No argument that Brown ≥ Tatum

[GeorgeMarcus]

I've seen a sizable minority of posters who treat "the Jays" as being on the same level, with some even claiming JB is better. I was predisposed to dislike Tatum from the very beginning (think Fultz draft ) so it doesn't give me joy to make this argument. However, I am on the side of truth even when I don't like it. Today's truth is that there is no argument JB is equal to (and certainly not greater than) JT.

Bold = advantage
* = tie

Jayson Tatum
2018: 13.9ppg on 58.6 TS% / 5.0rpg / *1.6apg / *1.0spg / 0.7bpg / +8.5 on/off

2019: 15.7ppg on *54.7 TS% / 6.0rpg / 2.1apg / 1.1spg / 0.7bpg / +4.6 on/off

2020: 23.4ppg on 56.7 TS% / 7.0rpg / 3.0apg / 1.4spg / 0.9bpg / +11.1 on/off

2021: 26.4ppg on 57.6 TS% / 7.4rpg / 4.3apg / *1.2spg / 0.5bpg / +5.3 on/off

2022: 26.9ppg on 57.8 TS% / 8.0 rpg / 4.4apg / 1.0spg / 0.6bpg / +13.8 on/off

2023: 30.1ppg on 60.7 TS% / 8.8 rpg / 4.6apg / *1.1spg / 0.7bpg / +5.5 on/off

2024: 26.9ppg on 60.4 TS% / 8.1 rpg / 4.9 apg / 1.0spg / 0.6bpg / -1.2 on/off

2025: 26.8ppg on 58.5 TS% / 8.8 rpg / 5.8 apg / 1.1spg / 0.5bpg / +1.6 on/off

Playoffs (career): 24.0ppg on 56.6 TS% / 7.9rpg / 4.9apg / 1.1spg / 0.9bpg / +5.2 on/off



Jaylen Brown
2018: 14.5ppg on 56.2 TS% / 4.9rpg / *1.6apg / *1.0spg / 0.4bpg / +8.2 on/off

2019: 13.0ppg on *54.7 TS% / 4.2rpg / 1.4apg / 0.9spg / 0.4bpg / -3.7 on/off

2020: 20.3ppg on 58.3 TS% / 6.4rpg / 2.1apg / 1.1spg / 0.4bpg / -0.8 on/off

2021: 24.7ppg on 58.6 TS% / 6.0rpg / 3.4apg / *1.2spg / 0.6bpg / +0.6 on/off

2022: 23.6ppg on 57.4 TS% / 6.1rpg / 3.5apg / 1.1spg / 0.3bpg / +5.4 on/off

2023: 26.6ppg on 58.1 TS% / 6.9rpg / 3.5apg / *1.1spg / 0.4bpg / -3.9 on/off

2024: 23.0ppg on 58.0 TS% / 5.5rpg / 3.6apg / 1.2spg / 0.5bpg / -7.7 on/off

2025: 23.2ppg on 55.6 TS% / 6.0rpg / 4.7 apg / 1.2spg / 0.3bpg / -1.8 on/off

Playoffs (career): 19.1ppg on 57.9 TS% / 5.6rpg / 2.4apg / 1.0spg / 0.4bpg / -4.7 on/off



I left out JB's rookie season because Tatum wasn't in the league yet, but his stats were... not good.

[ForeverTFC]

I believe you'll find the majority of people here agree with you. The JB>JT noise may be loud, but it's definitely a fringe minority.

[Hornet Mania]

I agree Tatum is better but I don't think stats are going to change the mind of those who choose Brown. They'd likely give Brown the edge due to either superior defense or because he came up bigger in the Finals last year and is therefore allegedly more clutch, neither of those things show up on the stat sheet.

[tsherkin]

I think any pro-Jaylen argument has to be centered around Tatum's struggles in the Finals, right? And even then, it's not like hit lit up the opposition himself. Tatum shoulders a larger usage burden and does more on either end of the court; it shouldn't be a huge stretch to acknowledge that he's the best guy on the team. He has flaws, but he is a very good player. JB is good, but we wouldn't talk about him anywhere near this much if he wasn't on that Celtics team. In 2021, he had a wonderful year. He hasn't really kept pace with advancing league efficiency and he isn't a super high-end playmaker or anything. He's a good player, mostly, though his scoring has been quite rough this year (below his norm, of course), and a good defender who is a solid on-ball attack guy. Quality running mate.

But I suspect people who make a pro-Jaylen argument are already looking for a way to eat away at positivity for Tatum to some degree or another.

[therealbig3]

I like Jaylen Brown a lot, never thought he was actually better than Tatum, but was somewhat close…but it’s actually not that close. Tatum is a lot better on both sides of the ball. The one area where Brown can shine is in a slow it down, half court offense. I think he’s got more reliable dribble penetration and shiftiness and is therefore a better half court, isolation scorer. But Tatum outclasses him in pretty much all other aspects.

There’s a better argument that Jaylen is actually 3rd best on the team (Derrick White) than him being better than Tatum.

