RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[michaelm]

Jordan got those guys year 4. By year 7 they had won a title. LeBron stayed in Cleveland 7 years, so yes, LeBron would have stayed.

The thread has devolved down into fundamentally meaningless arguments about hypotheticals, started by a Jordan partisan in this case.

If I want to play though you can’t know whether Chicago could/would have built around young LeBron as they did around Jordan, whether Pippen would have become the player he did next to LeBron, whether LeBron would have acceded to the triangle offense etc. LeBron also lost elsewhere the 8th year with a strong team. On the other hand people say Jordan was close to looking elsewhere.

Some of my personal caveats on LeBron are currently being answered though. Reaves did develop next to him at the Lakers where he has stayed long enough for this to occur, and he is playing a less heliocentric game plan next to a player of Luka’s quality. Current moderately healthy Luka is however probably better than anyone Jordan played with including Pippen.

I'm not trying to make a hypothetical point here, rather responding to one that seems to mix up some basic facts. LeBron stayed in Cleveland seven years. He didn't just leave right out the gate. In the same amount of time Chicago found and developed some elite role players. In the same amount of time Cleveland completely failed to do so and did not appear to have any path forward.

The post I was responding to makes an unwarranted implication that the problem is that James didn't hang around long enough. If he was only more steadfast like Jordan, it would have turned out better in Cleveland.

The difference in the two situations is that Chicago built a championship caliber supporting cast in seven years and Cleveland wasn't even close to doing so.

Sure, fair enough he would likely have stayed.

The hypotheticals were mainly the other questions or parts thereof.

[lessthanjake]

I think the more you hear from MJ stans, the more you realize they came to their conclusions in 2011 and have not adjusted their arguments over the past 14 years.

On the flip side, I really think many of LeBron’s biggest “stans” weren’t actually old enough to have been paying attention to basketball in 2011 and earlier. They didn’t see the era of LeBron’s career where he almost always disappointed individually in the playoffs at some point.

At a cursory glance, LeBron’s playoff BPM was 9.8 from 2006 to 2011

That really masks that he was genuinely disappointing in most of the series his team lost (which is why I said “at some point”), including 2011 vs. DAL, 2010 vs. BOS, 2008 vs. BOS, and 2007 vs. SAS. The 2009 loss was definitely an exception, where his team lost but he was really not disappointing individually (2006 is somewhere in the middle, where he was not great against Detroit but not awful either, and it was early enough in his career that I wouldn’t say it was perceived as disappointing). Other than that, though, there were a lot of series losses where LeBron didn’t play well and definitely had a significant portion of the blame. Which made it different from what happened afterwards, where, for instance, one would be hard-pressed to really blame LeBron for his team losing in 2014, 2017, 2018, etc., given how he had played individually.

[DOT]

Using 2007 as a point against LeBron is just unhinged hater behavior lol

[lessthanjake]

Using 2007 as a point against LeBron is just unhinged hater behavior lol

I don’t think anyone really expects him to have been able to win the series. But he played badly individually, and the Cavs got swept. The idea that it wasn’t a disappointing individual performance is nonsense. I bet even LeBron himself would say it was.

[michaelm]

Using 2007 as a point against LeBron is just unhinged hater behavior lol

I don’t think anyone really expects him to have been able to win the series. But he played badly individually, and the Cavs got swept. The idea that it wasn’t a disappointing individual performance is nonsense. I bet even LeBron himself would say it was.

Imo any finals loss and probably any play-off loss subsequent to 2011 was not down to poor individual play by him, even in 2017 his individual play not only couldn’t be criticised, but was in fact rather stellar.

Despite him being imo the GOAT floor raiser, also imo the team construction and heliocentric offensive schemes of his teams put a ceiling on those teams, and he bears some responsibility even for the team construction. I do consider that the heliocentric scheme based on him was probably the best method for his teams though, and he seems to be currently demonstrating that he can operate differently next to another highly elite playmaker.

[HoopsterJones]

So uh, is it too early to add Nikola Jokic to the debate?

[Ainosterhaspie]

So uh, is it too early to add Nikola Jokic to the debate?

Yes. He has about six years of play worthy of a GOAT. The rest of the GOATS have at least double that. The top five guys were also immediately top level players where Jokic took about three years to get there. That really undercuts his case though it doesn't necessarily destroy it. Just makes his play on the back end of his career more important than it was for any of the other GOATS.

[Pelon chingon]

With Curry and Joker reaching higher peaks than him it's certainly a blemish on his all time rankings. I think we might see LBJ fall outside of the top 5 sooner than any of us imagined. Also we won't pretend the Kawhi thing didn't happen.

[levon]

LeBron's 5-year peak RAPM was 11.6, which I believe is highest in NBA history. Steph's highest was 9.8, Jokic's peak so far is 8.0 (this season).

[Ainosterhaspie]

It's a blemish that he faced and beat elite talent is certainly a ... take.

[Homer38]

With Curry and Joker reaching higher peaks than him it's certainly a blemish on his all time rankings. I think we might see LBJ fall outside of the top 5 sooner than any of us imagined. Also we won't pretend the Kawhi thing didn't happen.

LeBron won 4 MVP in 5 years at one point and he also make 9 finals in 10 years and winning 4 rings....So no, your memory is way too short

[ReggiesKnicks]

So uh, is it too early to add Nikola Jokic to the debate?

