2024-2025 Regular Season Game 63: Toronto Raptors (19-42) at Orlando Magic (29-33) - 7pm

[Audi]

People seem to be missing the Paolo argument.

Is he the source of the entire problem? No.
Is he a symptom of the problems on offense? Kinda.

You always look to who is the primary offense is geared toward and what their usage happens to be in wins and losses.
Paolo isn't an efficient player. He could be more efficient with a point guard and shooters. Suggs does half of this with creation and its no mystery that the offense looks better with him in an ancillary way.

Nobody here is saying Paolo sucks and is the reason the offense sucks. People are pointing out that him being the #1 option is absolutely a problem within the context of the roster right now. That isn't some hot take here. It's almost entirely factual. As a #1 option he has the same exact skillset as Franz, doesn't often look to shoot beyond the arc, relies on drawing fouls instead of finishing, etc.

It’s also not really his fault that the system is just basically trash for him. Its absolutely a problem that he's our #1 option on offense based on usage if you DO NOT trust this front office to actually make him look efficient and develop a passable floor game.

And yet - there are some here who’s next logical step isn’t “axe the FO because they can’t be trusted to make him look efficient”, it’s “trade him”.

Has ANYBODY actually said "Trade him"?

Same s**t, different day and star player. Where every thread is a meltdown and every idea is a threat or a conspiracy

I mean, for example you have zaymon literally a few posts earlier saying he plays losing basketball and blames others for it, “trade asap”. Unless I missed green font…

It’s sad that it’s going this way, but Paolo Banchero is not more important than Orlando Magic. Guys is playing losing basketball and he blames others just like his mother. I thought he is better than that. Trade asap.

[Skybox]

And yet - there are some here who’s next logical step isn’t “axe the FO because they can’t be trusted to make him look efficient”, it’s “trade him”.

Has ANYBODY actually said "Trade him"?

Same s**t, different day and star player. Where every thread is a meltdown and every idea is a threat or a conspiracy

I mean, for example you have zaymon literally a few posts earlier saying he plays losing basketball and blames others for it, “trade asap”. Unless I missed green font…

It’s sad that it’s going this way, but Paolo Banchero is not more important than Orlando Magic. Guys is playing losing basketball and he blames others just like his mother. I thought he is better than that. Trade asap.

Wow...ok. I didn't think it really possible.

[AdamTheGreek]

Last 2 minutes report is out.

It acknowledges that Orlando Robinson should’ve been called for an illegal screen on KCP that led to the Walter go-ahead 3.
And Orlando Robinson should’ve been called for a foul for impeding WCJ on the alley oop.

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022400883


Never should’ve come down to that, but we got hosed.

[eyriq]

Last 2 minutes report is out.

It acknowledges that Orlando Robinson should’ve been called for an illegal screen on KCP that led to the Walter go-ahead 3.
And Orlando Robinson should’ve been called for a foul for impeding WCJ on the alley oop.

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022400883


Never should’ve come down to that, but we got hosed.

The basketball gods hate us

[IllMagic04]

People seem to be missing the Paolo argument.

Is he the source of the entire problem? No.
Is he a symptom of the problems on offense? Kinda.

You always look to who is the primary offense is geared toward and what their usage happens to be in wins and losses.
Paolo isn't an efficient player. He could be more efficient with a point guard and shooters. Suggs does half of this with creation and its no mystery that the offense looks better with him in an ancillary way.

Nobody here is saying Paolo sucks and is the reason the offense sucks. People are pointing out that him being the #1 option is absolutely a problem within the context of the roster right now. That isn't some hot take here. It's almost entirely factual. As a #1 option he has the same exact skillset as Franz, doesn't often look to shoot beyond the arc, relies on drawing fouls instead of finishing, etc.

It’s also not really his fault that the system is just basically trash for him. Its absolutely a problem that he's our #1 option on offense based on usage if you DO NOT trust this front office to actually make him look efficient and develop a passable floor game.

And yet - there are some here who’s next logical step isn’t “axe the FO because they can’t be trusted to make him look efficient”, it’s “trade him”.

It's a catch 22 based on the decisions they've already made though.

They have already maxed Franz and given Suggs a large deal. Both of those guys IN MY OPINION are untouchable unless its for a superstar return. So people are naturally weighing other options. You either believe a roster is salvageable with those contracts, or it will be a difficult uphill battle. Franz offense is too valuable and Suggs defense is basically the team identity if they DO NOT have a functional system in place.

Im camp "FIRE FO" regardless. Its not even a question and hasn't been for years. Paolo hasnt necessarily inspired supreme confidence though as a primary option on offense though, which is his entire game... The question becomes... "Does a complete change of the system on offense with a point guard change his game completely?" I lean no. He is who he is. But id love to be wong and see the alternative regardless.

It's just whether or not you want to hand him a completely max deal and suffer the consequences should he not change with a system update, because then we are kinda screwed.

Id move Franz or Suggs before Id move Paolo. I don't want to move any but if my hand was forced its Paolo>Franz> Suggs.

