PG: KNICKS 'Maul' The Grizzlies: Brunson/OG/Mitch Edition

[HEZI]

4th option? He is not an isolation player but he seems to be able to get to his spots in the midrange with the use of a screen where he is highly efficient. Even if he couldn't create his own offense and was almost completely dependent on the system and others to create offense for him how does that make him a bad 3rd option? Isn't that the point of having an offensive system and options 1 and 2?

I agree that the team could use another ball handler/shot creator since they don't really have an offensive system and KAT doesn't really do that as a 2nd option but that still doesn't make Mikal a bad 3rd option. That just makes the Knicks a poorly constructed team in some ways. KP is assisted on 85% of his shots. Mikal is assisted on 77% of his shots. KP is dependent on others creating for him too. He is great in his role when he is on the court. Mikal needs to improve his above the break 3 but there have been plenty of games where he actually looks better when he has a larger role in the offense.

Expecting the guy that is behind Brunson, Hart, KAT, Payne and McBride in ball handling responsibility to be creating offense for himself and others seems odd. Shouldn't the guys that actually handle the ball be better at creating?

He didn't have a great game from 3 yesterday with a few difficult attempts but where in these highlights do you see a guy struggling to get his shot off or dribble without almost turning it over? He is actually performing better with more dribbles in these clips. He is not someone that is just going to hijack the offense. He plays his role.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022400856&PlayerID=1628969&RangeType=0&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612752&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

Because look at the competition. Boston for example has how many guards and forwards that can put the ball on the floor, drive, shoot, pass? You bringing up KP which is a great example. He is giving Boston more production in only 28 minutes than Mikal is doing in 38 minutes. So yes when you want to evaluate what the Knicks are missing and what Mikal fails to provide then yes for our team he’s not a good 3rd option. We need more from that role than he can provide. And no I don’t mean a random night against Charlotte or Philly, I mean against your top competitors who you likely will have to go through in the playoffs. The red flags are all there right now so I don’t expect things to change much in the playoffs.

The Celtics have a better constructed roster from top to bottom. Could the Knicks have a better constructed roster? Yes but why would it be the 3rd option's responsibility to fill all of the holes in the roster?

The question is what role did they bring Mikal in to play, is he being used in that role and how is he performing in that role. If you want Mikal to create more for himself and others you may want to talk to Thibs because he is not being used in that role. And you may want to tell him to lower his minutes and take some of the defensive responsibility of him because no one plays high level defense against the toughest matchups every game for 38 minutes. Forget about asking for more on the offensive end too.

This is why the trade was bad for us because he doesn’t bring what the team needs most. If most people could undo the trade they would because we see that it was a bad one. We would have been better off using those picks for either a better player or for more depth that we are lacking. The coach has already given him the freedom to do all these things, it’s the player that is limited. He’s had plenty of opportunities but he shows you that he can’t. Cant get past a defender and either will pick up his dribble as he almost fumbles the ball or he will settle for a fadeaway jumper. That’s it, those are his only two options on any drive with almost every defender that has guarded him. He has found his success playing off the ball, that’s why his efficiency has gone up under Thibs. It’s when he tries to do anything with the ball in his hands besides catch and shoot from mid range or corner 3, it’s been a disaster.

[BKlutch]

you can add OG to that list, too

we had people calling him jared jeffries in the game thread

just curious, who did that?

Damn, it was mpharris.

viewtopic.php?t=2443489&start=580


Adding mpharris to the list

So does this mean MP is Russian?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

My guy nodope is going through a rough patch right now. His takes on KAT being able to anchor a defense at the 5 aged like milk, the whole board is screaming we need mitch, and most importantly sham gets to run his victory laps. Praying for my dawg nodope to get through this difficult time.

The Knicks won, why would I be down? It's not like I spent 4 months crashing out, getting banned, having a thread made for me, or said I was going to go on sabbatical and lurk because it's "unfair" on here

You spent the last 5 years crashing out since we got Thibs to deflect your bad takes. A ban is nothing. I got more bans during the Melo days Saying a thread was made for me is a compliment, meaning I have power In the end I won. You lost every argument about KAT at the 5, you lost all your arguments about our ex young knicks, you lost the argument about donovan mitchell not being able to thrive next to a small guard, the list just keeps adding on bredren. You going out like Mavado.

Watch on YouTube

This is one of the most unhinged posts I've seen here outside of Wingo being threatend, this is a stats based board, and you have more posts about KAT (2300) than I have on Thibs (2100) in 5 years, how you gonna drop kick yourself so badly? You went from saying the thread wasn't made for you to now saying it's a powerful moment in time because they had to make a thread to contain a grown man's temper tantrum. Brother, it's a message board where you're not a mod, admin, or paying member, you don't have any power and neither do I. You're spiraling, I'm trying to keep this a friendly fade, but you're cracking and it's not looking pretty. I was right about Randle, that's the only thing that matters, and why you been so emotional lately. I got the melostein files too, but I wont drop them since I see how much this all means to you.


"I have power"

[JayTWill]

Because look at the competition. Boston for example has how many guards and forwards that can put the ball on the floor, drive, shoot, pass? You bringing up KP which is a great example. He is giving Boston more production in only 28 minutes than Mikal is doing in 38 minutes. So yes when you want to evaluate what the Knicks are missing and what Mikal fails to provide then yes for our team he’s not a good 3rd option. We need more from that role than he can provide. And no I don’t mean a random night against Charlotte or Philly, I mean against your top competitors who you likely will have to go through in the playoffs. The red flags are all there right now so I don’t expect things to change much in the playoffs.

The Celtics have a better constructed roster from top to bottom. Could the Knicks have a better constructed roster? Yes but why would it be the 3rd option's responsibility to fill all of the holes in the roster?

The question is what role did they bring Mikal in to play, is he being used in that role and how is he performing in that role. If you want Mikal to create more for himself and others you may want to talk to Thibs because he is not being used in that role. And you may want to tell him to lower his minutes and take some of the defensive responsibility of him because no one plays high level defense against the toughest matchups every game for 38 minutes. Forget about asking for more on the offensive end too.

This is why the trade was bad for us because he doesn’t bring what the team needs most. If most people could undo the trade they would because we see that it was a bad one. We would have been better off using those picks for either a better player or for more depth that we are lacking. The coach has already given him the freedom to do all these things, it’s the player that is limited. He’s had plenty of opportunities but he shows you that he can’t. Cant get past a defender and either will pick up his dribble as he almost fumbles the ball or he will settle for a fadeaway jumper. That’s it, those are his only two options on any drive with almost every defender that has guarded him. He has found his success playing off the ball, that’s why his efficiency has gone up under Thibs. It’s when he tries to do anything with the ball in his hands besides catch and shoot from mid range or corner 3, it’s been a disaster.

I agree that it was a bad trade. It was a series of bad moves. They signed a poor fit in Fournier. They watched his value decline under Thibs. They made a good pick on Grimes but then also watched his value decline. They traded those two at their lowest + two 2nds for Bogey and Burks and then watched their values decline under Thibs. They then attached 5 picks, a swap and a 2nd to Bogey's negative contract to add Mikal just to have him play an extended minutes version of the role Grimes was playing most of the time. It still doesn't make it Mikal's responsibility to fix everything.

I'm just not sure how on a team where OG truly struggles to dribble under pressure without turning the ball over and Hart truly doesn't have the ability to create offense for himself in the half court that you are critical of Mikal and his ability to comfortably dribble into the midrange and "settle" for shots in an areas where he shoots well above league average.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shooting?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*nyk&dir=D&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FG%20PCT

Do you really expect him to play point of attack defense 1-4 every game for 38 minutes while creating for himself and others and shooting with high efficiency from all over the court? Who does that? Lou Dort is an example of a consistent point of attack defender that look I at as better than Bridges in that role but he is also surrounded by much better defenders, playing less than 30 minutes and is pretty limited offensively and surely not a 3rd option. Tell me who the 3rd options are that do everything you expect Mikal to do.

[HEZI]

The Celtics have a better constructed roster from top to bottom. Could the Knicks have a better constructed roster? Yes but why would it be the 3rd option's responsibility to fill all of the holes in the roster?

The question is what role did they bring Mikal in to play, is he being used in that role and how is he performing in that role. If you want Mikal to create more for himself and others you may want to talk to Thibs because he is not being used in that role. And you may want to tell him to lower his minutes and take some of the defensive responsibility of him because no one plays high level defense against the toughest matchups every game for 38 minutes. Forget about asking for more on the offensive end too.

