How close is SGA to Peak Kobe?

[Airmiess]

The thing about Kobe is that he had bad habits.
The same bad habits that hindered Iverson, difference being size.

SGA doesn't have these bad habits relating to shot tendencies.

However, Kobe had the greatest motor of all time behind only MJ. I don't think SGA has this same tenacity.

[web123888]

Well it’s not really possible to separate accolades from ability / skill / talent / dominance.

The two are usually linked.

If you’re really “that dude”, you’ll end up with a lot of hardware, either MVPs, titles or both.

SGA will likely win MVP. Time will tell if he’s good enough to get the titles.

[ballzboyee]

The wording of the question is wrong because shai is better

Better at what?

Scoring? No.
Defense? No.

Better at 2nd round exit as 1st place team? Yes. Dude hasn't accomplished anything. Kobe dominated the rs and playoffs against very tough schedules and brought banners to LA.

Pace is way up, so scoring numbers are inflated along with all other stats. Advanced numbers are predicated on the fact that players only take two shots: layups and three's. Kobe would average high 30's some years in this era. He averaged 32 in 2006 on a team with a pace way slower than OKC and about the same number of shots as Shai this year. Imagine giving 6 or 7 more possessions per game every night.

[tsherkin]

SGA will likely win MVP. Time will tell if he’s good enough to get the titles.

That'll be about both his performance in the playoffs, and how well his team performs around him.

It's worth remembering that Kobe played like this in the Finals:

2000: 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 36.7% FG, 41.1% TS (title)
2001: 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 41.5% FG, 50.1% TS (title; -1% rTS vs playoff league average)
2002: 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 51.4% FG, 62.2% TS (title)
2004: 22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg, 38.1% FG, 45.6% TS (loss)
2008: 25.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 5.0 apg, 40.5% FG, 50.5% TS (loss, -2.7% rTS)
2009: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 43.0% FG, 52.5% TS (title, -1.9% rTS)
2010: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 40.5% FG, 52.8% TS (title, -1.5% rTS, 6/24 FG and 1/4 in the 4Q and 37.6% TS in the final game)

So when we look at him, it's important to remember stuff like this. When you count titles, those first three were led by Shaq and Kobe was largely an afterthought in at least one of them. He was mediocre at best in 2001 and fantastic in 2002. He blew chunks in 04, and it was essentially Detroit's strategy (per their guys) to make Kobe feel jealous of Shaq and force him to start gunning, which he did. 2008, he struggled against Boston's defense. 2009, he put up volume but struggled to score effectively against the Magic, though they won. And then he struggled again versus the Celtics and actually shot horribly in the final game, but MWP and Gasol helped get it done late. Then they were successful in forcing Rondo to take the last shot with a few seconds left, and he missed. But everyone remembers the title, not the performance, and so we hear a lot of "5 RINGZ" type talk with Kobe.

So we'll see. If SGA stays on good teams long enough, he'll get his chance to go head to head with Kobe's legacy. But we should be looking more at post-Shaq Kobe than early Kobe, because that was obviously driven by the ATG, MVP-level big around who the offense was designed.

[dhsilv2]

I'm not a fan of either but this is, undoubtedly, one of the most patently absurd comments I've ever seen on RGM. Good Christ is this hilariously bad.

But he is. Like...I don't know how anyone could argue. Kobe never was this good in a regular season and I'm not even sure if he ever had a season like last year. We can argue if we're ready to declare it based on playoff play, but there's zero case kobe was ever this good in a season. Even defensively SGA looks to be at least as good.

I'm seeing it as player to player, straight up. And once SGA can match up to some of Bryant's individual hardware, only then can he be put into that conversation. Bryant was a 12 time All Defensive player and in the status for DPoY several times, so while the "eye test" might look good it's pretty moot unless SGA can get the votes to make an All-Defensive team.

Bryant may not have been as efficient in his scoring as SGA, but to say that "Kobe never was this good in a regular season" is utterly laughable.

I mean... dude. Seriously. I cannot believe this is even a thing. I'm starting to think you purposely replied to me because we have a seemingly regular pattern of disagreement.

I replied because to claim Kobe is better in a regular season makes no reasonable sense, it's just objectively false. Of course he hasn't matched his career. But peak to peak, this is a higher peak. Assuming we judge peaks in any reasonable sense, so lets say relative to their peers. As you can't really cross era. SGA is just as a matter of fact better relative to the league than Kobe ever was.