[phanman]

I agree Tatum is better but I don't think stats are going to change the mind of those who choose Brown. They'd likely give Brown the edge due to either superior defense or because he came up bigger in the Finals last year and is therefore allegedly more clutch, neither of those things show up on the stat sheet.

The only argument for those in favor of JB are the two MVPs he won in the playoffs last season. The way people bring it up make it seem like it was a landslide in favor of JB when he won by 1 vote each time. What many overlook is how much more responsibilities Tatum carries on both ends of the floor to allow even JB to flourish in a more limited role. He is both their primary scorer and playmaker, an incredible rebounder and his versatility defensively allowed Joe to play him small ball 5 with KP in/out the line-up to counter Gafford/Lively.

There's a reason why one guy is about to make his 4th consecutive 1st team All-NBA (5th overall with another 3rd team) and the other has just a 2nd team in a weaker season with many wings missing the 65 cut last year. It's not like JB isn't afforded the same reps to shine, he just simply isn't as good as JT.

[LuckyGreen7]

There was a time that I thought JB had a higher ceiling than Tatum due to his athleticism, intelligence and just killer drive to always improve. But Tatum just has the size advantage and just more natural gifts.

I hope we see both together for another ten years. Incredible duo that have learned to put their egos aside and play very well together. They are as close to a 1A and 1B as it gets vs a clear number 1 and number 2.

[DLoMor]

The playoffs and finals run last year showed me who’s the better leader of the team and it’s clearly Brown. They need to stop making overrated Tatum the number 1 option.

[The Corey's]

It doesn't matter. It never mattered. Stop pretending like it matters.

We're happy to keep winning while everyone else looks to cause division where there is none.

[bkkrh]

I believe you'll find the majority of people here agree with you. The JB>JT noise may be loud, but it's definitely a fringe minority.

Funny thing is, I remember a lot of people actually questioning if Brown is a legit All Star player before the last finals over the years. In the end it's a pointless discussion anyhow, since you just need to look at the fact that Brown is a 4 time All Star and made 1 All NBA 2nd team, while Tatum made 3 All NBA 1st teams, one 3rd team and got MVP votes in 4 seasons.

It's similar to those posts when somebody brings up that actually a player should have won DPOY 25 years ago that didn't even make the All Defense team, based on some random advanced stat. Any logical approach would make it clear that it is pretty unrealistic that every voter and media member was completely wrong that year and that on top of that nobody else had realized it before that poster until now.

In the end I feel that the NBA media landscape has kinda conditioned a lot of fans to be on a treasure hunt for hot takes. Why a great player is actually not as great or even greater than we thought. WHy a championship deserves an asterisk and so on.

In that sense, a lot of people probably come to conclusions first and then treat every clue as proof for their theory. I already believe that Tatum is overrated, so every bad game from him + every game where Brown plays better is a clear evidence of my thesis.

It's similar to how Lebron gets the blame for the Heatles, while Dwade and Bosh are pretty much completely out of that discussion. Or how a lot of people saw Curry still as the clear Number 1 player on the Warriors and were posting that Durant could never win a title as Number 1 on a team, while he actually won 2 finals MVPs and Curry mostly had pretty underwhelming finals appearances for his standards in his career.

[ITYSL]

Anyone who watches the team regularly can tell you that Tatum is clearly the better player, and that is not a knock on Brown at all.

What I love about Brown is when the Celtics are struggling to score, he is often the first one who will play bully ball, forcing himself into the paint and getting a bucket. Tatum will do that sometimes, but not as often as I'd like.

The Finals MVP could have gone to either player. They were both deserving. Both of them shot poorly, but Brown clearly shot it better. Tatum was a beast on the boards and their best playmaker. Tatum took on Lively and Gafford on defense, shutting down the twin tower lob threat that the Mavs feasted on vs. other opponents earlier in the playoffs. But Brown took on Luka and did a great job limiting him as a scorer.

It's awesome having both on the team. They're both great competitors, get along, and feed off each other well. Arguably the best duo in the league.

[JimmyPlopper]

I think any pro-Jaylen argument has to be centered around Tatum's struggles in the Finals, right? And even then, it's not like hit lit up the opposition himself. Tatum shoulders a larger usage burden and does more on either end of the court; it shouldn't be a huge stretch to acknowledge that he's the best guy on the team. He has flaws, but he is a very good player. JB is good, but we wouldn't talk about him anywhere near this much if he wasn't on that Celtics team. In 2021, he had a wonderful year. He hasn't really kept pace with advancing league efficiency and he isn't a super high-end playmaker or anything. He's a good player, mostly, though his scoring has been quite rough this year (below his norm, of course), and a good defender who is a solid on-ball attack guy. Quality running mate.

But I suspect people who make a pro-Jaylen argument are already looking for a way to eat away at positivity for Tatum to some degree or another.