This is why the trade was bad for us because he doesn’t bring what the team needs most. If most people could undo the trade they would because we see that it was a bad one. We would have been better off using those picks for either a better player or for more depth that we are lacking. The coach has already given him the freedom to do all these things, it’s the player that is limited. He’s had plenty of opportunities but he shows you that he can’t. Cant get past a defender and either will pick up his dribble as he almost fumbles the ball or he will settle for a fadeaway jumper. That’s it, those are his only two options on any drive with almost every defender that has guarded him. He has found his success playing off the ball, that’s why his efficiency has gone up under Thibs. It’s when he tries to do anything with the ball in his hands besides catch and shoot from mid range or corner 3, it’s been a disaster.

I agree that it was a bad trade. It was a series of bad moves. They signed a poor fit in Fournier. They watched his value decline under Thibs. They made a good pick on Grimes but then also watched his value decline. They traded those two at their lowest + two 2nds for Bogey and Burks and then watched their values decline under Thibs. They then attached 5 picks, a swap and a 2nd to Bogey's negative contract to add Mikal just to have him play an extended minutes version of the role Grimes was playing most of the time. It still doesn't make it Mikal's responsibility to fix everything.

I'm just not sure how on a team where OG truly struggles to dribble under pressure without turning the ball over and Hart truly doesn't have the ability to create offense for himself in the half court that you are critical of Mikal and his ability to comfortably dribble into the midrange and "settle" for shots in an areas where he shoots well above league average.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shooting?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*nyk&dir=D&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FG%20PCT

Do you really expect him to play point of attack defense 1-4 every game for 38 minutes while creating for himself and others and shooting with high efficiency from all over the court? Who does that? Lou Dort is an example of a consistent point of attack defender that look I at as better than Bridges in that role but he is also surrounded by much better defenders, playing less than 30 minutes and is pretty limited offensively and surely not a 3rd option. Tell me who the 3rd options are that do everything you expect Mikal to do.

Fournier left the NBA to play in Europe and Grimes is on his 3rd team now after being traded by the Knicks not long ago. Clearly those guys had issues that weren’t related to Thibs. They were still bad trades but either way those contracts would have been dealt in the Mikal deal even if we kept them so it still brings us to where we are now.

OG is much better and more valuable than Mikal. OG is bigger and stronger and attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line plus he’s much better in his role than Mikal is in his. OG is ideal as a 4th option type of guy and that’s where he’s thriving with us. Mikal is being asked to be a 3rd option and that’s not what he should be on any title contender which we are not.

Trade was bad because of Mikals limitations as a player, you can blame the front office for that and that’s justified. It doesn’t mean his game can’t be dissected and critiqued

[JayTWill]

This is why the trade was bad for us because he doesn’t bring what the team needs most. If most people could undo the trade they would because we see that it was a bad one. We would have been better off using those picks for either a better player or for more depth that we are lacking. The coach has already given him the freedom to do all these things, it’s the player that is limited. He’s had plenty of opportunities but he shows you that he can’t. Cant get past a defender and either will pick up his dribble as he almost fumbles the ball or he will settle for a fadeaway jumper. That’s it, those are his only two options on any drive with almost every defender that has guarded him. He has found his success playing off the ball, that’s why his efficiency has gone up under Thibs. It’s when he tries to do anything with the ball in his hands besides catch and shoot from mid range or corner 3, it’s been a disaster.

I agree that it was a bad trade. It was a series of bad moves. They signed a poor fit in Fournier. They watched his value decline under Thibs. They made a good pick on Grimes but then also watched his value decline. They traded those two at their lowest + two 2nds for Bogey and Burks and then watched their values decline under Thibs. They then attached 5 picks, a swap and a 2nd to Bogey's negative contract to add Mikal just to have him play an extended minutes version of the role Grimes was playing most of the time. It still doesn't make it Mikal's responsibility to fix everything.

I'm just not sure how on a team where OG truly struggles to dribble under pressure without turning the ball over and Hart truly doesn't have the ability to create offense for himself in the half court that you are critical of Mikal and his ability to comfortably dribble into the midrange and "settle" for shots in an areas where he shoots well above league average.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shooting?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*nyk&dir=D&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FG%20PCT

Do you really expect him to play point of attack defense 1-4 every game for 38 minutes while creating for himself and others and shooting with high efficiency from all over the court? Who does that? Lou Dort is an example of a consistent point of attack defender that look I at as better than Bridges in that role but he is also surrounded by much better defenders, playing less than 30 minutes and is pretty limited offensively and surely not a 3rd option. Tell me who the 3rd options are that do everything you expect Mikal to do.

Fournier left the NBA to play in Europe and Grimes is on his 3rd team now after being traded by the Knicks not long ago. Clearly those guys had issues that weren’t related to Thibs. They were still bad trades but either way those contracts would have been dealt in the Mikal deal even if we kept them so it still brings us to where we are now.

OG is much better and more valuable than Mikal. OG is bigger and stronger and attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line plus he’s much better in his role than Mikal is in his. OG is ideal as a 4th option type of guy and that’s where he’s thriving with us. Mikal is being asked to be a 3rd option and that’s not what he should be on any title contender which we are not.

Trade was bad because of Mikals limitations as a player, you can blame the front office for that and that’s justified. It doesn’t mean his game can’t be dissected and critiqued

I said it was a bad trade. Now tell me who they should have gotten as a 3rd option to fill the holes in the team like you wanted

[HEZI]

I agree that it was a bad trade. It was a series of bad moves. They signed a poor fit in Fournier. They watched his value decline under Thibs. They made a good pick on Grimes but then also watched his value decline. They traded those two at their lowest + two 2nds for Bogey and Burks and then watched their values decline under Thibs. They then attached 5 picks, a swap and a 2nd to Bogey's negative contract to add Mikal just to have him play an extended minutes version of the role Grimes was playing most of the time. It still doesn't make it Mikal's responsibility to fix everything.

I'm just not sure how on a team where OG truly struggles to dribble under pressure without turning the ball over and Hart truly doesn't have the ability to create offense for himself in the half court that you are critical of Mikal and his ability to comfortably dribble into the midrange and "settle" for shots in an areas where he shoots well above league average.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shooting?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*nyk&dir=D&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FG%20PCT

Do you really expect him to play point of attack defense 1-4 every game for 38 minutes while creating for himself and others and shooting with high efficiency from all over the court? Who does that? Lou Dort is an example of a consistent point of attack defender that look I at as better than Bridges in that role but he is also surrounded by much better defenders, playing less than 30 minutes and is pretty limited offensively and surely not a 3rd option. Tell me who the 3rd options are that do everything you expect Mikal to do.

Fournier left the NBA to play in Europe and Grimes is on his 3rd team now after being traded by the Knicks not long ago. Clearly those guys had issues that weren’t related to Thibs. They were still bad trades but either way those contracts would have been dealt in the Mikal deal even if we kept them so it still brings us to where we are now.

OG is much better and more valuable than Mikal. OG is bigger and stronger and attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line plus he’s much better in his role than Mikal is in his. OG is ideal as a 4th option type of guy and that’s where he’s thriving with us. Mikal is being asked to be a 3rd option and that’s not what he should be on any title contender which we are not.

Trade was bad because of Mikals limitations as a player, you can blame the front office for that and that’s justified. It doesn’t mean his game can’t be dissected and critiqued

I said it was a bad trade. Now tell me who they should have gotten as a 3rd option to fill the holes in the team like you wanted

Don’t remember who was all available in the summer but if you are willing to part ways with 5 picks I’m sure you could have gotten someone better. First name that pops in my mind is Deandre Hunter. Better player and could have been had for less which would have also left us with maybe a few additional picks for another depth piece.

[JayTWill]

Fournier left the NBA to play in Europe and Grimes is on his 3rd team now after being traded by the Knicks not long ago. Clearly those guys had issues that weren’t related to Thibs. They were still bad trades but either way those contracts would have been dealt in the Mikal deal even if we kept them so it still brings us to where we are now.

OG is much better and more valuable than Mikal. OG is bigger and stronger and attacks the rim and gets to the free throw line plus he’s much better in his role than Mikal is in his. OG is ideal as a 4th option type of guy and that’s where he’s thriving with us. Mikal is being asked to be a 3rd option and that’s not what he should be on any title contender which we are not.

