower than that. He isn't a role player/tertiary player.

[Jcool0]

Giddey can play alongside a player like an SGA. We saw this in his second year when he played with both SGA and Jalen Williams and was putting up 17/8/6. The thing is that Giddey was the second ballhandler that year. However, it became obvious that Jalen Williams was going to be a star, and it already was obvious that SGA was one. So, because Jalen Williams was improving so sharply and because Giddey was less of a sure thing, he was the one forced to make sacrifices.

You can have Giddey as the secondary guy, but you can't put him any lower than that. He isn't a role player/tertiary player.

The Dallas series really cemented his narrative because he didn't get playing time. OKC lost a close series to Dallas but it wasn't because of some kind of deficiency in GIddey.

[sco]

Giddey can play alongside a player like an SGA. We saw this in his second year when he played with both SGA and Jalen Williams and was putting up 17/8/6. The thing is that Giddey was the second ballhandler that year. However, it became obvious that Jalen Williams was going to be a star, and it already was obvious that SGA was one. So, because Jalen Williams was improving so sharply and because Giddey was less of a sure thing, he was the one forced to make sacrifices.

You can have Giddey as the secondary guy, but you can't put him any lower than that. He isn't a role player/tertiary player.

The Dallas series really cemented his narrative because he didn't get playing time. OKC lost a close series to Dallas but it wasn't because of some kind of deficiency in GIddey.

I think the OKC discussion is relevant with Giddey because, as we've seen here, it is too easy for him to become deferential on offense alongside another ball dominant scorer. If he is relegated to being a 3rd option, his weaknesses start outweighing his strengths.

[Jcool0]

Giddey can play alongside a player like an SGA. We saw this in his second year when he played with both SGA and Jalen Williams and was putting up 17/8/6. The thing is that Giddey was the second ballhandler that year. However, it became obvious that Jalen Williams was going to be a star, and it already was obvious that SGA was one. So, because Jalen Williams was improving so sharply and because Giddey was less of a sure thing, he was the one forced to make sacrifices.

You can have Giddey as the secondary guy, but you can't put him any lower than that. He isn't a role player/tertiary player.

The Dallas series really cemented his narrative because he didn't get playing time. OKC lost a close series to Dallas but it wasn't because of some kind of deficiency in GIddey.

I think the OKC discussion is relevant with Giddey because, as we've seen here, it is too easy for him to become deferential on offense alongside another ball dominant scorer. If he is relegated to being a 3rd option, his weaknesses start outweighing his strengths.

Over his last 24 games in OKC Giddey was averaging Almost 16 ppg, almost 8 rebounds and 6 assists on 54/36/78. Over that time SGA was 26/5.4/5 on 50/32/83 and Jalen Williams was 19/4/4.5 on 52/37/83.

[Stratmaster]

Two different situations. Zach showed that he can be an elite off ball scorer and win when they had the right players around him. Whereas Giddey needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Can Giddey be as effective with good players around him is the question?

Giddey is running the point. It was the whole purpose in bringing here. Of course he has the ball in his hands. What about his assist totals currently would indicate to you that they would suddenly go down if he had better, elite scorers, around him? Why would you want to try to make Giddey an off-ball scorer?

It a conundrum is that while he’s good on ball, can he be effective off ball. Also can he be an effective shooter/scorer to keep the defense honest. We still need answers to both of those questions? If he has the ball all the time and doesn’t improve his shooting. Good defenses can give him a cushion to take away the drive and take away the pass. Limiting his effectiveness. That’s why he has to become an efficient scorer from mid range and deep. If you at good modern PGs, all can score/shoot when needed. Will he be able to do it? Only time will tell.

They have given him a cushion. He has made them pay. He is shooting 37% from 3 this season. He has consistently improved all season long. About 27% in Nov/Dec, up to 37% in January and 54% in February. In his last 7 games he is shooting 60% from 3 and that includes his 0-4 in the last game. His TS% in February was .645. He is averaging 21 ppg over his last 7 games. 19 PPG for the month of February.

