2024-2025 Regular Season Game 64: Chicago Bulls (24-38) at Orlando Magic (29-34) - 7pm

[Jaxfann]

The answer is multi-layered, but one of the layers probably isn’t one you really want to hear.

I am accepting of all reasonable explanations

For all intents and purposes, Suggs went out for the season on January 3 (I know he came back for 13 minutes of one additional game) and Paolo returned for the season on January 10. Pretty much right on top of each other.

You do the math.

For as talented as he can be individually on offense, Paolo is equally lazy and disinterested in giving any sort of consistent effort as a defender and as a rebounder.

And without Suggs’ maniacal effort and energy level on the floor as a counterbalance, the rest of the team has taken on the personality of who they consider to be their best player which is Paolo.

Even Franz, who is very obviously a better all-around player that Paolo, has on the record stated that Paolo is the alpha dog of the team. Everyone considers him to be the guy whether he actually is or not.

Now…

This isn’t to say things are *entirely* on Mosley or Paolo because they’re obviously not.

Weltman built a roster that is simply not good enough from a shooting and playmaking perspective - and included in that are Paolo and Franz’s own limitations as both shooters and facilitators - to overcome such an obvious downturn on defense, on the glass, and purely when it comes to energy and effort.

To summarize…

1. The roster construction overall combined with the decision to put all the scoring *and* playmaking into two forward’s hands almost assures a difficult to consistently succeed offense. Mosley’s own shortcomings and limitations as an offensive coach also play a factor here.

2. The defense, rebounding and effort have to be elite to overcome the first point. If you don’t have a good offense, but still want to win, you need to be a really high end team in other facets of the game. The Magic were that last year and over the first 30ish games of this year.

3. Paolo doesn’t provide consistently good enough effort on defense or on the glass. And I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he’s generally speaking a low effort player as well when it comes to anything that is not trying to score the basketball.

4. Without Suggs, the rest of the team has followed Paolo’s lead instead of Suggs’ lead on defense and from an energy perspective and we’ve seen a noticeable downtick in those areas. Combine those downticks with an already hard to succeed offense due to Weltman’s failures and that leads to the miserable play we’ve seen for pretty much the last two months.

Totally agree with this excellent analysis.

[3ddman23]

Sacramento Kings of the east...

This is coming from a Raptors fan but not even close.

1. Short term your season was a let down but long term the injury of Paolo earlier that made Franz have to step up was likely a blessing in disguise.

2. I'd take Paolo and especially Franz over Fox (who's a small guard) and Sabonis (who doesn't have a good track record in the post season)

I have no idea on the moves to make, but just having Franz gives you an edge.

Your guys biggest issue imo is while all 3 of Suggs, Paolo and Franz are great in their own right, all 3 of them shoot 30% from 3 and take over 50% of the 3 point shots.

If either Franz or Paolo get a three point shot (Franz was a 35% three point shooter his first 2 years) then you truly got something), still, not a bad spot to be in long term.

I'm talking about more long term over the years between both organizations. Not necessarily now. 2 smaller market largely irrelevant organization in the NBA. On opposite coast. Sister organizations.

[Rainwater]

Sacramento Kings of the east...

This is coming from a Raptors fan but not even close.

1. Short term your season was a let down but long term the injury of Paolo earlier that made Franz have to step up was likely a blessing in disguise.

2. I'd take Paolo and especially Franz over Fox (who's a small guard) and Sabonis (who doesn't have a good track record in the post season)

I have no idea on the moves to make, but just having Franz gives you an edge.

Your guys biggest issue imo is while all 3 of Suggs, Paolo and Franz are great in their own right, all 3 of them shoot 30% from 3 and take over 50% of the 3 point shots.

If either Franz or Paolo get a three point shot (Franz was a 35% three point shooter his first 2 years) then you truly got something), still, not a bad spot to be in long term.

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

[eyriq]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

[Vampirate]

Sacramento Kings of the east...

This is coming from a Raptors fan but not even close.

1. Short term your season was a let down but long term the injury of Paolo earlier that made Franz have to step up was likely a blessing in disguise.