Trade was bad because of Mikals limitations as a player, you can blame the front office for that and that’s justified. It doesn’t mean his game can’t be dissected and critiqued

I said it was a bad trade. Now tell me who they should have gotten as a 3rd option to fill the holes in the team like you wanted

Don’t remember who was all available in the summer but if you are willing to part ways with 5 picks I’m sure you could have gotten someone better. First name that pops in my mind is Deandre Hunter. Better player and could have been had for less which would have also left us with maybe a few additional picks for another depth piece.

Cool. Hunter was one of the buy low candidates I was looking at last trade deadline with Fournier's contract but his injury history scared me The Knicks could have probably acquired him at a cheaper price than Mikal was but it probably would have cost more draft capital than the Cavs gave up since Levert is a much more valuable player than broken Bogey and Shake Milton+ for $23M.

He is an above average defender imo. He doesn't really create for others like you said you want the 3rd option to but he has developed into a very good shooter/scorer. Now imagine the Knicks traded for him and instead of using him off the bench as a scorer/part-time defender like the Hawks and Cavs have they decided to start him and use him as a point of attack defender 1-3 while playing almost 40 minutes not the 25-30 he played previously. What do you think would happen?

I feel like some of his defensive limitations would be exposed and his ability to score would take a hit. Now imagine the Knicks decided to trade 5 picks for him for some strange reason. It won't change who he is. I can't now expect him to be a better defender, be more efficient and all of a sudden add rebounding and playmaking to his game that did not exist before and if he gets injured once again I can't be shocked. Hunter would look worse in Mikal's current role but that wouldn't make him a bad 3rd option. It would just mean he is being misused.

If you want the higher effiiciency/better defensive Mikal from early on his Phoenix days you are going to have to lower his volume, lower his minutes, generate/assist more easy shots and possibly limit the range of guys he defends. If you want the guy from last season in Phoenix/Brooklyn that filled up the stat sheet a little more on the offensive end with lesser efficiency and lesser defense you have to put the ball in his hands more. You can't just magically wish for the best of both versions to come together especially when he is not being used in either role.

[HEZI]

I said it was a bad trade. Now tell me who they should have gotten as a 3rd option to fill the holes in the team like you wanted

Don’t remember who was all available in the summer but if you are willing to part ways with 5 picks I’m sure you could have gotten someone better. First name that pops in my mind is Deandre Hunter. Better player and could have been had for less which would have also left us with maybe a few additional picks for another depth piece.

Cool. Hunter was one of the buy low candidates I was looking at last trade deadline with Fournier's contract but his injury history scared me The Knicks could have probably acquired him at a cheaper price than Mikal was but it probably would have cost more draft capital than the Cavs gave up since Levert is a much more valuable player than broken Bogey and Shake Milton+ for $23M.

He is an above average defender imo. He doesn't really create for others like you said you want the 3rd option to but he has developed into a very good shooter/scorer. Now imagine the Knicks traded for him and instead of using him off the bench as a scorer/part-time defender like the Hawks and Cavs have they decided to start him and use him as a point of attack defender 1-3 while playing almost 40 minutes not the 25-30 he played previously. What do you think would happen?

I feel like some of his defensive limitations would be exposed and his ability to score would take a hit. Now imagine the Knicks decided to trade 5 picks for him for some strange reason. It won't change who he is. I can't now expect him to be a better defender, be more efficient and all of a sudden add rebounding and playmaking to his game that did not exist before and if he gets injured once again I can't be shocked. Hunter would look worse in Mikal's current role but that wouldn't make him a bad 3rd option. It would just mean he is being misused.

If you want the higher effiiciency/better defensive Mikal from early on his Phoenix days you are going to have to lower his volume, lower his minutes, generate/assist more easy shots and possibly limit the range of guys he defends. If you want the guy from last season in Phoenix/Brooklyn that filled up the stat sheet a little more on the offensive end with lesser efficiency and lesser defense you have to put the ball in his hands more. You can't just magically wish for the best of both versions to come together especially when he is not being used in either role.

I never said the 3rd option has to create for others, I said he needs to be able to create for himself if you have a team that struggles in that area. Hunter is so much better at creating his shot than Mikal. Much better ball handle and shot making ability off the dribble plus he’s stronger and attacks the rim and can get to the foul line.

To me Bridges was always overrated until he went to Brooklyn and folks were saying he was so good. I didn’t watch any Brooklyn games last season so I have no idea what was going on there but I do know that the Suns Mikal Bridges was always a role player to me. Even when he was in college all I saw from Mikal was high end role player. I feel like that’s what he brings to the Knicks now so why would you want to change him to be something he was in Phoenix when that guy was not much different besides he changed his shot mechanics and got worse as a shooter now.

Last time Mikal averaged 28 MPG he was averaging 9 PPG. Deandre Hunter has never averaged less than 12 PPG and has never averaged more than 32 mpg in a season and that happened once. So, yeah if you give Hunter more minutes and responsibility I’m pretty sure he can do a lot better than Mikal

[JayTWill]

Don’t remember who was all available in the summer but if you are willing to part ways with 5 picks I’m sure you could have gotten someone better. First name that pops in my mind is Deandre Hunter. Better player and could have been had for less which would have also left us with maybe a few additional picks for another depth piece.

Cool. Hunter was one of the buy low candidates I was looking at last trade deadline with Fournier's contract but his injury history scared me The Knicks could have probably acquired him at a cheaper price than Mikal was but it probably would have cost more draft capital than the Cavs gave up since Levert is a much more valuable player than broken Bogey and Shake Milton+ for $23M.

He is an above average defender imo. He doesn't really create for others like you said you want the 3rd option to but he has developed into a very good shooter/scorer. Now imagine the Knicks traded for him and instead of using him off the bench as a scorer/part-time defender like the Hawks and Cavs have they decided to start him and use him as a point of attack defender 1-3 while playing almost 40 minutes not the 25-30 he played previously. What do you think would happen?

I feel like some of his defensive limitations would be exposed and his ability to score would take a hit. Now imagine the Knicks decided to trade 5 picks for him for some strange reason. It won't change who he is. I can't now expect him to be a better defender, be more efficient and all of a sudden add rebounding and playmaking to his game that did not exist before and if he gets injured once again I can't be shocked. Hunter would look worse in Mikal's current role but that wouldn't make him a bad 3rd option. It would just mean he is being misused.

If you want the higher effiiciency/better defensive Mikal from early on his Phoenix days you are going to have to lower his volume, lower his minutes, generate/assist more easy shots and possibly limit the range of guys he defends. If you want the guy from last season in Phoenix/Brooklyn that filled up the stat sheet a little more on the offensive end with lesser efficiency and lesser defense you have to put the ball in his hands more. You can't just magically wish for the best of both versions to come together especially when he is not being used in either role.

I never said the 3rd option has to create for others, I said he needs to be able to create for himself if you have a team that struggles in that area. Hunter is so much better at creating his shot than Mikal. Much better ball handle and shot making ability off the dribble plus he’s stronger and attacks the rim and can get to the foul line.

To me Bridges was always overrated until he went to Brooklyn and folks were saying he was so good. I didn’t watch any Brooklyn games last season so I have no idea what was going on there but I do know that the Suns Mikal Bridges was always a role player to me. Even when he was in college all I saw from Mikal was high end role player. I feel like that’s what he brings to the Knicks now so why would you want to change him to be something he was in Phoenix when that guy was not much different besides he changed his shot mechanics and got worse as a shooter now.

Last time Mikal averaged 28 MPG he was averaging 9 PPG. Deandre Hunter has never averaged less than 12 PPG and has never averaged more than 32 mpg in a season and that happened once. So, yeah if you give Hunter more minutes and responsibility I’m pretty sure he can do a lot better than Mikal

You said that Boston and Cleveland had multiple guys that can create for themselves and other so I assumed you wanted a player that could do those things but apparently you don't expect that from Hunter. You want more from Mikal though I assume. If the Knicks traded 5 picks for a role player how can you be upset with the player for not being more than a role player? Shouldn't you be upset with the front office for paying so much for a role player or shouldn't you be upset with the coach for not using him in the same role?

And I was not saying Hunter would perform worse than Mikal I was saying Hunter would perform worse as a player if you gave him the role Mikal is playing for 38 minutes. I have no idea how he would compare to Mikal but he has struggled guarding quicker shifty guards in Atlanta and the more he passed, shot and dribbled the sloppier his game looked. There is a reason he averages 1.5 assists for his career as a wing less than the role player Mikal playing 28 minutes in Phoenix.