I understand a month is a small sample size. Will his shot suddenly disappear? No way anyone can know that about any player. There are very good shooters who have good and bad shooting years. Coby White is considered a great deep shooter, right? He only has one season of 38% or better from 3 and is shooting a worse percentage than Giddey this season. To be fair, Coby takes 8 per game. Josh only 4. But frankly, Coby takes too many lol. Even when Coby was only taking 5 or 6 a game he didn't shoot any better than Giddey.

All that to say that I am not proclaiming that Giddey will be February Giddey for the rest of his career. But any conundrum went out the window with his play in February. Barring some complete personal meltdown the rest of the season there really isn't any question about whether to re-sign him.

[League Circles]

Giddey is running the point. It was the whole purpose in bringing here. Of course he has the ball in his hands. What about his assist totals currently would indicate to you that they would suddenly go down if he had better, elite scorers, around him? Why would you want to try to make Giddey an off-ball scorer?

It a conundrum is that while he’s good on ball, can he be effective off ball. Also can he be an effective shooter/scorer to keep the defense honest. We still need answers to both of those questions? If he has the ball all the time and doesn’t improve his shooting. Good defenses can give him a cushion to take away the drive and take away the pass. Limiting his effectiveness. That’s why he has to become an efficient scorer from mid range and deep. If you at good modern PGs, all can score/shoot when needed. Will he be able to do it? Only time will tell.

They have given him a cushion. He has made them pay. He is shooting 37% from 3 this season. He has consistently improved all season long. About 27% in Nov/Dec, up to 37% in January and 54% in February. In his last 7 games he is shooting 60% from 3 and that includes his 0-4 in the last game. His TS% in February was .645. He is averaging 21 ppg over his last 7 games. 19 PPG for the month of February.

I understand a month is a small sample size. Will his shot suddenly disappear? No way anyone can know that about any player. There are very good shooters who have good and bad shooting years. Coby White is considered a great deep shooter, right? He only has one season of 38% or better from 3 and is shooting a worse percentage than Giddey this season. To be fair, Coby takes 8 per game. Josh only 4. But frankly, Coby takes too many lol. Even when Coby was only taking 5 or 6 a game he didn't shoot any better than Giddey.

All that to say that I am not proclaiming that Giddey will be February Giddey for the rest of his career. But any conundrum went out the window with his play in February. Barring some complete personal meltdown the rest of the season there really isn't any question about whether to re-sign him.

Unless a player is a clear max guy, there is always a question of whether to re-sign him. It depends on the salary and terms of the deal.

I wouldn't consider Coby a great deep shooter, just a good one (better than Giddey obviously so far).

[Stratmaster]

It a conundrum is that while he’s good on ball, can he be effective off ball. Also can he be an effective shooter/scorer to keep the defense honest. We still need answers to both of those questions? If he has the ball all the time and doesn’t improve his shooting. Good defenses can give him a cushion to take away the drive and take away the pass. Limiting his effectiveness. That’s why he has to become an efficient scorer from mid range and deep. If you at good modern PGs, all can score/shoot when needed. Will he be able to do it? Only time will tell.

They have given him a cushion. He has made them pay. He is shooting 37% from 3 this season. He has consistently improved all season long. About 27% in Nov/Dec, up to 37% in January and 54% in February. In his last 7 games he is shooting 60% from 3 and that includes his 0-4 in the last game. His TS% in February was .645. He is averaging 21 ppg over his last 7 games. 19 PPG for the month of February.

I understand a month is a small sample size. Will his shot suddenly disappear? No way anyone can know that about any player. There are very good shooters who have good and bad shooting years. Coby White is considered a great deep shooter, right? He only has one season of 38% or better from 3 and is shooting a worse percentage than Giddey this season. To be fair, Coby takes 8 per game. Josh only 4. But frankly, Coby takes too many lol. Even when Coby was only taking 5 or 6 a game he didn't shoot any better than Giddey.

All that to say that I am not proclaiming that Giddey will be February Giddey for the rest of his career. But any conundrum went out the window with his play in February. Barring some complete personal meltdown the rest of the season there really isn't any question about whether to re-sign him.

Unless a player is a clear max guy, there is always a question of whether to re-sign him. It depends on the salary and terms of the deal.

I wouldn't consider Coby a great deep shooter, just a good one (better than Giddey obviously so far).

Except he hasn't been better than Giddey.

