LeBron lacking "portability" compared to Steph Curry

[cpower]

He cant be compared to Steph....compare him to like Desmond Bane!

[tsherkin]

Clogging up lanes wasn't a thing back then lol that was designed NBA offense. This whole shooting 3s thing wasn't a problem back then. Heat wasn't spacing the in the 2010 season either.

It definitely was a thing. Just because it wasn't talked about by fans doesn't mean much. Defenses planned accordingly.

Coaches and players all knew about it. Go watch the 4th quarter of Game 6 of 2013 finals with Wade off the floor and Wade on the floor. Miami would have won in regulation without the need of Allen's 3 if Wade provided some spacing.

From 07 to 12. 3PA was about 18 a game by a team. 3 point attempts started trending up since 13. 2010 though? Clogged up lanes was way more common than today NBA.

The three was used, but the understanding of what counted as spacing tended to orbit perimeter two-point shooting and baseline 15-footers, for sure. But even in the 80s, the Celtics were using DJ and Ainge, the Lakers were using B Scott (and later, Magic's own spacing effect as his jumper improved), etc. The Bulls used Paxson and Hodges, then Kerr. The Rockets used Horry, as did the three-peat Lakers. The Spurs did as well. The difference is that the shot was used more as an outlet, rather than as a primary weapon. And teams were still looking for other kinds of shots with more primacy.

Meantime, spacing isn't about volume. It's about threat. It's about what the potential of that kickout means, and how that affects defensive timing. And that's been somewhat timeless in the NBA, even prior to the introduction of the 3pt shot. And then you have to consider the period of time when the illegal defense rules required you to be at arm's length from your defensive check if you were in the paint, which opened things up for perimeter and post isolations before zone became an official thing in the NBA.

[EmpireFalls]

Most people think only in extremes. Lebron can be portable and still be much less portable than Curry...

Don’t you argue that he’s not portable at all?

[C3H6N6O6]

Clogging up lanes wasn't a thing back then lol that was designed NBA offense. This whole shooting 3s thing wasn't a problem back then. Heat wasn't spacing the in the 2010 season either.

It definitely was a thing. Just because it wasn't talked about by fans doesn't mean much. Defenses planned accordingly.

Coaches and players all knew about it. Go watch the 4th quarter of Game 6 of 2013 finals with Wade off the floor and Wade on the floor. Miami would have won in regulation without the need of Allen's 3 if Wade provided some spacing.

From 07 to 12. 3PA was about 18 a game by a team. 3 point attempts started trending up since 13. 2010 though? Clogged up lanes was way more common than today NBA.

Yes, and a guard whose slashing abilities were declining should have learned to shoot more 3s by 2013. Miami signed Mike Miller and Ray Allen to give spacing to the team. Teams knew that clogged lanes was a big problem on offense.

Wade had injury concerns for 4-5 years now. Wade was better than Dirk in 2011 finals but he was still not 2009 Wade and you could see the his knee was bothering him a lot by the time 2011 finals ended. He should have worked on his outside shooting from that off-season on and taken a lot more 3s.

[Black Jack]

Lmao... LeBron has always been more versatile than Curry. It was never even remotely close. And if you factor in defensive versatility - which Curry Cobblers never do + then cod jam cod jam, it's a landslide of epic proportions...

BS...Curry can be dropped/trade into any roster in the league and instantly improve everyone's advanced stats because he's the GOAT shooter that drives defenses insane with worry. he doesn't need the ball in his hands.

LeBron has been ball dominant his entire career. He is finally playing off ball more, it just took the #3 all time ppg player in his prime at 25 yrs old, and being 40 years old to convince him to do it. He can play off ball well but never trusted other players enough to do it.

I'm no LeBron hater but get real

[tsherkin]

LeBron has been ball dominant his entire career. He is finally playing off ball more, it just took the #3 all time ppg player in his prime at 25 yrs old, and being 40 years old to convince him to do it. He can play off ball well but never trusted other players enough to do it.

This isn't correct. He's had the makings of this off-ball game since at least 2007. And he began specifically refining it in Miami, in part due to the struggles of the 2011 postseason. For a decade, he's been showing reliable 3pt shooting, and he's always been savvy with off-ball cuts and such like. Luka had nothing to do with this. He's just playing on a team right now where we're seeing it even more, and because he doesn't have the overwhelming athleticism he did in his earlier days where it just made more sense to play him as almost wholly on-ball because that was a better option than anything else.