Unless you think Kobe is the only player ever who's game couldn't be captured by stats. And then I'd be all ears to hear why.

[tsherkin]

]

Bryant was a 12 time All Defensive player and in the status for DPoY several times, so while the "eye test" might look good it's pretty moot unless SGA can get the votes to make an All-Defensive team.

There was never a season where Kobe was anywhere near winning a DPOY, nor where he deserved discussion relative to that award. I don't know why you ever mentioned that. One guy floating a vote for him means nothing. He wasn't even the best wing defender in the league, let alone challenging guys like Duncan, Wallace or Garnett. Or Mutombo, for that matter. Or Dwight. Marcus Camby. I could go on, but it's sufficiently ridiculous that I believe this to be enough.

[PostGameDaVinci]

Shai isn't even close to Kobe. He doesn't even have a cool nickname or sneaker. Talk to me when players start to embrace Canadian Mentality.

[tsherkin]

Shai isn't even close to Kobe. He doesn't even have a cool nickname or sneaker. Talk to me when players start to embrace Canadian Mentality.

I can't tell if you're /s or being serious. That's faintly impressive xD

[mademan]

As a RS player, he's already surpassed him. He was also awesome last year in the playoffs, but still doesnt have the success.

With the team he has and the future assets OKC holds, Shai really does have top 10 GOAT potential.

[ballzboyee]

SGA will likely win MVP. Time will tell if he’s good enough to get the titles.

That'll be about both his performance in the playoffs, and how well his team performs around him.

It's worth remembering that Kobe played like this in the Finals:

2000: 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 36.7% FG, 41.1% TS (title)
2001: 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 41.5% FG, 50.1% TS (title; -1% rTS vs playoff league average)
2002: 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 51.4% FG, 62.2% TS (title)
2004: 22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg, 38.1% FG, 45.6% TS (loss)
2008: 25.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 5.0 apg, 40.5% FG, 50.5% TS (loss, -2.7% rTS)
2009: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 43.0% FG, 52.5% TS (title, -1.9% rTS)
2010: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 40.5% FG, 52.8% TS (title, -1.5% rTS, 6/24 FG and 1/4 in the 4Q and 37.6% TS in the final game)

So when we look at him, it's important to remember stuff like this. When you count titles, those first three were led by Shaq and Kobe was largely an afterthought in at least one of them. He was mediocre at best in 2001 and fantastic in 2002. He blew chunks in 04, and it was essentially Detroit's strategy (per their guys) to make Kobe feel jealous of Shaq and force him to start gunning, which he did. 2008, he struggled against Boston's defense. 2009, he put up volume but struggled to score effectively against the Magic, though they won. And then he struggled again versus the Celtics and actually shot horribly in the final game, but MWP and Gasol helped get it done late. Then they were successful in forcing Rondo to take the last shot with a few seconds left, and he missed. But everyone remembers the title, not the performance, and so we hear a lot of "5 RINGZ" type talk with Kobe.

So we'll see. If SGA stays on good teams long enough, he'll get his chance to go head to head with Kobe's legacy. But we should be looking more at post-Shaq Kobe than early Kobe, because that was obviously driven by the ATG, MVP-level big around who the offense was designed.

We'll see? Dude has to win 5 championships anyway you cut it, which is not going to happen. Kobe's offense was more important to his team which is why his advanced stats revert to the league average. He carried way more of the offensive load. Teams were not spreading the floor back then and Kobe was consistently getting doubled by the other teams best defenders against the top defensive teams in the league, which were all in the West. He still overpowered everybody with his ability to break down defenses at all three levels.


Kobe's title runs are only eclipsed by MJ and Magic in the modern era. You could argue Kobe did it all playing against the toughest competition of any player in history, which makes his accomplishments all the more special.

[tsherkin]

We'll see? Dude has to win 5 championships anyway you cut it, which is not going to happen.

I mean, a 5-title requirement is dumb as sin, and we all know that. We also know that judging a player purely on accumulated titles is especially stupid, as it relies on roles played management's success at acquiring pieces, and all of that. It's also explicitly NOT what the OP wanted, for that reason.

Kobe's offense was more important to his team which is why his advanced stats revert to the league average.

No? He struggled to score against higher-end defenses, is what happened. And he could be baited into taking bad shots, which is also frequently what happened. It isn't a horrible thing, it doesn't make him a bad player. It speaks to team construction as much as anything, and isn't very different from what happened to Jordan during the second three-peat, to be fair. It does happen. But the magnitude of his drop-off is actually relevant to conversation. When you try to elevate a player, you consider all elements of his game. Performance against high-end defenses in the playoffs is a salient detail, and Kobe struggled more regularly than he did not in the Finals.