If everyone is being used in their proper role and some of them are just underperforming can you explain some of these numbers?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628969&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

Spoiler:

The Knicks traded for one the best defensive wings last year in OG and somehow they have designed a team where he is now grappling with other bigs most of the game or Thibs has him on an easier defensive matchup while Mikal takes the tough matchups most games. He finally put him on Tatum last Boston game but why would you put Mikal on Tatum in any game? Wouldn't it make sense to make use of OG's defensive abilities on ball more often? Mikal is more skilled offensively than OG. Wouldn't it make sense for the guy that is more skilled offensively and you want to do more as a 3rd option to conserve more of his energy for that role and be more involved in the offense?

OG's defensive impact was so much higher last year despite being the same player this year. I know losing iHart and Mitch being out changes things but maybe OG is just more effective as a 3/ part-time 4. Maybe he should be used that way. Mitch's return opens up the chance to play KAT at the 4 but maybe Thibs should have explored that more earlier in the season. Maybe he should have played Precious more at the 4 next to KAT to move OG down to the 3 more often. Maybe lower Mikal and Hart's minutes and make use of Deuce more as a better complimentary piece. I don't know

All I know is that this team is supposedly a top heavy team with limited depth and talent coming from the bench but the starting 5 man unit is not dominating despite being stacked with talent and playing so many minutes together against starters and bench units.

Brunson is an incredible offensive talent yet somehow this year the team performs 5-6 points better with him off the court. How is that even possible when your backup is Cameron Payne????? No disrespect to Payne but there is no way that should happen. If that doesn't say something isn't functioning properly I don't know what does.

At this point I am just hoping that the coach and the player are just holding some things back for the postseason and they have another level to take it to because what I have seen in the regular season so far has not been impressive although seeing OG's level of effort and activity defensively against Miami last night was encouraging.

[3toheadmelo]

The Knicks won, why would I be down? It's not like I spent 4 months crashing out, getting banned, having a thread made for me, or said I was going to go on sabbatical and lurk because it's "unfair" on here

You spent the last 5 years crashing out since we got Thibs to deflect your bad takes. A ban is nothing. I got more bans during the Melo days Saying a thread was made for me is a compliment, meaning I have power In the end I won. You lost every argument about KAT at the 5, you lost all your arguments about our ex young knicks, you lost the argument about donovan mitchell not being able to thrive next to a small guard, the list just keeps adding on bredren. You going out like Mavado.

Watch on YouTube

This is one of the most unhinged posts I've seen here outside of Wingo being threatend, this is a stats based board, and you have more posts about KAT (2300) than I have on Thibs (2100) in 5 years, how you gonna drop kick yourself so badly? You went from saying the thread wasn't made for you to now saying it's a powerful moment in time because they had to make a thread to contain a grown man's temper tantrum. Brother, it's a message board where you're not a mod, admin, or paying member, you don't have any power and neither do I. You're spiraling, I'm trying to keep this a friendly fade, but you're cracking and it's not looking pretty. I was right about Randle, that's the only thing that matters, and why you been so emotional lately. I got the melostein files too, but I wont drop them since I see how much this all means to you.


"I have power"

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUoV2hhdCBhcmUgeWl5IHRhbGtpbmYgYWdvdXQgYnJvIHdlYXRicm9vbQ%3D%3D

I posted the kartel and mavado as a joke cause we’re both from the islands. I didn’t think you would take it literally. It sounds like you really are butthurt about all them L’s you been taking. I didn’t know losing arguments on the internet was that serious to you. I can’t relate. And btw, I been talking about KAT since he was in Kentucky and wanted the Knicks to draft him. so obviously I would have more posts about him than thibs. Be fr

[Chanel Bomber]

It is not really about rim protection though. I was watching the minutes that Mitch played when KAT was in foul trouble and he was consistently rotating out of drop coverage to the correct person when Memphis would swing the ball out of the pick and roll. In other games without Mitch or with KAT on the floor as center there would be wide open threes either on the corner or the elbow which was usually a blown rotation by KAT or someone making up for his slow feet. Mitch was obviously winded and a little out of game shape, but if he fixes our rotations by doing better drop coverage as a C than KAT, then we might have a chance against 3 point chuckers like Boston. The rim protection is a secondary bonus.

Just another note, Precious Achiuwa does great with the rotations on defense as well, but he's a below average rebounder and fails to end possessions. Mitch brings elite rebounding + rotation so that we don't have to rely on KAT to do it. After 50+ games I now understand why Minnesota brought in Gobert and I am happy to see Mitch moving around comfortably to play that same role.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Mitch is a highly impactful all-around defender. KAT is a minus all-around defender.

I think a KAT-Mitch frontcourt is worth a look. In a vacuum, it worked in Minnesota with Gobert. Different personnel around them so there's no guarantee it will translate with the Knicks.

My point was moreso that by starting Mitch at the 5, the offense will also take a significant hit. And it's something that seems to get lost in the "need to play KAT at the 4" argument.

The real question is do the gains on defense outweigh the losses on offense (or vice versa).

As far as the drop coverage is concerned, a team like Boston could run the 1-4 pick-and-roll instead and leave Mitch on the perimeter guarding KP so that he can't roam around the basket.

Our only issues this year have come against the top 3 teams in the league, and besides Cleveland with Jarrett Allen, the Celtics and Thunder could easily pull Mitch away from the basket while still putting Brunson and KAT in the PNR. Having Mitch on the floor would help to some degree regardless, but I think in those matchups his impact on defense could turn out to be fairly minor in relation to how he'd negatively affect the offense.

Last season the offense was ranked 7th while missing Randle and OG for half the season. The year before it was ranked 4th. We tend to have good offenses with either Mitch or Ihart so it should not be much worse. The defense has been so bad with KAT that the offense needed to be record breaking just to keep up.

It was frustrating watching the constant breakdowns in rotations and it must not be fun for the players to have to spend so much energy trying to cover their man and KAT's man too. They looked far more confident when Mitch was on the court, he makes it easier for his teammates.

Again, what matters most is the differential between the defensive and offensive outputs.

Our net rating with KAT at the 5 is roughly in the same ballpark as our net rating from last year, and significantly better than our net rating from two years ago.

You mention our offense being (almost) record-breaking as if it doesn't matter in this equation. We do run one of the best offenses in NBA history. And while it doesn't guarantee anything, it has a significant impact on our record, which is the best through 60 games since 1997.

If Mitch costs us more points on offense than we gain on defense, the swap isn't exactly beneficial. That's the point.

Now I'm not predicting how things are going to pan out. I love Mitch and think he can impact the team. He's a good player but if anything adding a quality rotation player will in and of itself help the team more than the fact that he's a rim protector.

[Chanel Bomber]

It is not really about rim protection though. I was watching the minutes that Mitch played when KAT was in foul trouble and he was consistently rotating out of drop coverage to the correct person when Memphis would swing the ball out of the pick and roll. In other games without Mitch or with KAT on the floor as center there would be wide open threes either on the corner or the elbow which was usually a blown rotation by KAT or someone making up for his slow feet. Mitch was obviously winded and a little out of game shape, but if he fixes our rotations by doing better drop coverage as a C than KAT, then we might have a chance against 3 point chuckers like Boston. The rim protection is a secondary bonus.

Just another note, Precious Achiuwa does great with the rotations on defense as well, but he's a below average rebounder and fails to end possessions. Mitch brings elite rebounding + rotation so that we don't have to rely on KAT to do it. After 50+ games I now understand why Minnesota brought in Gobert and I am happy to see Mitch moving around comfortably to play that same role.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Mitch is a highly impactful all-around defender. KAT is a minus all-around defender.

I think a KAT-Mitch frontcourt is worth a look. In a vacuum, it worked in Minnesota with Gobert. Different personnel around them so there's no guarantee it will translate with the Knicks.

My point was moreso that by starting Mitch at the 5, the offense will also take a significant hit. And it's something that seems to get lost in the "need to play KAT at the 4" argument.

The real question is do the gains on defense outweigh the losses on offense (or vice versa).

As far as the drop coverage is concerned, a team like Boston could run the 1-4 pick-and-roll instead and leave Mitch on the perimeter guarding KP so that he can't roam around the basket.