And wait. I thought it was the clear max guys you have to be careful of?

Of course it depends on the salary. And of course AK needs to stop bidding against himself. But there is no question as to whether you WANT to re-sign him. There aren't many players in the NBA running the point effectively and having 16 rebound games.

[Stratmaster]

And just to be clear. There WAS indeed a conundrum at the time this thread was started. If his play since then hasn't resolved that then nothing ever can or will.

[League Circles]

They have given him a cushion. He has made them pay. He is shooting 37% from 3 this season. He has consistently improved all season long. About 27% in Nov/Dec, up to 37% in January and 54% in February. In his last 7 games he is shooting 60% from 3 and that includes his 0-4 in the last game. His TS% in February was .645. He is averaging 21 ppg over his last 7 games. 19 PPG for the month of February.

I understand a month is a small sample size. Will his shot suddenly disappear? No way anyone can know that about any player. There are very good shooters who have good and bad shooting years. Coby White is considered a great deep shooter, right? He only has one season of 38% or better from 3 and is shooting a worse percentage than Giddey this season. To be fair, Coby takes 8 per game. Josh only 4. But frankly, Coby takes too many lol. Even when Coby was only taking 5 or 6 a game he didn't shoot any better than Giddey.

All that to say that I am not proclaiming that Giddey will be February Giddey for the rest of his career. But any conundrum went out the window with his play in February. Barring some complete personal meltdown the rest of the season there really isn't any question about whether to re-sign him.

Unless a player is a clear max guy, there is always a question of whether to re-sign him. It depends on the salary and terms of the deal.

I wouldn't consider Coby a great deep shooter, just a good one (better than Giddey obviously so far).

Except he hasn't been better than Giddey.

And wait. I thought it was the clear max guys you have to be careful of?

Of course it depends on the salary. And of course AK needs to stop bidding against himself. But there is no question as to whether you WANT to re-sign him. There aren't many players in the NBA running the point effectively and having 16 rebound games.

Well yeah, I think there is universal agreement that we should offer him a contract.

Coby doing twice the volume on similar % while drawing significantly more defensive attention has made him clearly a better 3 pt shooter. I think you'll find a hard time getting anyone to agree that Giddey has been, is currently, or will in the future be a better perimeter shooter than Coby.

[League Circles]

And just to be clear. There WAS indeed a conundrum at the time this thread was started. If his play since then hasn't resolved that then nothing ever can or will.

It was also a more meaningful question while trading him was still an option before the deadline, but that ship has effectively sailed.

[jnrjr79]

And just to be clear. There WAS indeed a conundrum at the time this thread was started. If his play since then hasn't resolved that then nothing ever can or will.

I don't think that's accurate. Even if you've come around to generally wanting to retain him, there's still a "how much is too much" question that has to be answered, since I don't think anyone reasonably views him as a max player.

[Jcool0]

And just to be clear. There WAS indeed a conundrum at the time this thread was started. If his play since then hasn't resolved that then nothing ever can or will.

I don't think that's accurate. Even if you've come around to generally wanting to retain him, there's still a "how much is too much" question that has to be answered, since I don't think anyone reasonably views him as a max player.

I mean unless he finishes the year averaging 30/10/10 he isn't getting maxed and KC has said the Bulls are going to let the market decide his contract. So it really doesn't matter what the number is. Bulls will be paying it.

[Chi town]

Good Giddey read on GB.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2442298&p=117433585#p117433585

[Stratmaster]

Unless a player is a clear max guy, there is always a question of whether to re-sign him. It depends on the salary and terms of the deal.

I wouldn't consider Coby a great deep shooter, just a good one (better than Giddey obviously so far).

Except he hasn't been better than Giddey.

And wait. I thought it was the clear max guys you have to be careful of?

Of course it depends on the salary. And of course AK needs to stop bidding against himself. But there is no question as to whether you WANT to re-sign him. There aren't many players in the NBA running the point effectively and having 16 rebound games.

Well yeah, I think there is universal agreement that we should offer him a contract.

Coby doing twice the volume on similar % while drawing significantly more defensive attention has made him clearly a better 3 pt shooter. I think you'll find a hard time getting anyone to agree that Giddey has been, is currently, or will in the future be a better perimeter shooter than Coby.