2. I'd take Paolo and especially Franz over Fox (who's a small guard) and Sabonis (who doesn't have a good track record in the post season)

I have no idea on the moves to make, but just having Franz gives you an edge.

Your guys biggest issue imo is while all 3 of Suggs, Paolo and Franz are great in their own right, all 3 of them shoot 30% from 3 and take over 50% of the 3 point shots.

If either Franz or Paolo get a three point shot (Franz was a 35% three point shooter his first 2 years) then you truly got something), still, not a bad spot to be in long term.

I'm talking about more long term over the years between both organizations. Not necessarily now. 2 smaller market largely irrelevant organization in the NBA. On opposite coast. Sister organizations.

If we're talking the last 15 or so years, the closest thing to the kings are the Wizards most likely. Bulls a close 2nd, the Jordan years puts them ahead, but recently well yeah.

In the end your team goes as far as your best players can get them. Take it from a fan perspective of someone who went through the Lebronto era, things and fortunes can change very fast. Chin up bro.

Being honest, I don't know if Paolo is a Championship #1 option (he's a #1 option, but how far, I don't know, the inefficiency is not good despite the FT rate he has)

Paolo of course can get there, but *shrugs* if he will.

Franz on the other hand is awesome and is Imo a championship #2 and has maybe another gear to get to a 1B is his 3 point shot returns.

Keep in mind the Cavs we're not long ago looking bleak with short playoff exits and Mitchell's impending FA, but look at them this year.

Bottom line, you guys will be fine imo.

Suggs feels like he's OG but more outgoing.

[BadMofoPimp]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

But, but, but, what have they done for me lately!!!

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

Paolo is going through a rough year with a **** team.
Mosley is a 50/50 right now because he's lost this teams trust and confidence
Bolded part has been proven

[Knightro]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

Do you like going 3-7 at home with Paolo and Franz healthy and with several of those losses to teams with worse records who are actively trying to lose?

[RichCollab]

Season of Sorrows!

[three3d]

I’m rooting for losses the rest of the way this season. I want the heat to be so high on the DeVos’s to do something they have no choice but to do it.

And also I don’t want them to capitalize one bit off being able to raise ticket prices for Playoffs. They abandoned the team and allowed front office to stay cheap at the trade deadline. The owners deserve to feel the same frustration fans do, and the only way that happens is if they are losing out on more money.

[KillMonger]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

i'm telling you man, i think they just need to get it out of their system.....i mean i remember the dwayne bacon and chasson randle days....the devyn marble days....and people complain more now than they did then

[three3d]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

i'm telling you man, i think they just need to get it out of their system.....i mean i remember the dwayne bacon and chasson randle days....the devyn marble days....and people complain more now than they did then

Rightfully so there was expectations this season.

[eyriq]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

Do you like going 3-7 at home with Paolo and Franz healthy and with several of those losses to teams with worse records who are actively trying to lose?

Recent performance has been inexcusable, no doubt. Avoidable losses. A series of unfortunate events. We deserve to feel frustrated and sad. I've been relatively petty during games. I just don't think we should over index on recent performance due to overall special causes that we know are affecting the team.

[Skybox]

Weltman’s burner

Weltman drafted Paolo, Franz, and Suggs, hired Mosley, and has stuck to his guns on organic development. I love those decisions.

The combination of those decisions has led to +12 and +13 win seasons and a top three defense.

This year there's been a major setback due to injuries. Injuries are the root cause, there's no other way around that. We're second in the NBA in terms of wins lost due to injury, and that doesn't take into account the reduced quality of play as injured players return from injury, or the chemistry setbacks that occur due to in-season discontinuity.

I wanted him to stay dedicated to the organic growth path and develop Anthony Black. Anthony Black is in the top three in minutes played, I couldn't be happier with the opportunities he's gotten.

Losing doesn't feel good, I'm as angry about it as anyone really. But if I'm honest with myself these results are from Weltman doing things I agree with.

Does he need to retool his plan? Yes absolutely. I don't agree with many of the moves he's made at the margins. I'm on the record on those points. I just don't think they mean much in the big picture. I think hiring the right coach and drafting our franchise players and building out our core is more important than identifying role players at this stage.