Our only issues this year have come against the top 3 teams in the league, and besides Cleveland with Jarrett Allen, the Celtics and Thunder could easily pull Mitch away from the basket while still putting Brunson and KAT in the PNR. Having Mitch on the floor would help to some degree regardless, but I think in those matchups his impact on defense could turn out to be fairly minor in relation to how he'd negatively affect the offense.

i think the obvious answer is, yes. hart for mitch in the SL significantly improves the defense and isn't a notable loss of spacing. in fact, the other 2 wings might find more room to spread their...wings sliding down a spot, being big at that position, and only having to compete with brunson (pg) and kat (big man) for touches

This is the best argument for starting Mitch (the fact that Hart isn't a floor spacer though he is relatively speaking compared to Mitch). But then you likely have to kick Precious out of the rotation, so Mitch and Hart's minutes can be staggered as much as possible without killing our spacing entirely.

I think at the end of the day, it boils down to Mitch being an impactful NBA player. He's a solid contributor who can inject our team - which is extremely thin this season in terms of depth - with quality rotation minutes. This should elevate the team beyond any considerations of role. If we added a DDV or MPJ to the rotation, I think we would see an uptick in team performance as well, similar to what you are projecting with Mitch - it would just come in a different way.

At least that's how I view it.

In any case I can't wait for Mitch to come back. I think ideally we mix 5-out lineups with KAT at the 5 and some big lineups with Mitch at the 5. A hybrid approach may be best suited. But there's no magic formula.

[HEZI]

Cool. Hunter was one of the buy low candidates I was looking at last trade deadline with Fournier's contract but his injury history scared me The Knicks could have probably acquired him at a cheaper price than Mikal was but it probably would have cost more draft capital than the Cavs gave up since Levert is a much more valuable player than broken Bogey and Shake Milton+ for $23M.

He is an above average defender imo. He doesn't really create for others like you said you want the 3rd option to but he has developed into a very good shooter/scorer. Now imagine the Knicks traded for him and instead of using him off the bench as a scorer/part-time defender like the Hawks and Cavs have they decided to start him and use him as a point of attack defender 1-3 while playing almost 40 minutes not the 25-30 he played previously. What do you think would happen?

I feel like some of his defensive limitations would be exposed and his ability to score would take a hit. Now imagine the Knicks decided to trade 5 picks for him for some strange reason. It won't change who he is. I can't now expect him to be a better defender, be more efficient and all of a sudden add rebounding and playmaking to his game that did not exist before and if he gets injured once again I can't be shocked. Hunter would look worse in Mikal's current role but that wouldn't make him a bad 3rd option. It would just mean he is being misused.

If you want the higher effiiciency/better defensive Mikal from early on his Phoenix days you are going to have to lower his volume, lower his minutes, generate/assist more easy shots and possibly limit the range of guys he defends. If you want the guy from last season in Phoenix/Brooklyn that filled up the stat sheet a little more on the offensive end with lesser efficiency and lesser defense you have to put the ball in his hands more. You can't just magically wish for the best of both versions to come together especially when he is not being used in either role.

I never said the 3rd option has to create for others, I said he needs to be able to create for himself if you have a team that struggles in that area. Hunter is so much better at creating his shot than Mikal. Much better ball handle and shot making ability off the dribble plus he’s stronger and attacks the rim and can get to the foul line.

To me Bridges was always overrated until he went to Brooklyn and folks were saying he was so good. I didn’t watch any Brooklyn games last season so I have no idea what was going on there but I do know that the Suns Mikal Bridges was always a role player to me. Even when he was in college all I saw from Mikal was high end role player. I feel like that’s what he brings to the Knicks now so why would you want to change him to be something he was in Phoenix when that guy was not much different besides he changed his shot mechanics and got worse as a shooter now.

Last time Mikal averaged 28 MPG he was averaging 9 PPG. Deandre Hunter has never averaged less than 12 PPG and has never averaged more than 32 mpg in a season and that happened once. So, yeah if you give Hunter more minutes and responsibility I’m pretty sure he can do a lot better than Mikal

You said that Boston and Cleveland had multiple guys that can create for themselves and other so I assumed you wanted a player that could do those things but apparently you don't expect that from Hunter. You want more from Mikal though I assume. If the Knicks traded 5 picks for a role player how can you be upset with the player for not being more than a role player? Shouldn't you be upset with the front office for paying so much for a role player or shouldn't you be upset with the coach for not using him in the same role?

And I was not saying Hunter would perform worse than Mikal I was saying Hunter would perform worse as a player if you gave him the role Mikal is playing for 38 minutes. I have no idea how he would compare to Mikal but he has struggled guarding quicker shifty guards in Atlanta and the more he passed, shot and dribbled the sloppier his game looked. There is a reason he averages 1.5 assists for his career as a wing less than the role player Mikal playing 28 minutes in Phoenix.

If everyone is being used in their proper role and some of them are just underperforming can you explain some of these numbers?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628969&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

Spoiler:

The Knicks traded for one the best defensive wings last year in OG and somehow they have designed a team where he is now grappling with other bigs most of the game or Thibs has him on an easier defensive matchup while Mikal takes the tough matchups most games. He finally put him on Tatum last Boston game but why would you put Mikal on Tatum in any game? Wouldn't it make sense to make use of OG's defensive abilities on ball more often? Mikal is more skilled offensively than OG. Wouldn't it make sense for the guy that is more skilled offensively and you want to do more as a 3rd option to conserve more of his energy for that role and be more involved in the offense?

OG's defensive impact was so much higher last year despite being the same player this year. I know losing iHart and Mitch being out changes things but maybe OG is just more effective as a 3/ part-time 4. Maybe he should be used that way. Mitch's return opens up the chance to play KAT at the 4 but maybe Thibs should have explored that more earlier in the season. Maybe he should have played Precious more at the 4 next to KAT to move OG down to the 3 more often. Maybe lower Mikal and Hart's minutes and make use of Deuce more as a better complimentary piece. I don't know

All I know is that this team is supposedly a top heavy team with limited depth and talent coming from the bench but the starting 5 man unit is not dominating despite being stacked with talent and playing so many minutes together against starters and bench units.

Brunson is an incredible offensive talent yet somehow this year the team performs 5-6 points better with him off the court. How is that even possible when your backup is Cameron Payne????? No disrespect to Payne but there is no way that should happen. If that doesn't say something isn't functioning properly I don't know what does.

At this point I am just hoping that the coach and the player are just holding some things back for the postseason and they have another level to take it to because what I have seen in the regular season so far has not been impressive although seeing OG's level of effort and activity defensively against Miami last night was encouraging.

You make no sense. If a player is better at dribbling, attacking, shooting and scoring, are you seriously asking me why I would prefer the player who is better at those things over the player who is not?

Mikal is not more skilled offensively than OG, this is a false statement

I agree about the team defense, guys probably aren’t in the best roles but with KAT at the 5 that was always going to be the challenge

The starting lineup is pretty flawed, not sure why you keep asking the same questions when you simply won’t accept the answers. Yeah they will have struggles because there are flaws both offensively and defensively. There are things that guys like Mikal are failing to provide and that’s what is leading to the struggles. Defensively we have the worst defenders in the league for their position at the 1 and 5 so that doesn’t help things at all.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You spent the last 5 years crashing out since we got Thibs to deflect your bad takes. A ban is nothing. I got more bans during the Melo days Saying a thread was made for me is a compliment, meaning I have power In the end I won. You lost every argument about KAT at the 5, you lost all your arguments about our ex young knicks, you lost the argument about donovan mitchell not being able to thrive next to a small guard, the list just keeps adding on bredren. You going out like Mavado.

Watch on YouTube

This is one of the most unhinged posts I've seen here outside of Wingo being threatend, this is a stats based board, and you have more posts about KAT (2300) than I have on Thibs (2100) in 5 years, how you gonna drop kick yourself so badly? You went from saying the thread wasn't made for you to now saying it's a powerful moment in time because they had to make a thread to contain a grown man's temper tantrum. Brother, it's a message board where you're not a mod, admin, or paying member, you don't have any power and neither do I. You're spiraling, I'm trying to keep this a friendly fade, but you're cracking and it's not looking pretty. I was right about Randle, that's the only thing that matters, and why you been so emotional lately. I got the melostein files too, but I wont drop them since I see how much this all means to you.


