Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[tsherkin]

he wasn't bad prior to his initial ankle injury back in dec...but i think he should focus on recovery honestly

after the injury, he hasn't had the bounce to drive to the net

I don't agree with this. He was at 52.7% TS in October, 52.1% in November. 54.8% in December, then 53.6, 51.7 and he sucked last night in his sole game in March so far. So basically, he has been around the same level the entire season, both before and since the injury.

He has never had any bounce to begin with, and he's been bullying his way to the same spots with the same level of efficacy, he's just missing his middies at a higher rate than he was earlier in the season, especially in February. Shot 46% FG in October, then 41.6, 46.3, 46.6% in January, and subsequently 41.9 and 41.7%.

Scoring just isn't his thing, man.

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

You are, because you're wrong. We're 4 years into his career, we know what he isn't at this point. We know that he isn't going to be a leading scorer, because any leading scorer worth half his salt wouldn't be this bad even on a poor roster in a bad season. That isn't how that level of scoring talent functions. It's likely that Scottie will be better than this once we're able to shift some things around and have some better spacing, no doubt, but that's a degree of indictment on his actual level of proficiency as a scorer. It lowers his ceiling considerably... right to where some of us have been discussing his entire career to date. Right about to where his pre-draft profile suggested he'd be. Having too much faith in his scoring ability at this stage is delusional.

There is no bigger picture of consequence, no need to give it more time. We have a clear idea of what he is not. The shift now is to deciding whether or not he can be useful leveraged as a meaningful mid/high teens scorer so we can leverage his playmaking, and if we can support him with some more off-ball action to bolster his efficiency.

[ConSarnit]

i agree, it's been determined he doesn't really the stuff to be a 1A scorer, and you'll need the "scorer"

however, the good news, is that Scottie's scoring game did improve which will help augment his playmaking, while he's gotten better on D

How had he improved as a scorer? The only area he is “acceptable” from is midrange.

3pt shooting: 160 players are taking >4 3pa this season. Barnes is dead last in 3p%

Post-ups and ISO scoring: he’s sub 40th percentile in both

Free throw rate: 28%, a pretty mediocre number

TS%: he ranks 372nd leaguewide

His scoring game is just flat out bad.

ya, he's scoring game is so-so but not bad for a guy who likely range in the 15-18 pt a game range while giving a lot pluses in other areas

No, it's just bad. There are about 60 starters who have a usage > 25% (25% and above usually implies usage for top 1-2 options on a team). Only 2 guys have lower TS% than Barnes.

[anotherhomer]

he wasn't bad prior to his initial ankle injury back in dec...but i think he should focus on recovery honestly

after the injury, he hasn't had the bounce to drive to the net

I don't agree with this. He was at 52.7% TS in October, 52.1% in November. 54.8% in December, then 53.6, 51.7 and he sucked last night in his sole game in March so far. So basically, he has been around the same level the entire season, both before and since the injury.

He has never had any bounce to begin with, and he's been bullying his way to the same spots with the same level of efficacy, he's just missing his middies at a higher rate than he was earlier in the season, especially in February. Shot 46% FG in October, then 41.6, 46.3, 46.6% in January, and subsequently 41.9 and 41.7%.

Scoring just isn't his thing, man.

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

You are, because you're wrong. We're 4 years into his career, we know what he isn't at this point. We know that he isn't going to be a leading scorer, because any leading scorer worth half his salt wouldn't be this bad even on a poor roster in a bad season. That isn't how that level of scoring talent functions. It's likely that Scottie will be better than this once we're able to shift some things around and have some better spacing, no doubt, but that's a degree of indictment on his actual level of proficiency as a scorer. It lowers his ceiling considerably... right to where some of us have been discussing his entire career to date. Right about to where his pre-draft profile suggested he'd be. Having too much faith in his scoring ability at this stage is delusional.

There is no bigger picture of consequence, no need to give it more time. We have a clear idea of what he is not. The shift now is to deciding whether or not he can be useful leveraged as a meaningful mid/high teens scorer so we can leverage his playmaking, and if we can support him with some more off-ball action to bolster his efficiency.

scottie barnes is an interesting player....i do wonder what's the next steps now

[tsherkin]

scottie barnes is an interesting player....i do wonder what's the next steps now

Right now? We let him be. This is a lost year where we're hoping to play Capture the Flagg.