Don't confuse the situation.

[Homer38]

Lmao... LeBron has always been more versatile than Curry. It was never even remotely close. And if you factor in defensive versatility - which Curry Cobblers never do + then cod jam cod jam, it's a landslide of epic proportions...

BS...Curry can be dropped/trade into any roster in the league and instantly improve everyone's advanced stats because he's the GOAT shooter that drives defenses insane with worry. he doesn't need the ball in his hands.

LeBron has been ball dominant his entire career. He is finally playing off ball more, it just took the #3 all time ppg player in his prime at 25 yrs old, and being 40 years old to convince him to do it. He can play off ball well but never trusted other players enough to do it.

I'm no LeBron hater but get real

He was playing off ball more and he was very good at that in the last 3 years in Miami...Even with Westbrook he was playing off ball more and he was very good at that....The problem in this situation,Westbrook was so bad as scorer at that point,this is why the lakers record was bad

[tsherkin]

I think the whole "portability" conversation is somewhat moot. I think it's more relevant the less dominant you are, to be honest. If you're good enough, teams build around you and things work. We've seen that well enough. If you're not, then it becomes more of an issue. And I think people are so entrenched in their opinions about Lebron that it's hard for them to see what's different now compared to when they first began watching him 20 years ago, which influences this discussion quite a lot.

[Black Jack]

Lmao... LeBron has always been more versatile than Curry. It was never even remotely close. And if you factor in defensive versatility - which Curry Cobblers never do + then cod jam cod jam, it's a landslide of epic proportions...

BS...Curry can be dropped/trade into any roster in the league and instantly improve everyone's advanced stats because he's the GOAT shooter that drives defenses insane with worry. he doesn't need the ball in his hands.

LeBron has been ball dominant his entire career. He is finally playing off ball more, it just took the #3 all time ppg player in his prime at 25 yrs old, and being 40 years old to convince him to do it. He can play off ball well but never trusted other players enough to do it.

I'm no LeBron hater but get real

He was playing off ball more and he was very good at that in the last 3 years in Miami...Even with Westbrook he was playing off ball more and he was very good at that....The problem in this situation,Westbrook was so bad as scorer at that point,this is why the lakers record was bad

I agree LeBron is GOOD at playing off ball but he's been ball dominant and the primary ball handler. In Miami they had Wade and Rafer etc. LeBron has always played a hybrid role but you can see him when things went south, demanding the ball and taking over. This is the first time he's had a guy he knows is clearly in prime and more reliable as a ball handler than him creating offense. My 2 cents.

Kyrie was in prime and good at creation but LeBron again was bringing the ball up a lot and playmaking in his second Cleveland run.

[PostGameDaVinci]

Lmao... LeBron has always been more versatile than Curry. It was never even remotely close. And if you factor in defensive versatility - which Curry Cobblers never do + then cod jam cod jam, it's a landslide of epic proportions...

BS...Curry can be dropped/trade into any roster in the league and instantly improve everyone's advanced stats because he's the GOAT shooter that drives defenses insane with worry. he doesn't need the ball in his hands.

LeBron has been ball dominant his entire career. He is finally playing off ball more, it just took the #3 all time ppg player in his prime at 25 yrs old, and being 40 years old to convince him to do it. He can play off ball well but never trusted other players enough to do it.

I'm no LeBron hater but get real

People talk about Steph not needing the ball in his hands but forget that then you actually need players to get him the ball, which limits his versatility. If you don't have another primary playmaker and a bunch of high IQ role players who can make quick decisions, then you're not getting the same Steph. That's why Draymond is so essential for the Warriors offense.

You always want the ball in your best player's hands when it's winning time. Being able to create openings for your teammates AND make the timely pass will always be better than "gravity".

[levon]

Now that LeBron can shoot, he's got no weaknesses as an offball player. Everyone talking about Steph coming off screens as if the entire offense isn't designed to pin Steph's defender to the floor. Just because Steph is offball doesn't mean the offense isn't heliocentric. Like the gravity is great, but this other guy has downhill and vertical gravity. Oh and he's far more defensively versatile.

