2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[SA37]

It's not so much a critique, rather a statement on how Denver runs their offense. Jokic may be the only guy capable of being used the way Denver uses him, but he racks up lots of assists just handing the ball to a guy running/curling off him then setting a screen on their defender, often at the top of the key area. It leads to lots of assists, and inflates numbers to a degree. It plays out very well in formulas many here use to discuss basketball. I'd like to see it translate to beating good teams in the playoffs, upsetting a team or 2 like a guy like Luka has, etc. You can argue the same about SGA for now, but it looks like the west is OKCs to lose this year so that might not be the case much longer.

I find the line of argument over "empty" assists pretty weak. The 3-point argument is absurd. Is the next argument going to be he gets lots of rebounds because he is tall and stands near the basket?

No issue if you think SGA should get the MVP, but c'mon.

Are most of his 3s not standstill looks from the top of the key? How reliable is that in crunchtime in a deep playoffs series against a quality opponent, vs. being able to generate looks off the dribble?

This line of argument reminds me of when people used to say Shaq could only dunk. My take is unstoppable is unstoppable.

Most centers do not generate looks off the dribble. Most players do not make 44% of their 3s, especially on 4.4 shots per game. I don't know this for sure, but I am going to guess if Jokic ends the season anywhere around 44%, it will be the highest 3-point % by a center with at least 3 attempts per game. (Not sure what the minimum number of attempts is to be eligible for consideration for best % in the league.)

The fact Jokic is top 5 almost across the board is absolutely insane (reminder: ppg, rpg, apg, spg, 3pt %, double-doubles, and triple doubles) and I can't think of another player who has been able to do that regardless of position. Then add in he is likely to become only the 3rd player in history to average a triple-double in a single season. It's just one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA.

[hardenASG13]

I find the line of argument over "empty" assists pretty weak. The 3-point argument is absurd. Is the next argument going to be he gets lots of rebounds because he is tall and stands near the basket?

No issue if you think SGA should get the MVP, but c'mon.

Are most of his 3s not standstill looks from the top of the key? How reliable is that in crunchtime in a deep playoffs series against a quality opponent, vs. being able to generate looks off the dribble?

This line of argument reminds me of when people used to say Shaq could only dunk. My take is unstoppable is unstoppable.

Most centers do not generate looks off the dribble. Most players do not make 44% of their 3s, especially on 4.4 shots per game. I don't know this for sure, but I am going to guess if Jokic ends the season anywhere around 44%, it will be the highest 3-point % by a center with at least 3 attempts per game. (Not sure what the minimum number of attempts is to be eligible for consideration for best % in the league.)

The fact Jokic is top 5 almost across the board is absolutely insane (reminder: ppg, rpg, apg, spg, 3pt %, double-doubles, and triple doubles) and I can't think of another player who has been able to do that regardless of position. Then add in he is likely to become only the 3rd player in history to average a triple-double in a single season. It's just one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA.

There's no doubt he's a great shooter, especially for a guy his size. In terms of where he sits in 3pt % though, with most of his looks coming off clean catch and shoot situations from the top of the key, comparing it to the percentage of a guy who mostly shoots them off the dribble or coming off pindown screens and shooting on the move (like an Anthony Edward's, Steph Curry, etc.) Isn't exactly an even comparison. Curry for example is 45th, but that's due to the looks he gets. He's quite clearly the best pure shooter the game has ever seen, and in the game currently. Standstill top of the key 3s are one of if not the easiest look you can get.

[MoneyTalks41890]

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[Special_Puppy]

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Yeah it’s very close in terms of individual performance between SGA and Jokic, but team record and to a lesser extent voter fatigue has the MVP locked up for SGA baring a suprise

[MoneyTalks41890]

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Yeah it’s very close in terms of individual performance between SGA and Jokic, but team record and to a lesser extent voter fatigue has the MVP locked up for SGA baring a suprise

EPM changed pretty significantly in the last day, but I agree it’s very close.

[7seventynine9]

I find the line of argument over "empty" assists pretty weak. The 3-point argument is absurd. Is the next argument going to be he gets lots of rebounds because he is tall and stands near the basket?

No issue if you think SGA should get the MVP, but c'mon.

Are most of his 3s not standstill looks from the top of the key? How reliable is that in crunchtime in a deep playoffs series against a quality opponent, vs. being able to generate looks off the dribble?

This line of argument reminds me of when people used to say Shaq could only dunk. My take is unstoppable is unstoppable.

Most centers do not generate looks off the dribble. Most players do not make 44% of their 3s, especially on 4.4 shots per game. I don't know this for sure, but I am going to guess if Jokic ends the season anywhere around 44%, it will be the highest 3-point % by a center with at least 3 attempts per game. (Not sure what the minimum number of attempts is to be eligible for consideration for best % in the league.)