Kobe's title runs are only eclipsed by MJ and Magic in the modern era. You could argue Kobe did it all playing against the toughest competition of any player in history, which makes his accomplishments all the more special.

I mean, no. All of that is wrong.

[SkyBill40]

]

Bryant was a 12 time All Defensive player and in the status for DPoY several times, so while the "eye test" might look good it's pretty moot unless SGA can get the votes to make an All-Defensive team.

There was never a season where Kobe was anywhere near winning a DPOY, nor where he deserved discussion relative to that award. I don't know why you ever mentioned that. One guy floating a vote for him means nothing. He wasn't even the best wing defender in the league, let alone challenging guys like Duncan, Wallace or Garnett. Or Mutombo, for that matter. Or Dwight. Marcus Camby. I could go on, but it's sufficiently ridiculous that I believe this to be enough.

It was mentioned because it was meaningful in the point of Bryant's repeated defensive prowess, seeing dshilv2 brought it up that SGA was on par with (or perhaps better than) Bryant as a defender. While it's not on the level of being game changing to the likes of the aforementioned, it isn't without merit to say that Bryant was seen as a defensive stopper and had a reputation for being a staunchly effective man defender. SGA is not on that level.

[ballzboyee]

We'll see? Dude has to win 5 championships anyway you cut it, which is not going to happen.

I mean, a 5-title requirement is dumb as sin, and we all know that. We also know that judging a player purely on accumulated titles is especially stupid, as it relies on roles played management's success at acquiring pieces, and all of that. It's also explicitly NOT what the OP wanted, for that reason.

Kobe's offense was more important to his team which is why his advanced stats revert to the league average.

No? He struggled to score against higher-end defenses, is what happened. And he could be baited into taking bad shots, which is also frequently what happened. It isn't a horrible thing, it doesn't make him a bad player. It speaks to team construction as much as anything, and isn't very different from what happened to Jordan during the second three-peat, to be fair. It does happen. But the magnitude of his drop-off is actually relevant to conversation. When you try to elevate a player, you consider all elements of his game. Performance against high-end defenses in the playoffs is a salient detail, and Kobe struggled more regularly than he did not in the Finals.

Kobe's title runs are only eclipsed by MJ and Magic in the modern era. You could argue Kobe did it all playing against the toughest competition of any player in history, which makes his accomplishments all the more special.

I mean, no. All of that is wrong.

Literally none of those things you mentioned matter at all in terms of evaluating a player's effectiveness on the court, especially if comparing players. It's just nitpicking because there are no real weaknesses in Kobe's game. Baited into taking bad shots? What does that even mean? The best defensive teams typically make the playoffs, and Kobe faced many elite defensive teams in the West. Perhaps more than any player in the history of the game. His playoff averages: 33, 32, 30, 30, 30, 29, 29, 27, 26, 25, 22, 21, 20, and 8 and 8 when he was a rookie and second-year player coming off the bench. In four title runs he averaged 29ppg in an era when scoring was way down compared today. Translated to today's averages his numbers would be in the mid 30's adjusted for pace. On what planet did he "struggle" in the playoffs to score?

[tsherkin]

It was mentioned because it was meaningful in the point of Bryant's repeated defensive prowess. While it's not on the level of being game changing to the likes of the aforementioned, it isn't without merit to say that Bryant was seen as a defensive stopper and had a reputation for being a staunchly effective man defender. SGA is not on that level.

But it isn't meaningful. Kobe's defense has been one of the more overrated components of his game for a long time, particularly after 2000, once he started scoring in significant volume. And mentioning DPOY implies there was ever serious consideration for him, which there was not in any season, ever.

In his early days, he was considered a defensive stopper and built a reputation which carried forward. And in some matchups and some postseason series, he summoned it again. But he was highly inconsistent about that.

SGA has not been consistently there, for sure. This year, a little different story, but we appear to be discussing him primarily on the basis of this season.

Literally none of those things you mentioned matter at all in terms of evaluating a player's effectiveness on the court, especially if comparing players. It's just nitpicking because there are no real weaknesses in Kobe's game.

I mean, no, that's wrong. The idea that he had no weaknesses is delusional at best.

On what planet did he "struggle" in the playoffs to score?