If you read my post, I already acknowledged that. But Coby is a chucker. We don't want Giddey taking 8 3's a game. we don't want Coby taking 8 but he is.

[Stratmaster]

And just to be clear. There WAS indeed a conundrum at the time this thread was started. If his play since then hasn't resolved that then nothing ever can or will.

I don't think that's accurate. Even if you've come around to generally wanting to retain him, there's still a "how much is too much" question that has to be answered, since I don't think anyone reasonably views him as a max player.

What do you think he is worth, and what would change your mind?

[Stratmaster]

And just to be clear. There WAS indeed a conundrum at the time this thread was started. If his play since then hasn't resolved that then nothing ever can or will.

I don't think that's accurate. Even if you've come around to generally wanting to retain him, there's still a "how much is too much" question that has to be answered, since I don't think anyone reasonably views him as a max player.

I mean unless he finishes the year averaging 30/10/10 he isn't getting maxed and KC has said the Bulls are going to let the market decide his contract. So it really doesn't matter what the number is. Bulls will be paying it.

Exactly. There is no conundrum at this point. You match the offer and the market decides the price. Unless Giddey's agent offers you something you view as a sweet deal.

[League Circles]

Except he hasn't been better than Giddey.

And wait. I thought it was the clear max guys you have to be careful of?

Of course it depends on the salary. And of course AK needs to stop bidding against himself. But there is no question as to whether you WANT to re-sign him. There aren't many players in the NBA running the point effectively and having 16 rebound games.

Well yeah, I think there is universal agreement that we should offer him a contract.

Coby doing twice the volume on similar % while drawing significantly more defensive attention has made him clearly a better 3 pt shooter. I think you'll find a hard time getting anyone to agree that Giddey has been, is currently, or will in the future be a better perimeter shooter than Coby.

If you read my post, I already acknowledged that. But Coby is a chucker. We don't want Giddey taking 8 3's a game. we don't want Coby taking 8 but he is.

Your post said "except he hasn't been better than Giddey". As to how many threes we want either of them to take, it depends on what alternatives are available (which we can guess at but can't just determine by looking at stats). Both are a shade under our team average TS% (58) with their 3 Pt attempts (about 56% TS% on those attempts). Obviously Coby draws more defensive attention / spacing.

[Stratmaster]

Well yeah, I think there is universal agreement that we should offer him a contract.

Coby doing twice the volume on similar % while drawing significantly more defensive attention has made him clearly a better 3 pt shooter. I think you'll find a hard time getting anyone to agree that Giddey has been, is currently, or will in the future be a better perimeter shooter than Coby.

If you read my post, I already acknowledged that. But Coby is a chucker. We don't want Giddey taking 8 3's a game. we don't want Coby taking 8 but he is.

Your post said "except he hasn't been better than Giddey". As to how many threes we want either of them to take, it depends on what alternatives are available (which we can guess at but can't just determine by looking at stats). Both are a shade under our team average TS% (58) with their 3 Pt attempts (about 56% TS% on those attempts). Obviously Coby draws more defensive attention / spacing.

He hasn't been. You are assuming that if Coby only took 4 per game he would have a better percentage. I tend to agree with you. It doesn't change that Giddey is shooting a better percentage right now.

[League Circles]

If you read my post, I already acknowledged that. But Coby is a chucker. We don't want Giddey taking 8 3's a game. we don't want Coby taking 8 but he is.

Your post said "except he hasn't been better than Giddey". As to how many threes we want either of them to take, it depends on what alternatives are available (which we can guess at but can't just determine by looking at stats). Both are a shade under our team average TS% (58) with their 3 Pt attempts (about 56% TS% on those attempts). Obviously Coby draws more defensive attention / spacing.

He hasn't been. You are assuming that if Coby only took 4 per game he would have a better percentage. I tend to agree with you. It doesn't change that Giddey is shooting a better percentage right now.

He's shooting a fraction of a percentage more (both round to 37% lol) on twice the volume while drawing more attention and spacing. For 99% of people, that means he's a better three point shooter.

Of course, maybe Jay Huff, Jaden Ivey and Hayden Highsmith are better three point shooters than Steph Curry. Surely you must believe that lol.