The fact Jokic is top 5 almost across the board is absolutely insane (reminder: ppg, rpg, apg, spg, 3pt %, double-doubles, and triple doubles) and I can't think of another player who has been able to do that regardless of position. Then add in he is likely to become only the 3rd player in history to average a triple-double in a single season. It's just one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA.

Channing Frye was at .439 on 4.8 attempts back in 2009-2010 (someone else may have been better, I only looked up KAT and Channing Frye), so Jokic will have to finish better than that in the least.

edit: And Al Horford in 2022/23. .446 on 5.2 attempts. I'm sure there are better since I only looked up a handful of guys.

[slick_watts]

can shai get back to 90% ft? he'll have to shoot 91.1% on his current volume the rest of the way. doable, but probably unlikely. if he does do it he'd be the 2nd player in history to score 30ppg and shoot 90% from the line more than once (steph curry is the other) in a season.

[SA37]

Are most of his 3s not standstill looks from the top of the key? How reliable is that in crunchtime in a deep playoffs series against a quality opponent, vs. being able to generate looks off the dribble?

This line of argument reminds me of when people used to say Shaq could only dunk. My take is unstoppable is unstoppable.

Most centers do not generate looks off the dribble. Most players do not make 44% of their 3s, especially on 4.4 shots per game. I don't know this for sure, but I am going to guess if Jokic ends the season anywhere around 44%, it will be the highest 3-point % by a center with at least 3 attempts per game. (Not sure what the minimum number of attempts is to be eligible for consideration for best % in the league.)

The fact Jokic is top 5 almost across the board is absolutely insane (reminder: ppg, rpg, apg, spg, 3pt %, double-doubles, and triple doubles) and I can't think of another player who has been able to do that regardless of position. Then add in he is likely to become only the 3rd player in history to average a triple-double in a single season. It's just one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA.

Channing Frye was at .439 on 4.8 attempts back in 2009-2010 (someone else may have been better, I only looked up KAT and Channing Frye), so Jokic will have to finish better than that in the least.

edit: And Al Horford in 2022/23. .446 on 5.2 attempts. I'm sure there are better since I only looked up a handful of guys.

I don't know how reliable this site is, but as things currently stand, Jokic's season would be tied for 3rd best by a center with Channing Frye. Only Mehmet Okur (2.8 attempts/game) and Al Horford have had better shooting seasons.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/highest-3-point-percentage-by-center-in-season

[Exp0sed]

This line of argument reminds me of when people used to say Shaq could only dunk. My take is unstoppable is unstoppable.

Most centers do not generate looks off the dribble. Most players do not make 44% of their 3s, especially on 4.4 shots per game. I don't know this for sure, but I am going to guess if Jokic ends the season anywhere around 44%, it will be the highest 3-point % by a center with at least 3 attempts per game. (Not sure what the minimum number of attempts is to be eligible for consideration for best % in the league.)

The fact Jokic is top 5 almost across the board is absolutely insane (reminder: ppg, rpg, apg, spg, 3pt %, double-doubles, and triple doubles) and I can't think of another player who has been able to do that regardless of position. Then add in he is likely to become only the 3rd player in history to average a triple-double in a single season. It's just one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA.

Channing Frye was at .439 on 4.8 attempts back in 2009-2010 (someone else may have been better, I only looked up KAT and Channing Frye), so Jokic will have to finish better than that in the least.

edit: And Al Horford in 2022/23. .446 on 5.2 attempts. I'm sure there are better since I only looked up a handful of guys.

I don't know how reliable this site is, but as things currently stand, Jokic's season would be tied for 3rd best by a center with Channing Frye. Only Mehmet Okur (2.8 attempts/game) and Al Horford have had better shooting seasons.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/highest-3-point-percentage-by-center-in-season

Jokic is leading the league this season in "heaves". he's got 17, Mikal Bridges is 2nd with 11 and Hali is 3rd with 8.
Jokic is 108/246 in 3p this season, he's taken 17 heaves and has made one. if we discount all of his heaves (including the one he made from full court) he'd be at 107/229 which is good for 46.7% from 3 on about 4 attempts, which would be indeed the highest ever for a Center.

[Woodsanity]

Channing Frye was at .439 on 4.8 attempts back in 2009-2010 (someone else may have been better, I only looked up KAT and Channing Frye), so Jokic will have to finish better than that in the least.

edit: And Al Horford in 2022/23. .446 on 5.2 attempts. I'm sure there are better since I only looked up a handful of guys.