You want LeBron to be a scorer? Easy. Point guard? Yup. Fronting Jokic and gobbling up boards? Switch defender onto POA? Screener and short roller? All possible with LeBron.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

It definitely was a thing. Just because it wasn't talked about by fans doesn't mean much. Defenses planned accordingly.

Coaches and players all knew about it. Go watch the 4th quarter of Game 6 of 2013 finals with Wade off the floor and Wade on the floor. Miami would have won in regulation without the need of Allen's 3 if Wade provided some spacing.

From 07 to 12. 3PA was about 18 a game by a team. 3 point attempts started trending up since 13. 2010 though? Clogged up lanes was way more common than today NBA.

The three was used, but the understanding of what counted as spacing tended to orbit perimeter two-point shooting and baseline 15-footers, for sure. But even in the 80s, the Celtics were using DJ and Ainge, the Lakers were using B Scott (and later, Magic's own spacing effect as his jumper improved), etc. The Bulls used Paxson and Hodges, then Kerr. The Rockets used Horry, as did the three-peat Lakers. The Spurs did as well. The difference is that the shot was used more as an outlet, rather than as a primary weapon. And teams were still looking for other kinds of shots with more primacy.

Meantime, spacing isn't about volume. It's about threat. It's about what the potential of that kickout means, and how that affects defensive timing. And that's been somewhat timeless in the NBA, even prior to the introduction of the 3pt shot. And then you have to consider the period of time when the illegal defense rules required you to be at arm's length from your defensive check if you were in the paint, which opened things up for perimeter and post isolations before zone became an official thing in the NBA.

Great point there. Lakers use to call spacing Pau Gasol passing from the free throw line. Think the concept of spacing has evolved .

[The Master]

LeBron has been ball dominant his entire career.

Not really, it's always been soooo overblown.

LeBron has 39% FGs assisted in his whole career (+40% since Miami years) - 27.1 PPG.

Harden - 28% (24.0 PPG)
Doncic - 21% (28.5 PPG)
Kobe - 42% (25.0 PPG)
Steph - 49% (24.7 PPG)
KD - 55% (27.2 PPG)
Wade - 34% (22.0 PPG)
CP3 - 21% (17.1 PPG)
Westbrook - 27% (21.3 PPG)
Nash - 27% (14.3 PPG)
Shai - 25% (24.2 PPG)

Obviously, LeBron has been playing mostly on ball, because ... he's one of the greatest playmakers ever, but as a scorer he's always been a tier or two better as an offball scorer in comparison to other perimeter stars, because he's elite in transition, decent in spot up 3s in majority of seasons, great as a screener, willing cutter and he can punish mismatches in the paint - and that's the skillset most of these ball-dominant guards do not possess: for example, CP3 is a great 3pt shooter, but besides that he's none of these things, same with Nash or Harden - you just can't put them in spots that you can deploy LeBron.

So LeBron has been ball dominant - in this sense that he plays mostly on ball, but as an offball scorer among these top tier perimeter players of this era you can put only Curry and KD ahead in terms of offball scoring (I am probably missing someone). That's why these 'portability' discussions are a bit semantic/theoretical - first, in real life, rarely you are in situation that you have talent good enough to play LeBron Raymone James Senior more offball, second, like above - LeBron has always been an underrated offball scorer, that's why he had no issues to adjust to volume scorers who were talented offball scorers (Kyrie, AD) as well.

[tsherkin]

Great point there. Lakers use to call spacing Pau Gasol passing from the free throw line. Think the concept of spacing has evolved .

The triangle, with correct personnel, was all about spacing. The whole root concept was about a guy in the corner, a guy in the post and a guy above the break to make it a pain in the ass to double down on the post guy, and then you couldn't double the same way from the weakside as you can now. And once they got Horry, it REALLY opened things up by taking another large defender out of the equation. 08 and on, Gasol had 20-foot range and passing ability, so he was able to run all that Princeton stuff which Adelman loved so much. And he fit gloriously into the triangle concept, because he was always looking to screen, move the ball or make a quick move to score. And you could still also PnR and use him as a roll/lob/pop threat. In-era, it was relatively effective. LA had good offenses, particularly in 08 and 09 when they had strong 3pt shooting with Kobe and Gasol.