Next year, with Ingram back and a high pick, and with the way RJ has played with a little less self-creation, we'll have some options. And that should make it simpler for Scottie to focus on better possession types as a scoring threat. Then we can start shaping and molding his possessions more to advantage.

Obviously, he is a contributor. We need to hang onto him because he does a lot. The stuff everyone knew he was going to be good at before the draft, he does quite well, and is valuable. He's a multi-position guy, which is nice too. And if he can work a little on his mid-range stuff and get some of it to fall a little more consistently, so much the better. But once we start trying to win, "next steps" means taking some of that away from him. We can replace some of his playmaking with BI, and lots of his scoring with BI and RJ.

And depending on who we get in the draft, we'll see what else changes.

[PushDaRock]

Probably gonna need an apologize to Siakam thread since so many people on here thought he was holding Scottie back last year.

Everyone is familiar with 13 game Bargnani but we also have 13 game Scottie from last season in December where he put up 23.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 6.1 apg on 62.4 TS%. That stretch is basically what most people are hanging onto as far as thinking he still has a lot of upside as a scorer.

[ConSarnit]

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

He wasn't some young player buried on the bench. He was playing 35mpg from the jump and as such he has gotten many reps across multiple play-types and almost none have been good.

He's in the 55th percentile as a pnr ball handler scorer this year (his career high). He's NEVER been above the 50th percentile in transition, post-up, iso or 3pt shooting. Here are his possession numbers for his career:

Post-ups: 499
Iso: 474
3pa: 936
pnr ball handler: 585
transition: 876

The guy has had the opportunity to show something in almost every key scoring area and he been bad to below average across the board. He's shown some ok scoring as a roll-man and can hit free throws at a decent rate. His midrange has been good this year.

At the rate he is going he's going to have to take a center/roll-man type role if we want him to be anywhere close to league average efficiency. That is not the makings of a top 3 scoring option.

[Boogie!]

Probably gonna need an apologize to Siakam thread since so many people on here thought he was holding Scottie back last year.

Everyone is familiar with 13 game Bargnani but we also have 13 game Scottie from last season in December where he put up 23.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 6.1 apg on 62.4 TS%. That stretch is basically what most people are hanging onto as far as thinking he still has a lot of upside as a scorer.

This is why I’m so adamant about some of my opinions. I was arguing with people last year that said Scottie has more of a “bag” than siakam and he was a better scorer. I really don’t know what some people are watching.

Again what people are ignoring is Scottie’s best stretch came when he was on fire from 3… he started off the season shooting around 40% and everyone thought he took a big leap. What people don’t realize is if he was making his 3s this season people would be going nuts about him again. He doesn’t hav enough offensive arsenal to be an iso scorer so his 3 point shot instantly bolsters his efficiency as a scorer. TLDR Scottie’s 3 point shooting is what made him look good as a scorer for parts of last season not his overall offensive skill set.

[HangTime]

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

He wasn't some young player buried on the bench. He was playing 35mpg from the jump and as such he has gotten many reps across multiple play-types and almost none have been good.

He's in the 55th percentile as a pnr ball handler scorer this year (his career high). He's NEVER been above the 50th percentile in transition, post-up, iso or 3pt shooting. Here are his possession numbers for his career:

Post-ups: 499
Iso: 474
3pa: 936
pnr ball handler: 585
transition: 876

The guy has had the opportunity to show something in almost every key scoring area and he been bad to below average across the board. He's shown some ok scoring as a roll-man and can hit free throws at a decent rate. His midrange has been good this year.

At the rate he is going he's going to have to take a center/roll-man type role if we want him to be anywhere close to league average efficiency. That is not the makings of a top 3 scoring option.

There's a difference between development and plug and play, which Scottie was his first 2 years.

Last year, he was hot to start, becasue he didn't need to take a primary defensive load, but the prices around him weren't a great fit gel.

When RJ and IQ came in, he took a step back so they could be incorporated into the offence, while taking on OG's defencise role.

Right now we've got a really young team, experience, and cohension wise.

Again, patience is necessary. Darko is making things hard on purpose.