Yes. He has about six years of play worthy of a GOAT. The rest of the GOATS have at least double that. The top five guys were also immediately top level players where Jokic took about three years to get there. That really undercuts his case though it doesn't necessarily destroy it. Just makes his play on the back end of his career more important than it was for any of the other GOATS.

Huh, Jordan doesn't have 12 seasons. He has 8-10 (closer to 10 than 8).

[Ainosterhaspie]

So uh, is it too early to add Nikola Jokic to the debate?

Yes. He has about six years of play worthy of a GOAT. The rest of the GOATS have at least double that. The top five guys were also immediately top level players where Jokic took about three years to get there. That really undercuts his case though it doesn't necessarily destroy it. Just makes his play on the back end of his career more important than it was for any of the other GOATS.

Huh, Jordan doesn't have 12 seasons. He has 8-10 (closer to 10 than 8).

He has 11 all NBA seasons. In the 12th he had one of the most iconic playoff games of all time and in the 13th he lost to another all time great in the second round outscoring him by a significant margin in the series.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron's 5-year peak RAPM was 11.6, which I believe is highest in NBA history. Steph's highest was 9.8, Jokic's peak so far is 8.0 (this season).

Joker has the two highest single season PER’s in nba history. He is dominating like Wilt.

[Homer38]

LeBron's 5-year peak RAPM was 11.6, which I believe is highest in NBA history. Steph's highest was 9.8, Jokic's peak so far is 8.0 (this season).

Joker has the two highest single season PER’s in nba history. He is dominating like Wilt.

It was in response of the post 1008 of this page,who had started a thread about that Curry and Jokic had higher peak that LeBron and this is now on this page


Jokic has a all-time great peak but this is very hard to have a higher peak that LBJ whether it's 1 year, 3 years or 5 years, etc...Hard to beat the 2009 season of LeBron.Maybe Jokic has a argument but we can't said that for sure

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron's 5-year peak RAPM was 11.6, which I believe is highest in NBA history. Steph's highest was 9.8, Jokic's peak so far is 8.0 (this season).

Joker has the two highest single season PER’s in nba history. He is dominating like Wilt.

It was in response of the post 1008 of this page,who had started a thread about that Curry and Jokic had higher peak that LeBron and this is now on this page


Jokic has a all-time great peak but this is very hard to have a higher peak that LBJ whether it's 1 year, 3 years or 5 years, etc...Hard to beat the 2009 season of LeBron.Maybe Jokic has a argument but we can't said that for sure

Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Jokic, Bird along with James have a case for peak goat. Anybody saying otherwise is bias. Saying “player A” has the goat peak is just an option. Yea, i would say James had a higher peak than Curry and Jokic, but i think Jokic and the players i mentioned all have a case for peak goat.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron's 5-year peak RAPM was 11.6, which I believe is highest in NBA history. Steph's highest was 9.8, Jokic's peak so far is 8.0 (this season).

Joker has the two highest single season PER’s in nba history. He is dominating like Wilt.

It was in response of the post 1008 of this page,who had started a thread about that Curry and Jokic had higher peak that LeBron and this is now on this page


Jokic has a all-time great peak but this is very hard to have a higher peak that LBJ whether it's 1 year, 3 years or 5 years, etc...Hard to beat the 2009 season of LeBron.Maybe Jokic has a argument but we can't said that for sure

I meant opinion

[Homer38]

Joker has the two highest single season PER’s in nba history. He is dominating like Wilt.

It was in response of the post 1008 of this page,who had started a thread about that Curry and Jokic had higher peak that LeBron and this is now on this page


Jokic has a all-time great peak but this is very hard to have a higher peak that LBJ whether it's 1 year, 3 years or 5 years, etc...Hard to beat the 2009 season of LeBron.Maybe Jokic has a argument but we can't said that for sure

Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Jokic, Bird along with James have a case for peak goat. Anybody saying otherwise is bias. Saying “player A” has the goat peak is just an option. Yea, i would say James had a higher peak than Curry and Jokic, but i think Jokic and the players i mentioned all have a case for peak goat.

I agree with that

[levon]

Joker has the two highest single season PER’s in nba history. He is dominating like Wilt.

It was in response of the post 1008 of this page,who had started a thread about that Curry and Jokic had higher peak that LeBron and this is now on this page


Jokic has a all-time great peak but this is very hard to have a higher peak that LBJ whether it's 1 year, 3 years or 5 years, etc...Hard to beat the 2009 season of LeBron.Maybe Jokic has a argument but we can't said that for sure

I meant opinion

RAPM is an inherently better stat than PER, which is just box score accumulation. Read up on both. PER is one of the most useless aggregate stats and Hollinger is quite frankly a hack.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Yes. He has about six years of play worthy of a GOAT. The rest of the GOATS have at least double that. The top five guys were also immediately top level players where Jokic took about three years to get there. That really undercuts his case though it doesn't necessarily destroy it. Just makes his play on the back end of his career more important than it was for any of the other GOATS.

Huh, Jordan doesn't have 12 seasons. He has 8-10 (closer to 10 than 8).

He has 11 all NBA seasons. In the 12th he had one of the most iconic playoff games of all time and in the 13th he lost to another all time great in the second round outscoring him by a significant margin in the series.

I thought you meant GOAT level seasons, my bad.

Most of the GOAT's have between 6-10 GOAT level seasons.