[Snakebites]

I mean, there's degrees of portability right?

If Steph and Luka played together the (offensive) fit would be pretty seamless. Neither player would really need to adapt too much.

But yes, Lebron is more portable than people give credit.

[GQ Hot Dog]

It's hilarious that Curry has taken up permanent residence in Lebronistans collective heads.

If you fools need to constantly find new reasons to claim Lebron is better than Curry, it's because you're not succeeding in your own minds.

[Saints14]

Steph is probably the most “portable” superstar ever but at this level it doesn’t matter to me - if you’re good enough to be a 1A option on a championship contender who cares if you’re a suboptimal 2nd option on some hypothetical ATG all-star team

[Mazter]

So Curry has completed 15 seasons in his career. 7 of them were with the core of Kerr/Curry/Thompson/Green/Iguodala played. They went to 6 finals in those 7 seasons accumulating a 23-3 series record.

In the 8 other seasons he missed the play offs 6 times and made it past the first round only once for a 1-2 record.

Lebron accumulated an 34-6 record in his 10 Finals campaign with the following:
Brown/Lebron/Hughes/Ilgauskas/Pavlovic
Spoelstra/LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Chalmers 4x
Blatt/LeBron/Irving/Shumpert/T.Thompson
Lue/LeBron/Irving/Love/T.Thompson 2x
Lue/LeBron/Love/Smith/Hill
Vogel/LeBron/Davis/KCP/Green

So what portability are we actually talking about?

[Luke]

It's hilarious that Curry has taken up permanent residence in Lebronistans collective heads.

If you fools need to constantly find new reasons to claim Lebron is better than Curry, it's because you're not succeeding in your own minds.

It's because they have to justify the robbery of last summer , when they gifted lebron the Olympic MVP, ( Steph was so much superior than him it wasn't funny ). Now they have to find something.... anything, to prove that the king is better than Curry in everything...
One of their worst nightmares would be Steph winning his 5th

[Doctor MJ]

Him accommodating Luka and flourishing should finally put that argument to bed.

On-ball, off-ball, LeBron have it all. His first year with Wade was always an exception, cause he didn't want to step on Wade's toe.

Hmm. So first I'll say that when a player proves he can play differently than he showed in the past, then yes, our assessment of something like portability, or like versatility for that matter, changes. Good on that guy, but it's not like we should just assume that everyone can do it before they do it.

However the fact that so many of the concerns pertaining to portability are based on us being able to see the sample we'd need for evidence relates to why I'm always cautious about saying Player A is definitively more portable than Player B. We never have complete certainty. The ground truth here is simply that you can't just put a bunch of redundant guys on the court and expect them to "figure it out".

Of course if your position is "Sure, but super-high BBIQ guys can figure it out", that makes sense.

Now as I say all of that, let's just remember that not only is it a small sample size so far, but that sample size is not pointing to an elite Laker offense, but rather an elite Laker defense.

If we go on b-r and look for team ORtg's over the past month, here's the gist:

ORtg
1. Oklahoma City 127.1
2. Cleveland 125.4
3. Boston 123.4
4. Denver 122.9
5. Golden State 121.2
...
12. Lakers 116.7
15-16. League Median 115.9

So in this time frame the Lakers are a +0.8 offense relative to league median while - for example - the Thunder are +11.2. I don't think it makes a lot of sense for players on the caliber of LeBron & Luka to take a victory lap for leading an offense that's only a bit above average.

DRtg
1. Detroit 108.4
2. Lakers 108.8
3. Cleveland 109.7
4. Milwaukee 110.3
5. Golden State 110.9
...
15-16. League Median 115.1

So Lakers with a -6.3 defense relative to league median, which is elite.

None of this is intended to be a doom & gloom prediction about LeBron/Luka. At this point I definitely see the Lakers as one of the 5 top contenders in the league right now, and they didn't even get to really retool after trading away AD. They might win the title this year, and they might be considerably better this year.

But I think the "holy smokes" surprise isn't about the LeBron/Luka offense, but about how amazing the Laker defense has been. If that defense can hold up in the playoffs, and the LeBron/Luka offense proves extremely resilient to tough playoff defense, that's how the Lakers could win the chip.