[tsherkin]

[
There's a difference between development and plug and play, which Scottie was his first 2 years.

Last year, he was hot to start, becasue he didn't need to take a primary defensive load, but the prices around him weren't a great fit gel.

When RJ and IQ came in, he took a step back so they could be incorporated into the offence, while taking on OG's defencise role.

Right now we've got a really young team, experience, and cohension wise.

Again, patience is necessary. Darko is making things hard on purpose.

This is more delusion.

Him hitting 3s for a month or two last year had nothing to do with defensive load; he does that every year. When that stopped happening, his efficiency dropped off, as expected. The volume isn't the concern at the moment, it's actually making shots and drawing fouls, which he isn't doing well. And hasn't, for four seasons in a row.

The excuses you're peddling don't sell, man.

[PushDaRock]

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

He wasn't some young player buried on the bench. He was playing 35mpg from the jump and as such he has gotten many reps across multiple play-types and almost none have been good.

He's in the 55th percentile as a pnr ball handler scorer this year (his career high). He's NEVER been above the 50th percentile in transition, post-up, iso or 3pt shooting. Here are his possession numbers for his career:

Post-ups: 499
Iso: 474
3pa: 936
pnr ball handler: 585
transition: 876

The guy has had the opportunity to show something in almost every key scoring area and he been bad to below average across the board. He's shown some ok scoring as a roll-man and can hit free throws at a decent rate. His midrange has been good this year.

At the rate he is going he's going to have to take a center/roll-man type role if we want him to be anywhere close to league average efficiency. That is not the makings of a top 3 scoring option.

There's a difference between development and plug and play, which Scottie was his first 2 years.

Last year, he was hot to start, becasue he didn't need to take a primary defensive load, but the prices around him weren't a great fit gel.

When RJ and IQ came in, he took a step back so they could be incorporated into the offence, while taking on OG's defencise role.

Right now we've got a really young team, experience, and cohension wise.

Again, patience is necessary. Darko is making things hard on purpose.

Next season the excuse for any struggles will be he's taking a back seat to let Ingram work his way in

[ConSarnit]

I don't think people are seeing the bigger picture, especially with the roster we've had this season.

You have to give it time, espically with the way he started last season.

He's in his 2nd development year, everyone glances over that.

I can't be the only one that sees it.

He wasn't some young player buried on the bench. He was playing 35mpg from the jump and as such he has gotten many reps across multiple play-types and almost none have been good.

He's in the 55th percentile as a pnr ball handler scorer this year (his career high). He's NEVER been above the 50th percentile in transition, post-up, iso or 3pt shooting. Here are his possession numbers for his career:

Post-ups: 499
Iso: 474
3pa: 936
pnr ball handler: 585
transition: 876

The guy has had the opportunity to show something in almost every key scoring area and he been bad to below average across the board. He's shown some ok scoring as a roll-man and can hit free throws at a decent rate. His midrange has been good this year.

At the rate he is going he's going to have to take a center/roll-man type role if we want him to be anywhere close to league average efficiency. That is not the makings of a top 3 scoring option.

There's a difference between development and plug and play, which Scottie was his first 2 years.

Last year, he was hot to start, becasue he didn't need to take a primary defensive load, but the prices around him weren't a great fit gel.

When RJ and IQ came in, he took a step back so they could be incorporated into the offence, while taking on OG's defencise role.

Right now we've got a really young team, experience, and cohension wise.

Again, patience is necessary. Darko is making things hard on purpose.

This is cope. He’s shooting 29% on wide open 3’s this year. How are his teammates causing him to miss wide open shots? How is that Darko making things harder for him?

The “took a step back” argument makes zero sense because less volume should = increased efficiency. But that’s not even my point as Barnes usage was almost identical post trades as it were pre-trades last season so there is no indication he took a backseat at all. You’re just making things up at this point.

Barnes has made very few appreciable scoring improvements over 4 years. His best improvement has come in the least impactful area (midrange) because that by itself cannot be the foundation of a good scorer unless they are also getting to the rim and drawing fouls (he doesn’t) or can score on volume from 3 (he can’t). It’s year 4 and we should be seeing more by now if he were going to become a top scoring option.