I don't know how reliable this site is, but as things currently stand, Jokic's season would be tied for 3rd best by a center with Channing Frye. Only Mehmet Okur (2.8 attempts/game) and Al Horford have had better shooting seasons.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/highest-3-point-percentage-by-center-in-season

Jokic is leading the league this season in "heaves". he's got 17, Mikal Bridges is 2nd with 11 and Hali is 3rd with 8.
Jokic is 108/246 in 3p this season, he's taken 17 heaves and has made one. if we discount all of his heaves (including the one he made from full court) he'd be at 107/229 which is good for 46.7% from 3 on about 4 attempts, which would be indeed the highest ever for a Center.

Crazy how far ahead he is in heaves. Players care way to much about stats.
And some clowns really have the nerve to call Jokic a statpadder.

[Infinite Llamas]

Shai has 2 heaves….



…in his whole career.

[Infinite Llamas]

Anyways I expected Jokic to get a worse whistle lately.

It’s just simply that time of the year. I watched blood gushing down his arm during the C’s game and the man shot 0 free throws lol.

[kazyv]

Anyways I expected Jokic to get a worse whistle lately.

It’s just simply that time of the year. I watched blood gushing down his arm during the C’s game and the man shot 0 free throws lol.

jokic is out there wrestling 2-3 guys every possession, you have to appretiate the level of physicality he brings to the table. if someone ever told you that basketball isn't a physical sport, all you need to do is pull up the latest nuggets game highlights

jokic certainly is playing against a tougher kind of defense than just about anybody in the nba, whenever the refs deem it so

[Special_Puppy]

Anyways I expected Jokic to get a worse whistle lately.

It’s just simply that time of the year. I watched blood gushing down his arm during the C’s game and the man shot 0 free throws lol.

jokic is out there wrestling 2-3 guys every possession, you have to appretiate the level of physicality he brings to the table. if someone ever told you that basketball isn't a physical sport, all you need to do is pull up the latest nuggets game highlights

jokic certainly is playing against a tougher kind of defense than just about anybody in the nba, whenever the refs deem it so

The thing about Jokic’s officiating is that opponents get away with a lot fouls on him AND he himself gets away with committing fouls too. He’s just a hard player to officiate

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[kazyv]

Anyways I expected Jokic to get a worse whistle lately.

It’s just simply that time of the year. I watched blood gushing down his arm during the C’s game and the man shot 0 free throws lol.

jokic is out there wrestling 2-3 guys every possession, you have to appretiate the level of physicality he brings to the table. if someone ever told you that basketball isn't a physical sport, all you need to do is pull up the latest nuggets game highlights

jokic certainly is playing against a tougher kind of defense than just about anybody in the nba, whenever the refs deem it so

The thing about Jokic’s officiating is that opponents get away with a lot fouls on him AND he himself gets away with committing fouls too. He’s just a hard player to officiate

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meh, I don't see it. that's like saying you're a murderer if you kill in self defense. you can't expect him not to use physicality while he is being held down/pushed etc. but I'm sure he'd be fine being a finesse player if the game was called properly.

you have to remember who we're talking about here, a generational touch and IQ player that's playing against... well, let's just say lesser player. it's obvious who wants to increase physicality and get away with it

[Special_Puppy]

Where does SGA rank among All-Time Drivers?

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[DrModesty]

Anyways I expected Jokic to get a worse whistle lately.

It’s just simply that time of the year. I watched blood gushing down his arm during the C’s game and the man shot 0 free throws lol.

jokic is out there wrestling 2-3 guys every possession, you have to appretiate the level of physicality he brings to the table. if someone ever told you that basketball isn't a physical sport, all you need to do is pull up the latest nuggets game highlights

jokic certainly is playing against a tougher kind of defense than just about anybody in the nba, whenever the refs deem it so

The thing about Jokic’s officiating is that opponents get away with a lot fouls on him AND he himself gets away with committing fouls too. He’s just a hard player to officiate

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=kXz47zZ_dZNjyZ0pjPEBWQ

How relevant are those stats?

The first image is for the 20/21 season, and the second is 'since 2015', but looks like it is from the same source. Presumably that means 2015-2021. In fact, looking at the players listed in the second graphic, it seems pretty much certain that it is 2015-2021.

It would be interesting if we could see up to date versions of that stat.

[Jaqua92]

Anyways I expected Jokic to get a worse whistle lately.

It’s just simply that time of the year. I watched blood gushing down his arm during the C’s game and the man shot 0 free throws lol.

SGAs free throws have also gone up.

It's just not a coincidence

[Special_Puppy]

SGFTAs ducking demon Scoot

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[Jurassic_Park]

Okc resting everyone to get ready for denver on Sunday. They know what that game means for sga