This is my argument which is not to say I think Jaylen is better, but I think that the Celtics team proved it needed him when it mattered most.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I agree Tatum is better but I don't think stats are going to change the mind of those who choose Brown. They'd likely give Brown the edge due to either superior defense or because he came up bigger in the Finals last year and is therefore allegedly more clutch, neither of those things show up on the stat sheet.

I included on/off and playoff data for that reason. Celtics with Tatum have performed better than Celtics with Brown every season + the playoffs. Which of course includes defense and is more telling when you consider their minutes are often staggered against each other's.

Edit) I spliced defensive on/off and discovered Tatum > Brown in all but 1 season

The playoffs and finals run last year showed me who’s the better leader of the team and it’s clearly Brown. They need to stop making overrated Tatum the number 1 option.

You mean the same playoffs Tatum put up more points, assists, rebounds, blocks and had less turnovers? With a +6.0 on/off vs Brown's -7.5?

JB scored more efficiently but Tatum was the focal point of opposing defenses, so it kind of balances out. Other than that there's really just the .1 advantage in steals lol

[shotsquatch]

There are people saying Brown is better than Tatum? Huh?

I swear, if Tatum was putting up 30 as the lone star on the Pacers or Blazers people wouldn't be having all these stupid arguments about his place in the league.

The guy is a top 10 player, get over it.

[tsherkin]

This is my argument which is not to say I think Jaylen is better, but I think that the Celtics team proved it needed him when it mattered most.

They needed all of their guys in order to win a title. That isn't unusual.

[165bows]

I agree Tatum is better but I don't think stats are going to change the mind of those who choose Brown. They'd likely give Brown the edge due to either superior defense or because he came up bigger in the Finals last year and is therefore allegedly more clutch, neither of those things show up on the stat sheet.

I included on/off and playoff data for that reason. Celtics with Tatum have performed better than Celtics with Brown every season + the playoffs. Which of course includes defense and is more telling when you consider their minutes are often staggered against each other's.

Edit) I spliced defensive on/off and discovered Tatum > Brown in all but 1 season

The playoffs and finals run last year showed me who’s the better leader of the team and it’s clearly Brown. They need to stop making overrated Tatum the number 1 option.

You mean the same playoffs Tatum put up more points, assists, rebounds, blocks and had less turnovers? With a +6.0 on/off vs Brown's -7.5?

JB scored more efficiently but Tatum was the focal point of opposing defenses, so it kind of balances out. Other than that there's really just the .1 advantage in steals lol

GB arguments about the Celtics are awesome because every poster on the Celtics board with two neurons and a pulse knows that Tatum has excellent on off numbers with or without brown but browns without Tatum are not good and this has been going on for years.

And most everyone knows that last year was the exception and finally the team wasn’t getting beat in non-Tatum minutes.

[JimmyPlopper]

This is my argument which is not to say I think Jaylen is better, but I think that the Celtics team proved it needed him when it mattered most.

They needed all of their guys in order to win a title. That isn't unusual.

Yes, but I feel Jaylen is consistently better in the clutch, while Jayson has a greater overall impact throughout the regular season. Both factors are important in different ways. Jaylen certainly earned his Finals MVP, while Jayson was their regular-season MVP. Since the game becomes tougher in the postseason, I lean slightly toward Jaylen in my appreciation. The comparison is warranted since they play similar positions on the same team, and I find myself somewhere between the two main viewpoints I’ve seen on this board—valuing both sustained excellence and performance when it matters most.

[tsherkin]

Yes, but I feel Jaylen is consistently better in the clutch, while Jayson has a greater overall impact throughout the regular season.

I'd like to see a more detailed look at that to see if it's true. It makes any kind of sense, because he's a little more dynamic with a live dribble, so I can see it making some sense. But there'd have to be a fairly humongous deviation between the two for that to make up the difference between them beyond that.

Worth remembering about the 2024 Finals: Boston's offense collapsed. They won with defense, and they won in 5 games against a team who couldn't overcome their defense, nor the shooting variance they were experiencing on open shots as well. Brown wasn't their leading scorer, wasn't efficient, wasn't their primary playmaker, wasn't their best defender. He scored more efficiently than Tatum (though he actually shot worse from 3), but he wasn't facing the brunt of the Dallas defense, nor shouldering the primary load on offense. It was an ugly series from Tatum, but Brown was himself 3.1% worse than playoff league average TS% in that series. And in the last game of the series, Brown posted 21/8/6 on 30.4% FG (7/23 FG) while Tatum rocked 31/8/11 on 11/24 FG.

Brown started the series better over the first 3 games, but Tatum finished it better over the last 2. Not a huge advantage between the two, all told. It was a bit weird that Brown was given the Finals MVP, IMHO, to be frank.

[zimpy27]

Brown getting the finals MVP was more an indictment on Tatum for shrinking during the finals.

39% FG killed him

[islandkid12]

Jaylen Brown is a top 18ish player in the league.

So we're saying an NBA team won the championship with the 18th best player in the league as the best player? No top 15 players on the team at all? So Tatum's like the 19th/20th best player in the league?