If your contention is right (that Barnes is giving others a chance before himself) we are screwed because he’ll either a) do that again next year with Ingram and our top draft pick or b) he’ll actually take the reigns but because he’s bad at almost everything he’ll drag our team down in a year we’re trying to make the playoffs. How many years are we supposed to give the guy? Until the end of his max contract?

[ATLTimekeeper]

He wasn't some young player buried on the bench. He was playing 35mpg from the jump and as such he has gotten many reps across multiple play-types and almost none have been good.

He's in the 55th percentile as a pnr ball handler scorer this year (his career high). He's NEVER been above the 50th percentile in transition, post-up, iso or 3pt shooting. Here are his possession numbers for his career:

Post-ups: 499
Iso: 474
3pa: 936
pnr ball handler: 585
transition: 876

The guy has had the opportunity to show something in almost every key scoring area and he been bad to below average across the board. He's shown some ok scoring as a roll-man and can hit free throws at a decent rate. His midrange has been good this year.

At the rate he is going he's going to have to take a center/roll-man type role if we want him to be anywhere close to league average efficiency. That is not the makings of a top 3 scoring option.

There's a difference between development and plug and play, which Scottie was his first 2 years.

Last year, he was hot to start, becasue he didn't need to take a primary defensive load, but the prices around him weren't a great fit gel.

When RJ and IQ came in, he took a step back so they could be incorporated into the offence, while taking on OG's defencise role.

Right now we've got a really young team, experience, and cohension wise.

Again, patience is necessary. Darko is making things hard on purpose.

This is cope. He’s shooting 29% on wide open 3’s this year. How are his teammates causing him to miss wide open shots? How is that Darko making things harder for him?

The “took a step back” argument makes zero sense because less volume should = increased efficiency. But that’s not even my point as Barnes usage was almost identical post trades as it were pre-trades last season so there is no indication he took a backseat at all. You’re just making things up at this point.

Barnes has made very few appreciable scoring improvements over 4 years. His best improvement has come in the least impactful area (midrange) because that by itself cannot be the foundation of a good scorer unless they are also getting to the rim and drawing fouls (he doesn’t) or can score on volume from 3 (he can’t). It’s year 4 and we should be seeing more by now if he were going to become a top scoring option.

If your contention is right (that Barnes is giving others a chance before himself) we are screwed because he’ll either a) do that again next year with Ingram and our top draft pick or b) he’ll actually take the reigns but because he’s bad at almost everything he’ll drag our team down in a year we’re trying to make the playoffs. How many years are we supposed to give the guy? Until the end of his max contract?

Also add in his improvements in the mid-range will be less useful with Brandon Ingram, who uses all those same areas, slowly, to also set up his midrange package and is much better than Barnes at it.

[anotherhomer]

scottie barnes is an interesting player....i do wonder what's the next steps now

Right now? We let him be. This is a lost year where we're hoping to play Capture the Flagg.

Next year, with Ingram back and a high pick, and with the way RJ has played with a little less self-creation, we'll have some options. And that should make it simpler for Scottie to focus on better possession types as a scoring threat. Then we can start shaping and molding his possessions more to advantage.

Obviously, he is a contributor. We need to hang onto him because he does a lot. The stuff everyone knew he was going to be good at before the draft, he does quite well, and is valuable. He's a multi-position guy, which is nice too. And if he can work a little on his mid-range stuff and get some of it to fall a little more consistently, so much the better. But once we start trying to win, "next steps" means taking some of that away from him. We can replace some of his playmaking with BI, and lots of his scoring with BI and RJ.

And depending on who we get in the draft, we'll see what else changes.

have to agree

[anotherhomer]

Probably gonna need an apologize to Siakam thread since so many people on here thought he was holding Scottie back last year.

Everyone is familiar with 13 game Bargnani but we also have 13 game Scottie from last season in December where he put up 23.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 6.1 apg on 62.4 TS%. That stretch is basically what most people are hanging onto as far as thinking he still has a lot of upside as a scorer.

no need to apologize....

[Thaddy]

We're going to end up shifting the narrative from all star to all defensive team. But that won't warrant his contract. This is going to be a disaster. The saving grace might be making him a 4th option and putting him in a role similar to Mobley. He really needs to shoot better from distance. That might mean sticking with stationary threes and playing the transition game. If he can get 16/8/8 next year on 60 TS% while we win 50 games it would be a success.