[VFX]

And yet - there are some here who’s next logical step isn’t “axe the FO because they can’t be trusted to make him look efficient”, it’s “trade him”.

It's a catch 22 based on the decisions they've already made though.

They have already maxed Franz and given Suggs a large deal. Both of those guys IN MY OPINION are untouchable unless its for a superstar return. So people are naturally weighing other options. You either believe a roster is salvageable with those contracts, or it will be a difficult uphill battle. Franz offense is too valuable and Suggs defense is basically the team identity if they DO NOT have a functional system in place.

Im camp "FIRE FO" regardless. Its not even a question and hasn't been for years. Paolo hasnt necessarily inspired supreme confidence though as a primary option on offense though, which is his entire game... The question becomes... "Does a complete change of the system on offense with a point guard change his game completely?" I lean no. He is who he is. But id love to be wong and see the alternative regardless.

It's just whether or not you want to hand him a completely max deal and suffer the consequences should he not change with a system update, because then we are kinda screwed.

Id move Franz or Suggs before Id move Paolo. I don't want to move any but if my hand was forced its Paolo>Franz> Suggs.

So you would move the two guys with elite translatable skillsets before the guy that doesn't really have one?

Thats certainly a choice.

[IllMagic04]

It's a catch 22 based on the decisions they've already made though.

They have already maxed Franz and given Suggs a large deal. Both of those guys IN MY OPINION are untouchable unless its for a superstar return. So people are naturally weighing other options. You either believe a roster is salvageable with those contracts, or it will be a difficult uphill battle. Franz offense is too valuable and Suggs defense is basically the team identity if they DO NOT have a functional system in place.

Im camp "FIRE FO" regardless. Its not even a question and hasn't been for years. Paolo hasnt necessarily inspired supreme confidence though as a primary option on offense though, which is his entire game... The question becomes... "Does a complete change of the system on offense with a point guard change his game completely?" I lean no. He is who he is. But id love to be wong and see the alternative regardless.

It's just whether or not you want to hand him a completely max deal and suffer the consequences should he not change with a system update, because then we are kinda screwed.

Id move Franz or Suggs before Id move Paolo. I don't want to move any but if my hand was forced its Paolo>Franz> Suggs.

So you would move the two guys with elite translatable skillsets before the guy that doesn't really have one?

Thats certainly a choice.

I don't want to but if my hand was forced yes. Because Paolo has the ability to take over a game offensively. Franz can too but not to the level of Paolo. I still believe Paolo will be an MVP candidate. He was on that path prior to the injury this year. Imagine if we could stretch the floor and the lane was more open for him to get down hill. We haven't even begun to unlock his play making ability.

[Skybox]

It's a catch 22 based on the decisions they've already made though.

They have already maxed Franz and given Suggs a large deal. Both of those guys IN MY OPINION are untouchable unless its for a superstar return. So people are naturally weighing other options. You either believe a roster is salvageable with those contracts, or it will be a difficult uphill battle. Franz offense is too valuable and Suggs defense is basically the team identity if they DO NOT have a functional system in place.

Im camp "FIRE FO" regardless. Its not even a question and hasn't been for years. Paolo hasnt necessarily inspired supreme confidence though as a primary option on offense though, which is his entire game... The question becomes... "Does a complete change of the system on offense with a point guard change his game completely?" I lean no. He is who he is. But id love to be wong and see the alternative regardless.

It's just whether or not you want to hand him a completely max deal and suffer the consequences should he not change with a system update, because then we are kinda screwed.

Id move Franz or Suggs before Id move Paolo. I don't want to move any but if my hand was forced its Paolo>Franz> Suggs.

So you would move the two guys with elite translatable skillsets before the guy that doesn't really have one?

Thats certainly a choice.

It's clear you have a preference...but to dismiss what Paolo does every night is ludicrous. He's an unstoppable force. Great teams have a variety of looks-his team doesn't. Franz scores just as many points but he benefits quite a bit from Paolo's "mob gravity". I could make a great case for Franz too...but can't dismiss Paolo as a rising potential superstar. Franz' game is already so refined that it's easier, imo, to project a higher superstar ceiling for Paolo (which he might never see, of course). There's only so many guys that can take over a game, draw fouls at an elite level, and function in crowds with Paolo's physicality the way he does. That style is built for the playoffs. Franz gets physically bullied at times in ways that Paolo will never experience. Franz will also improve, but his finishing around the basket is already sooo good.

I'll call them equally valuable with similar stats in different styles...If you don't think Paolo gets a max the first minute it's available - that's delusional. I was opposed to Franz' max - but he played up to it almost immediately. Suggs' deal value remains to be seen. I love what he brings, but I loved what a healthy Isaac brought too.

[KillMonger]

Was there really not one timeout called during Toronto's 22-4 run?

Sent from my [Sidekick 5G] using RealGM mobile app

[SOUL]

Was there really not one timeout called during Toronto's 22-4 run?

Sent from my [Sidekick 5G] using RealGM mobile app

There was about three ref initiated flagrant reviews in that time span to talk things over.