"I have power"

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUoV2hhdCBhcmUgeWl5IHRhbGtpbmYgYWdvdXQgYnJvIHdlYXRicm9vbQ%3D%3D

I posted the kartel and mavado as a joke cause we’re both from the islands. I didn’t think you would take it literally. It sounds like you really are butthurt about all them L’s you been taking. I didn’t know losing arguments on the internet was that serious to you. I can’t relate. And btw, I been talking about KAT since he was in Kentucky and wanted the Knicks to draft him. so obviously I would have more posts about him than thibs. Be fr

Nobody is butthurt, if I were I'd start posting concafa results between our countries, I think you're just too used to going at people who are a lot more friendly because I've said far worse to you in the past and we've laughed about it. I would have thought the Kendrick "Friendly fade" line or "Melostein files" with Epstein being in the news would have helped show that, but without adding a smiley you take it as an attack. As we're both Islanders, I understand that you're never going to admit you took an L on Randle and I'm never going to admit I took an L either, we're at an impasse, but you still have more posts about KAT than I do Thibs, the advanced metrics don't matter. I'll start using Boxden smileys to relay my emotions

[JayTWill]

I never said the 3rd option has to create for others, I said he needs to be able to create for himself if you have a team that struggles in that area. Hunter is so much better at creating his shot than Mikal. Much better ball handle and shot making ability off the dribble plus he’s stronger and attacks the rim and can get to the foul line.

To me Bridges was always overrated until he went to Brooklyn and folks were saying he was so good. I didn’t watch any Brooklyn games last season so I have no idea what was going on there but I do know that the Suns Mikal Bridges was always a role player to me. Even when he was in college all I saw from Mikal was high end role player. I feel like that’s what he brings to the Knicks now so why would you want to change him to be something he was in Phoenix when that guy was not much different besides he changed his shot mechanics and got worse as a shooter now.

Last time Mikal averaged 28 MPG he was averaging 9 PPG. Deandre Hunter has never averaged less than 12 PPG and has never averaged more than 32 mpg in a season and that happened once. So, yeah if you give Hunter more minutes and responsibility I’m pretty sure he can do a lot better than Mikal

You said that Boston and Cleveland had multiple guys that can create for themselves and other so I assumed you wanted a player that could do those things but apparently you don't expect that from Hunter. You want more from Mikal though I assume. If the Knicks traded 5 picks for a role player how can you be upset with the player for not being more than a role player? Shouldn't you be upset with the front office for paying so much for a role player or shouldn't you be upset with the coach for not using him in the same role?

And I was not saying Hunter would perform worse than Mikal I was saying Hunter would perform worse as a player if you gave him the role Mikal is playing for 38 minutes. I have no idea how he would compare to Mikal but he has struggled guarding quicker shifty guards in Atlanta and the more he passed, shot and dribbled the sloppier his game looked. There is a reason he averages 1.5 assists for his career as a wing less than the role player Mikal playing 28 minutes in Phoenix.

If everyone is being used in their proper role and some of them are just underperforming can you explain some of these numbers?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628969&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

Spoiler:

The Knicks traded for one the best defensive wings last year in OG and somehow they have designed a team where he is now grappling with other bigs most of the game or Thibs has him on an easier defensive matchup while Mikal takes the tough matchups most games. He finally put him on Tatum last Boston game but why would you put Mikal on Tatum in any game? Wouldn't it make sense to make use of OG's defensive abilities on ball more often? Mikal is more skilled offensively than OG. Wouldn't it make sense for the guy that is more skilled offensively and you want to do more as a 3rd option to conserve more of his energy for that role and be more involved in the offense?

OG's defensive impact was so much higher last year despite being the same player this year. I know losing iHart and Mitch being out changes things but maybe OG is just more effective as a 3/ part-time 4. Maybe he should be used that way. Mitch's return opens up the chance to play KAT at the 4 but maybe Thibs should have explored that more earlier in the season. Maybe he should have played Precious more at the 4 next to KAT to move OG down to the 3 more often. Maybe lower Mikal and Hart's minutes and make use of Deuce more as a better complimentary piece. I don't know

All I know is that this team is supposedly a top heavy team with limited depth and talent coming from the bench but the starting 5 man unit is not dominating despite being stacked with talent and playing so many minutes together against starters and bench units.

Brunson is an incredible offensive talent yet somehow this year the team performs 5-6 points better with him off the court. How is that even possible when your backup is Cameron Payne????? No disrespect to Payne but there is no way that should happen. If that doesn't say something isn't functioning properly I don't know what does.

At this point I am just hoping that the coach and the player are just holding some things back for the postseason and they have another level to take it to because what I have seen in the regular season so far has not been impressive although seeing OG's level of effort and activity defensively against Miami last night was encouraging.

You make no sense. If a player is better at dribbling, attacking, shooting and scoring, are you seriously asking me why I would prefer the player who is better at those things over the player who is not?

Mikal is not more skilled offensively than OG, this is a false statement

I agree about the team defense, guys probably aren’t in the best roles but with KAT at the 5 that was always going to be the challenge

The starting lineup is pretty flawed, not sure why you keep asking the same questions when you simply won’t accept the answers. Yeah they will have struggles because there are flaws both offensively and defensively. There are things that guys like Mikal are failing to provide and that’s what is leading to the struggles. Defensively we have the worst defenders in the league for their position at the 1 and 5 so that doesn’t help things at all.

I said a limited role player like Hunter would not benefit from a greater role on both offense and defense while playing bigger minutes just like Mikal wouldn't. Things don't get easier with a more difficult expanded role for more minutes.

And lets not get carried away. I love OG in his role but even his biggest supporters know he is incredibly awkward offensively. Sometimes when he has the ball in his hands I am honestly just hoping he does not hurt himself. Catch, shoot, cut, get out in transition, maybe a 1 dribble pull-up here and there but anything requiring more than 2 dribbles can get a little risky. Forget about if he has to do it with speed.

But serious question, with Brunson clearly being more talented offensively than most of the team how is the offensive rating almost exactly the same with him on as it is with him off the court? How is the offense able to survive without its best scorer and creator with a huge weak link like Mikal on the court?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

If I saw these numbers I would be asking what everyone could do better from the players to the coaches to the front office.

[HEZI]

You said that Boston and Cleveland had multiple guys that can create for themselves and other so I assumed you wanted a player that could do those things but apparently you don't expect that from Hunter. You want more from Mikal though I assume. If the Knicks traded 5 picks for a role player how can you be upset with the player for not being more than a role player? Shouldn't you be upset with the front office for paying so much for a role player or shouldn't you be upset with the coach for not using him in the same role?

And I was not saying Hunter would perform worse than Mikal I was saying Hunter would perform worse as a player if you gave him the role Mikal is playing for 38 minutes. I have no idea how he would compare to Mikal but he has struggled guarding quicker shifty guards in Atlanta and the more he passed, shot and dribbled the sloppier his game looked. There is a reason he averages 1.5 assists for his career as a wing less than the role player Mikal playing 28 minutes in Phoenix.

If everyone is being used in their proper role and some of them are just underperforming can you explain some of these numbers?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628969&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973,1628404&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

Spoiler:

The Knicks traded for one the best defensive wings last year in OG and somehow they have designed a team where he is now grappling with other bigs most of the game or Thibs has him on an easier defensive matchup while Mikal takes the tough matchups most games. He finally put him on Tatum last Boston game but why would you put Mikal on Tatum in any game? Wouldn't it make sense to make use of OG's defensive abilities on ball more often? Mikal is more skilled offensively than OG. Wouldn't it make sense for the guy that is more skilled offensively and you want to do more as a 3rd option to conserve more of his energy for that role and be more involved in the offense?

OG's defensive impact was so much higher last year despite being the same player this year. I know losing iHart and Mitch being out changes things but maybe OG is just more effective as a 3/ part-time 4. Maybe he should be used that way. Mitch's return opens up the chance to play KAT at the 4 but maybe Thibs should have explored that more earlier in the season. Maybe he should have played Precious more at the 4 next to KAT to move OG down to the 3 more often. Maybe lower Mikal and Hart's minutes and make use of Deuce more as a better complimentary piece. I don't know

All I know is that this team is supposedly a top heavy team with limited depth and talent coming from the bench but the starting 5 man unit is not dominating despite being stacked with talent and playing so many minutes together against starters and bench units.

Brunson is an incredible offensive talent yet somehow this year the team performs 5-6 points better with him off the court. How is that even possible when your backup is Cameron Payne????? No disrespect to Payne but there is no way that should happen. If that doesn't say something isn't functioning properly I don't know what does.

At this point I am just hoping that the coach and the player are just holding some things back for the postseason and they have another level to take it to because what I have seen in the regular season so far has not been impressive although seeing OG's level of effort and activity defensively against Miami last night was encouraging.

You make no sense. If a player is better at dribbling, attacking, shooting and scoring, are you seriously asking me why I would prefer the player who is better at those things over the player who is not?