His FT rate hasn't improved since his rookie year, the TS% has hovered at below league average, and his turnover rate is another disaster. A good defensive player with a mid range game doesn't win a whole lot in the NBA. We need to be generating more threes and 4 on 3 advantages.

The future of this team is really riding on the pick this year. If we get a top 3 pick and develop our selection into an all star it might elevate the games of our other pieces over time to have a higher trade value. We will need to make winning trades for bargain contracts to make up for overpays we've given Ingram, Barnes, and IQ.

[LoveMyRaps]

The only contract on the team I'm somewhat worried about.

[tsherkin]

That might mean sticking with stationary threes and playing the transition game.

Stationary threes won't help him, he's mostly missing C+S 3s that are wide open to begin with.

If he can get 16/8/8 next year on 60 TS% while we win 50 games it would be a success.

I'd take 57-58% TS, to be honest.

his turnover rate is another disaster.

Not it isn't. His TOV% isn't great relative to his AST%, but it's not a huge deal, and his blend of cTOV%, good-to-bad pass ratio, handle TOV% and non-passing TOV% all make for an aggregate which isn't bad. Not amazing, but not bad. Certainly not "another disaster."

[PushDaRock]

We're going to end up shifting the narrative from all star to all defensive team. But that won't warrant his contract. This is going to be a disaster. The saving grace might be making him a 4th option and putting him in a role similar to Mobley. He really needs to shoot better from distance. That might mean sticking with stationary threes and playing the transition game. If he can get 16/8/8 next year on 60 TS% while we win 50 games it would be a success.

His FT rate hasn't improved since his rookie year, the TS% has hovered at below league average, and his turnover rate is another disaster. A good defensive player with a mid range game doesn't win a whole lot in the NBA. We need to be generating more threes and 4 on 3 advantages.

The future of this team is really riding on the pick this year. If we get a top 3 pick and develop our selection into an all star it might elevate the games of our other pieces over time to have a higher trade value. We will need to make winning trades for bargain contracts to make up for overpays we've given Ingram, Barnes, and IQ.

The issue is even in a lesser role, he's never shown the ability to be efficient. He got close to league average last season because he managed to shoot 34% from three which is looking like an anomaly. This isn't a Siakam situation where he was miscast as a #1 option that had already shown he could be a very efficient secondary scorer.

[tsherkin]

The issue is even in a lesser role, he's never shown the ability to be efficient. He got close to league average last season because he managed to shoot 34% from three which is looking like an anomaly. This isn't a Siakam situation where he was miscast as a #1 option that had already shown he could be a very efficient secondary scorer.

Sure, but... it's worth mentioning that he's taken 2.6+ 3PA/g in every season of his career so far, which contributes to his inefficiency. And he's shooting 4, 4.5% better at the line than he did as a rookie. Also, last year, it wasn't just 3s, it was that he shot nearly 54% from the field inside the arc, more like what he did as a rookie. 54.3% is league-average 2FG% and he was at 53.6% last year, 54.3% as a rook.

He's getting 2.9 FGA/g in transition this year. 3.0 last year, 2.0 in 2023 and 2.6 in 2022.

Cuts? 1.0 in 2025, 1.0 in 2024, 1.6 in 2023 (shot 56.5% on those attempts), and 1.7 in 2022 (shot 59.3%).

Overall shooting volume? 12.6, 13.2, 15.7, 16.7, so you can do the math on proportion there.

FGA/g in the RA? 3.3, 3.6, 4.3 and 3.4 from 2022-2025.

So again, you can see what's going on. In 2022, league average TS% was 56.6. Then 58.1, 58.0 and now 57.4. Barnes was at 55.2% that first year. He was up over 30% of his shots from 3-10 feet, too. If we cut down the 3s and get back to supporting him in transition, cutting, rolling and otherwise attacking in close, there's a reasonable chance we can get him to league average efficiency on lower overall volume.

[MiamiSPX]

I am not worried about his contract at all. Even if his stats stay the same as they are now, there will still be a few teams out there that will think they can get him to make THE leap. He puts up just enough counting stats, coupled with hit size and age, that make the "what if" tantalizing.