[drsd]

Which problem do you blame?

Paolo going into whole team and forcing a midranger ? Then we wonder why our offense has no rhytm and shooters score 0 points.....

Paolo is to blame because he shouldn’t take this shot.
ALSO
Paolo is not to blame because he shouldn’t have to take this shot.

He is clearly forcing a foul though; which is always a good offensive play. Run into moving players. That's sound offense.

[JF5]

And yet - there are some here who’s next logical step isn’t “axe the FO because they can’t be trusted to make him look efficient”, it’s “trade him”.

Has ANYBODY actually said "Trade him"?

Same s**t, different day and star player. Where every thread is a meltdown and every idea is a threat or a conspiracy

It’s definitely been said

Yeah, it's either frustration or the lack of BB knowledge. For myself having a season like this I'm okay with because Franz became a player who looks like he'll be a top 5-10 player along with Paolo.

If the team is constructed correctly and guys remain healthy, this team is likely to be contenders and win multiple titles for the next 7-10 years with these 2. I don't think people realize that possibility right now given the limitless ceilings that Paolo and Franz have.

Gotta find the silverlining

[Knightro]

Just some wild stuff said (both directions, but more in one direction) the last couple of pages.

The overestimation of certain things is, I dunno man. It’s a lot.

[zaymon]

Has ANYBODY actually said "Trade him"?

Same s**t, different day and star player. Where every thread is a meltdown and every idea is a threat or a conspiracy

I mean, for example you have zaymon literally a few posts earlier saying he plays losing basketball and blames others for it, “trade asap”. Unless I missed green font…

It’s sad that it’s going this way, but Paolo Banchero is not more important than Orlando Magic. Guys is playing losing basketball and he blames others just like his mother. I thought he is better than that. Trade asap.

Wow...ok. I didn't think it really possible.

Yes i wrote it Come on guys we are grown ups here. I dont know if you noticed but Doncic was just traded and he is better now than Paolo ever be. Like pepe wrote, #1 picks get traded and usually its not the end of the world.
I know blaming Gary and KCP for all the bad in the world is attractive but sometimes when everyone struggles the main problem is the guy running the show not everybody.
Can Paolo become good winning player ? Yes he has the tools, thats why i wanted him #1. I just wouldnt bet on that and i think banking on him becoming good is a low chance strategy while we can build around Franz world champion and assets we can get from Paolo whose value is still high but wont be forever if he plays like this and has attitude like he had.

[Bensational]

I thought the offense was looking better from a team standpoint. Everyone got touches. Ball was moving. I hope they keep building on that even though they had a couple of tough losses. Getting punked by Raptor’s 2nd unit is the biggest stinger.

[VFX]

Just some wild stuff said (both directions, but more in one direction) the last couple of pages.

The overestimation of certain things is, I dunno man. It’s a lot.

Usually I wouldn’t ask, but I’d actually love to know specifically what you’re referencing here.

[SOUL]

Read on Twitter

Refs said there were two fouls: One on the JaKobe three and one on the WCJ lob. Wow lol

[Idiosyncratic]

I thought the offense was looking better from a team standpoint. Everyone got touches. Ball was moving. I hope they keep building on that even though they had a couple of tough losses. Getting punked by Raptor’s 2nd unit is the biggest stinger.

Offense was fine, I would say rebounding was the main issue. Nobody rebounded well.

At the end of the day they lost to a team that is borderline trying to lose so I can't even take much positive from the offense or anything for that matter. You lose to the Raptors at home twice in a row and you are looking at lottery odds IMO.

[Bensational]

I thought the offense was looking better from a team standpoint. Everyone got touches. Ball was moving. I hope they keep building on that even though they had a couple of tough losses. Getting punked by Raptor’s 2nd unit is the biggest stinger.

Offense was fine, I would say rebounding was the main issue. Nobody rebounded well.

At the end of the day they lost to a team that is borderline trying to lose so I can't even take much positive from the offense or anything for that matter. You lose to the Raptors at home twice in a row and you are looking at lottery odds IMO.

Bulls are threading the needle right now. Bad enough to have 8th best lottery odds but still playing for that final play-in spot. And there’s still a 4 game gap between them and the Magic.

[Idiosyncratic]

I thought the offense was looking better from a team standpoint. Everyone got touches. Ball was moving. I hope they keep building on that even though they had a couple of tough losses. Getting punked by Raptor’s 2nd unit is the biggest stinger.

Offense was fine, I would say rebounding was the main issue. Nobody rebounded well.

At the end of the day they lost to a team that is borderline trying to lose so I can't even take much positive from the offense or anything for that matter. You lose to the Raptors at home twice in a row and you are looking at lottery odds IMO.

Bulls are threading the needle right now. Bad enough to have 8th best lottery odds but still playing for that final play-in spot. And there’s still a 4 game gap between them and the Magic.

Yup which is why tanking is nearly impossible. I think we are likely looking at a rematch with the Cavs at this point

Would be hilarious to see the Bulls make the playoffs and miss the lottery though at their record.