Mikal is not more skilled offensively than OG, this is a false statement

I agree about the team defense, guys probably aren’t in the best roles but with KAT at the 5 that was always going to be the challenge

The starting lineup is pretty flawed, not sure why you keep asking the same questions when you simply won’t accept the answers. Yeah they will have struggles because there are flaws both offensively and defensively. There are things that guys like Mikal are failing to provide and that’s what is leading to the struggles. Defensively we have the worst defenders in the league for their position at the 1 and 5 so that doesn’t help things at all.

I said a limited role player like Hunter would not benefit from a greater role on both offense and defense while playing bigger minutes just like Mikal wouldn't. Things don't get easier with a more difficult expanded role for more minutes.

And lets not get carried away. I love OG in his role but even his biggest supporters know he is incredibly awkward offensively. Sometimes when he has the ball in his hands I am honestly just hoping he does not hurt himself. Catch, shoot, cut, get out in transition, maybe a 1 dribble pull-up here and there but anything requiring more than 2 dribbles can get a little risky. Forget about if he has to do it with speed.

But serious question, with Brunson clearly being more talented offensively than most of the team how is the offensive rating almost exactly the same with him on as it is with him off the court? How is the offense able to survive without its best scorer and creator with a huge weak link like Mikal on the court?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

If I saw these numbers I would be asking what everyone could do better from the players to the coaches to the front office.

It’s not a bigger role, you are still getting the same player who plays the same way and asking him to play his game. You aren’t making him into something he’s not or asking him to do something he doesn’t already do. So no those things don’t change. You are just assuming things but there’s nothing to suggest you would see a drop off in production just by making him a full time starter. Look what happened with Norman Powell.

I agree with you on OG, he certainly has limitations offensively but he plays a more physical style of basketball and is better against tougher opponents because unlike Mikal, OG can actually exploit some mismatches due to his strength and aggressiveness. He's bigger, stronger, doesn’t get pushed off his spot like Mikal, attacks strong and gets to the line. What I disagree with is you saying Mikal is more talented. He’s just not.

The offensive rating question is probably due to KAT playing with the bench. Brunson and KAT don’t really play as a duo and I rarely see them execute a 2 man game consistently. Brunson prefers to play iso so he will waive off a lot of screens to take his man 1 on 1. It’s when Brunson sits that KAT gets opportunities to do his own thing a little more so the staggering by Thibs has helped in keeping the bench afloat because overall our bench just hasn’t been good as a unit. But another thing you have to look at is who does the other team have on the floor when one guy sits and the other is in the game. Opponent matchups play a factor too.

[JayTWill]

You make no sense. If a player is better at dribbling, attacking, shooting and scoring, are you seriously asking me why I would prefer the player who is better at those things over the player who is not?

Mikal is not more skilled offensively than OG, this is a false statement

I agree about the team defense, guys probably aren’t in the best roles but with KAT at the 5 that was always going to be the challenge

The starting lineup is pretty flawed, not sure why you keep asking the same questions when you simply won’t accept the answers. Yeah they will have struggles because there are flaws both offensively and defensively. There are things that guys like Mikal are failing to provide and that’s what is leading to the struggles. Defensively we have the worst defenders in the league for their position at the 1 and 5 so that doesn’t help things at all.

I said a limited role player like Hunter would not benefit from a greater role on both offense and defense while playing bigger minutes just like Mikal wouldn't. Things don't get easier with a more difficult expanded role for more minutes.

And lets not get carried away. I love OG in his role but even his biggest supporters know he is incredibly awkward offensively. Sometimes when he has the ball in his hands I am honestly just hoping he does not hurt himself. Catch, shoot, cut, get out in transition, maybe a 1 dribble pull-up here and there but anything requiring more than 2 dribbles can get a little risky. Forget about if he has to do it with speed.

But serious question, with Brunson clearly being more talented offensively than most of the team how is the offensive rating almost exactly the same with him on as it is with him off the court? How is the offense able to survive without its best scorer and creator with a huge weak link like Mikal on the court?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

If I saw these numbers I would be asking what everyone could do better from the players to the coaches to the front office.

It’s not a bigger role, you are still getting the same player who plays the same way and asking him to play his game. You aren’t making him into something he’s not or asking him to do something he doesn’t already do. So no those things don’t change. You are just assuming things but there’s nothing to suggest you would see a drop off in production just by making him a full time starter. Look what happened with Norman Powell.

I agree with you on OG, he certainly has limitations offensively but he plays a more physical style of basketball and is better against tougher opponents because unlike Mikal, OG can actually exploit some mismatches due to his strength and aggressiveness. He's bigger, stronger, doesn’t get pushed off his spot like Mikal, attacks strong and gets to the line. What I disagree with is you saying Mikal is more talented. He’s just not.

The offensive rating question is probably due to KAT playing with the bench. Brunson and KAT don’t really play as a duo and I rarely see them execute a 2 man game consistently. Brunson prefers to play iso so he will waive off a lot of screens to take his man 1 on 1. It’s when Brunson sits that KAT gets opportunities to do his own thing a little more so the staggering by Thibs has helped in keeping the bench afloat because overall our bench just hasn’t been good as a unit. But another thing you have to look at is who does the other team have on the floor when one guy sits and the other is in the game. Opponent matchups play a factor too.

If the Knicks brought in Hunter instead of Mikal i'm assuming he would be taking Mikal's place in the starting lineup. Thibs would play him almost 40 minutes just like the rest of the other wings. Playing 28 off the bench is a big difference from playing 38 as a starter.

In ATL Daniels was the point of attack defender. He took the toughest perimeter matchup most of the game. The other day when I watched the Cavs Okoro was guarding Morant and and Hunter was guarding Aldama off the bench.

Tomorrow the Knicks play the Warriors. Chasing around Steph Curry from jumpball and then possibly guarding Butler and a few other guys is a little different than just guarding Butler for shorter stints and some random bench guys. OG will probably guard Butler. Maybe Thibs decides to finally let Brunson or Hart take on a more difficult defensive matchup but if not guarding Steph is going to affect someone like Hunter's offense while also exposing some of his defensive limitations.

As you mentioned Brunson is a bit of a one man show. This is not playing next to Trae Young who is a much better facilitator. This is not coming off the bench and getting to be more of the focal point. This is not a high pace offense like Atlanta's or Cleveland's. There is going to be a lot of standing around and watching and a lot of difficult shots. Last night watching Miami, Alec Burks' shots for the Heat looked a lot easier than Alec Burks' shots for the Knicks last year. He has been far more efficient with the Heat just as he was in Detroit.

Maybe Hunter would have success as a difficult shot maker like Brunson, DDV or KAT or maybe he would struggle like many other guys in Thibs offense. There is no guarantee it would translate but I think it would be more difficult than his current situation. Being in a pretty stagnant and predictable offense surrounded by some pretty bad defenders is not a simple task.

[HEZI]

I said a limited role player like Hunter would not benefit from a greater role on both offense and defense while playing bigger minutes just like Mikal wouldn't. Things don't get easier with a more difficult expanded role for more minutes.

And lets not get carried away. I love OG in his role but even his biggest supporters know he is incredibly awkward offensively. Sometimes when he has the ball in his hands I am honestly just hoping he does not hurt himself. Catch, shoot, cut, get out in transition, maybe a 1 dribble pull-up here and there but anything requiring more than 2 dribbles can get a little risky. Forget about if he has to do it with speed.

But serious question, with Brunson clearly being more talented offensively than most of the team how is the offensive rating almost exactly the same with him on as it is with him off the court? How is the offense able to survive without its best scorer and creator with a huge weak link like Mikal on the court?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628969,1628973&OnlyCommonGames=true

If I saw these numbers I would be asking what everyone could do better from the players to the coaches to the front office.

It’s not a bigger role, you are still getting the same player who plays the same way and asking him to play his game. You aren’t making him into something he’s not or asking him to do something he doesn’t already do. So no those things don’t change. You are just assuming things but there’s nothing to suggest you would see a drop off in production just by making him a full time starter. Look what happened with Norman Powell.

I agree with you on OG, he certainly has limitations offensively but he plays a more physical style of basketball and is better against tougher opponents because unlike Mikal, OG can actually exploit some mismatches due to his strength and aggressiveness. He's bigger, stronger, doesn’t get pushed off his spot like Mikal, attacks strong and gets to the line. What I disagree with is you saying Mikal is more talented. He’s just not.