Raw shot making and efficiency come to mind immediately to anyone paying attention... Actually having watched the 2004 and 2008 Finals comes to mind. Same same 2010.

[dhsilv2]

]

Bryant was a 12 time All Defensive player and in the status for DPoY several times, so while the "eye test" might look good it's pretty moot unless SGA can get the votes to make an All-Defensive team.

There was never a season where Kobe was anywhere near winning a DPOY, nor where he deserved discussion relative to that award. I don't know why you ever mentioned that. One guy floating a vote for him means nothing. He wasn't even the best wing defender in the league, let alone challenging guys like Duncan, Wallace or Garnett. Or Mutombo, for that matter. Or Dwight. Marcus Camby. I could go on, but it's sufficiently ridiculous that I believe this to be enough.

It was mentioned because it was meaningful in the point of Bryant's repeated defensive prowess, seeing dshilv2 brought it up that SGA was on par with (or perhaps better than) Bryant as a defender. While it's not on the level of being game changing to the likes of the aforementioned, it isn't without merit to say that Bryant was seen as a defensive stopper and had a reputation for being a staunchly effective man defender. SGA is not on that level.

The problem is that Kobe wasn't actually a high impact defender. RAPM type data for shooting guards is pretty messy so by all means I'm not going to take a stand either way. But Shai is currently an impact defender on the best defense...possibly in NBA history. And it did so without Chet for most of the season.

[WiggOuts]

I feel like a thread like this is not going to bring any meaningful discussions lol. Both sides will argue extreme unrealistic points without much middle ground

[PostGameDaVinci]

Shai isn't even close to Kobe. He doesn't even have a cool nickname or sneaker. Talk to me when players start to embrace Canadian Mentality.

I can't tell if you're /s or being serious. That's faintly impressive xD

I've never seen someone yell "Shai" when shooting some balled up paper into the trash. I'm just saying...

[thamadkant]

SGA is closer to Brandon Roy had Brandon Roy stayed healthy. As in both are team MVPs and MVp candidates but not sure about top 5 best ever in their position.

[ballzboyee]

It was mentioned because it was meaningful in the point of Bryant's repeated defensive prowess. While it's not on the level of being game changing to the likes of the aforementioned, it isn't without merit to say that Bryant was seen as a defensive stopper and had a reputation for being a staunchly effective man defender. SGA is not on that level.

But it isn't meaningful. Kobe's defense has been one of the more overrated components of his game for a long time, particularly after 2000, once he started scoring in significant volume. And mentioning DPOY implies there was ever serious consideration for him, which there was not in any season, ever.

In his early days, he was considered a defensive stopper and built a reputation which carried forward. And in some matchups and some postseason series, he summoned it again. But he was highly inconsistent about that.

SGA has not been consistently there, for sure. This year, a little different story, but we appear to be discussing him primarily on the basis of this season.

Literally none of those things you mentioned matter at all in terms of evaluating a player's effectiveness on the court, especially if comparing players. It's just nitpicking because there are no real weaknesses in Kobe's game.

I mean, no, that's wrong. The idea that he had no weaknesses is delusional at best.

On what planet did he "struggle" in the playoffs to score?

Raw shot making and efficiency come to mind immediately to anyone paying attention... Actually having watched the 2004 and 2008 Finals comes to mind. Same same 2010.

What do you mean by "raw shot making"? Efficiency is really overrated. If a player is taking all the hard shots for his team and carrying the scoring load, his numbers will mirror a team average. Kobe ability to score at all three levels when teams could play more physical on defense and congest the paint wore teams down defensively and mentally. In many ways I would say his affect was similar to Curry's in that Kobe's constant attacking style generated its own kind of offensive gravity. Shai spends all his time on the court with other players who are spreading the floor and can shoot. Modern teams on average take about 40 3's per game and defenders are in a far greater disadvantage both from a scheme and rules perspective. Shai's numbers are simply reflective of the leagues overall trend of inflated scoring and gaudy advanced stats. Don't get me wrong, Shai is a seriously great player. But if you put him in Kobe's spot he would have to be a far more physical player to be successful. He would have to work a lot more for his shot. As a wing Kobe mastered a physical style of play perfect for his era.

[dhsilv2]

SGA is closer to Brandon Roy had Brandon Roy stayed healthy. As in both are team MVPs and MVp candidates but not sure about top 5 best ever in their position.

Roy was never an MVP candidate. SGA is the front runner. If you want to argue SGA is closer to Wade than kobe...that we can agree on.