The offensive rating question is probably due to KAT playing with the bench. Brunson and KAT don’t really play as a duo and I rarely see them execute a 2 man game consistently. Brunson prefers to play iso so he will waive off a lot of screens to take his man 1 on 1. It’s when Brunson sits that KAT gets opportunities to do his own thing a little more so the staggering by Thibs has helped in keeping the bench afloat because overall our bench just hasn’t been good as a unit. But another thing you have to look at is who does the other team have on the floor when one guy sits and the other is in the game. Opponent matchups play a factor too.

If the Knicks brought in Hunter instead of Mikal i'm assuming he would be taking Mikal's place in the starting lineup. Thibs would play him almost 40 minutes just like the rest of the other wings. Playing 28 off the bench is a big difference from playing 38 as a starter.

In ATL Daniels was the point of attack defender. He took the toughest perimeter matchup most of the game. The other day when I watched the Cavs Okoro was guarding Morant and and Hunter was guarding Aldama off the bench.

Tomorrow the Knicks play the Warriors. Chasing around Steph Curry from jumpball and then possibly guarding Butler and a few other guys is a little different than just guarding Butler for shorter stints and some random bench guys. OG will probably guard Butler. Maybe Thibs decides to finally let Brunson or Hart take on a more difficult defensive matchup but if not guarding Steph is going to affect someone like Hunter's offense while also exposing some of his defensive limitations.

As you mentioned Brunson is a bit of a one man show. This is not playing next to Trae Young who is a much better facilitator. This is not coming off the bench and getting to be more of the focal point. This is not a high pace offense like Atlanta's or Cleveland's. There is going to be a lot of standing around and watching and a lot of difficult shots. Last night watching Miami, Alec Burks' shots for the Heat looked a lot easier than Alec Burks' shots for the Knicks last year. He has been far more efficient with the Heat just as he was in Detroit.

Maybe Hunter would have success as a difficult shot maker like Brunson, DDV or KAT or maybe he would struggle like many other guys in Thibs offense. There is no guarantee it would translate but I think it would be more difficult than his current situation. Being in a pretty stagnant and predictable offense surrounded by some pretty bad defenders is not a simple task.

Yeah guys really struggle in Thibs offense that’s why we keep seeing breakout players year after year. Not everybody fits, that doesn’t mean it’s the fault of the coach or the offense, maybe it’s just the player is limited.

You aren’t familiar with Hunter, he’s so much more skilled than Bridges and he doesn’t need to be set up for open looks like Bridges does.

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When have you ever seen Mikal jab step from above the break and knock down a shot with a defender in his face? He can shoot off the dribble plus he’s a better spot up shooter and that would fit our style way better than what Mikal can do or can’t do.

He's just so much more skilled and better than Bridges. On defense he is bigger and stronger and can guard the same guys that OG can so they would be interchangeable.

[JayTWill]

Spoiler:

It’s not a bigger role, you are still getting the same player who plays the same way and asking him to play his game. You aren’t making him into something he’s not or asking him to do something he doesn’t already do. So no those things don’t change. You are just assuming things but there’s nothing to suggest you would see a drop off in production just by making him a full time starter. Look what happened with Norman Powell.

I agree with you on OG, he certainly has limitations offensively but he plays a more physical style of basketball and is better against tougher opponents because unlike Mikal, OG can actually exploit some mismatches due to his strength and aggressiveness. He's bigger, stronger, doesn’t get pushed off his spot like Mikal, attacks strong and gets to the line. What I disagree with is you saying Mikal is more talented. He’s just not.

The offensive rating question is probably due to KAT playing with the bench. Brunson and KAT don’t really play as a duo and I rarely see them execute a 2 man game consistently. Brunson prefers to play iso so he will waive off a lot of screens to take his man 1 on 1. It’s when Brunson sits that KAT gets opportunities to do his own thing a little more so the staggering by Thibs has helped in keeping the bench afloat because overall our bench just hasn’t been good as a unit. But another thing you have to look at is who does the other team have on the floor when one guy sits and the other is in the game. Opponent matchups play a factor too.

If the Knicks brought in Hunter instead of Mikal i'm assuming he would be taking Mikal's place in the starting lineup. Thibs would play him almost 40 minutes just like the rest of the other wings. Playing 28 off the bench is a big difference from playing 38 as a starter.

In ATL Daniels was the point of attack defender. He took the toughest perimeter matchup most of the game. The other day when I watched the Cavs Okoro was guarding Morant and and Hunter was guarding Aldama off the bench.

Tomorrow the Knicks play the Warriors. Chasing around Steph Curry from jumpball and then possibly guarding Butler and a few other guys is a little different than just guarding Butler for shorter stints and some random bench guys. OG will probably guard Butler. Maybe Thibs decides to finally let Brunson or Hart take on a more difficult defensive matchup but if not guarding Steph is going to affect someone like Hunter's offense while also exposing some of his defensive limitations.

As you mentioned Brunson is a bit of a one man show. This is not playing next to Trae Young who is a much better facilitator. This is not coming off the bench and getting to be more of the focal point. This is not a high pace offense like Atlanta's or Cleveland's. There is going to be a lot of standing around and watching and a lot of difficult shots. Last night watching Miami, Alec Burks' shots for the Heat looked a lot easier than Alec Burks' shots for the Knicks last year. He has been far more efficient with the Heat just as he was in Detroit.

Maybe Hunter would have success as a difficult shot maker like Brunson, DDV or KAT or maybe he would struggle like many other guys in Thibs offense. There is no guarantee it would translate but I think it would be more difficult than his current situation. Being in a pretty stagnant and predictable offense surrounded by some pretty bad defenders is not a simple task.

Yeah guys really struggle in Thibs offense that’s why we keep seeing breakout players year after year. Not everybody fits, that doesn’t mean it’s the fault of the coach or the offense, maybe it’s just the player is limited.

You aren’t familiar with Hunter, he’s so much more skilled than Bridges and he doesn’t need to be set up for open looks like Bridges does.

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When have you ever seen Mikal jab step from above the break and knock down a shot with a defender in his face? He can shoot off the dribble plus he’s a better spot up shooter and that would fit our style way better than what Mikal can do or can’t do.

He's just so much more skilled and better than Bridges. On defense he is bigger and stronger and can guard the same guys that OG can so they would be interchangeable.

The "breakout season" is just some narrative from some Knicks' fans. Brunson was already breaking out before his arrival to the Knicks. We saw him carrying the Mavs in the postseason without Luka. He has more opportunities to shine here.

Randle had the worst efficiency of his career here but he put up some good counting stats and won some awards. This team was going nowhere in the postseason with him in his role. Minnesota probably would prefer him as a more efficient 3rd big/spot starter rather than whatever Thibs helped to nurture. iHart's number actually went down across the board except for rebounding from his time in LA and it took the entire roster getting traded or injured to truly show what he was capable of here. Some people thought he wouldn't even find a role in OKC. KAT has put up some monstrous offensive numbers throughout his career. DDV did maintain his efficiency from Golden State with the increased volume. Credit to him.

Thibs offensive system simply puts the ball in certain players hands more often for better or worse. There is nothing special about it. He has always been known as a defensive guy but I don't know what poor/average defenders came here and got better under Thibs outside of Randle for 1 year.

There have been players that have been bad here that would be bad in many situations like Reddish but there have also been guys that have performed better away from Thibs. Just last year people were having the same discussions about Grimes that we are having about Mikal. Grimes did not do enough in many minds and Bogey was an efficient 20 point scorer that could shoot and get a bucket. People didn't appreciate Grimes' role in the defense and how difficult it is to fit into Thibs' offense. Now Grimes looks better elsewhere and Bogey fell on his face here.

I'm not questioning Hunter's skillset. I'm questioning if it would translate here since it is a different situation than he has been in before. It's not just 38 minutes Mikal is playing. It's entire 2nd halves if the game is close. It's 40+ in b2b. It's not just guarding the big guards and forwards. It's guarding the quick guards too. I love OG's game but we watched how difficult it was for him to chase Maxey around screens with Embiid opening up the court for him in the postseason. Now imagine what it would have looked like with KAT behind him.

I actually think Hunter could fit better in place of Mikal if I knew Thibs would swap Deuce for Hart in the starting lineup to defend the quicker guards and space the floor better but Hart feels like his new Randle where he will play him no matter what. In the end I wouldn't do it because Hunter and KAT's knees, Mitch's ankles and OG's everything mixed with Thibs seems like a recipe for disaster.