You listed a small handful of moves...you even left out drafting TdS - which might have been his best, although many had him mocked to go higher- but still, kudos.

His extension to Isaac I can live with, although he's disappointed this year (like nearly EVERYONE has-that can't be a coincidence, sorry Mose). The premature, unnecessary, and, ultimately terrible extension given to WCJ is awful. His clinging to and extending Fultz was awful. You have to admit that both AB & Jett were not solid picks, especially so high in the draft. At least one of those picks should have been moved for a player ready to contribute...but the biggest blunder, by a long way, that he made was all of the moves he DIDN't make to build a compatible roster and to plug obvious holes in the team's skill palette. It's even compounded by the fact that, after losing Moe so early and for such a clear duration, well into next season, he didn't act to replace that amount of bench scoring immediately. Then, add in the fact that their best offensive-minded assistant coach left for a WNBA gig and Mose didn't get a replacement when he so obviously could use some veteran guidance on the offensive end. There's way too much, particularly the missed shots he didn't take, that I would consider worthy of a complete loss of the org's trust and the fans' faith.

[Audi]

The answer is multi-layered, but one of the layers probably isn’t one you really want to hear.

I am accepting of all reasonable explanations

For all intents and purposes, Suggs went out for the season on January 3 (I know he came back for 13 minutes of one additional game) and Paolo returned for the season on January 10. Pretty much right on top of each other.

You do the math.

For as talented as he can be individually on offense, Paolo is equally lazy and disinterested in giving any sort of consistent effort as a defender and as a rebounder.

And without Suggs’ maniacal effort and energy level on the floor as a counterbalance, the rest of the team has taken on the personality of who they consider to be their best player which is Paolo.

Even Franz, who is very obviously a better all-around player that Paolo, has on the record stated that Paolo is the alpha dog of the team. Everyone considers him to be the guy whether he actually is or not.

Now…

This isn’t to say things are *entirely* on Mosley or Paolo because they’re obviously not.

Weltman built a roster that is simply not good enough from a shooting and playmaking perspective - and included in that are Paolo and Franz’s own limitations as both shooters and facilitators - to overcome such an obvious downturn on defense, on the glass, and purely when it comes to energy and effort.

To summarize…

1. The roster construction overall combined with the decision to put all the scoring *and* playmaking into two forward’s hands almost assures a difficult to consistently succeed offense. Mosley’s own shortcomings and limitations as an offensive coach also play a factor here.

2. The defense, rebounding and effort have to be elite to overcome the first point. If you don’t have a good offense, but still want to win, you need to be a really high end team in other facets of the game. The Magic were that last year and over the first 30ish games of this year.

3. Paolo doesn’t provide consistently good enough effort on defense or on the glass. And I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he’s generally speaking a low effort player as well when it comes to anything that is not trying to score the basketball.

4. Without Suggs, the rest of the team has followed Paolo’s lead instead of Suggs’ lead on defense and from an energy perspective and we’ve seen a noticeable downtick in those areas. Combine those downticks with an already hard to succeed offense due to Weltman’s failures and that leads to the miserable play we’ve seen for pretty much the last two months.

I think Paolo not having sustained, consistent effort as a rebounder and defender has much less to do with some character/player flaw and far more to do with the fact that he’s being asked to be a 6’10 PG offensive hub AND orchestrator with a game already predicated on physicality who consistently faces double and triple teams making all of it that much harder - and despite asking for something different two trade deadlines ago, he was met with only a *sniff* *sniff*.

You kind of already said it, but I think the causation is less “inherently Paolo” and more “Weltman’s failures”. I’m definitely one of those high on the idea that a true offensive maestro who can shoot is what would unlock Paolo (and probably another level to Franz as well), freeing both of them up to grab more boards and let him focus more on the other side of the floor.

He’s 22. He’s not prime Lebron. I feel like some of us need the reminder (not saying you in particular).

[Skybox]

I love this post, the future is still very bright. I wish people still understood that.

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

But, but, but, what have they done for me lately!!!

Are you suggesting they get a pass because of what, drafting Dwight over Okafor? Or the Penny trade?

but, but, they're falling apart before our eyes and the FO has done nothing to prop them up despite creating two straight years of fantastic opportunity...cap space, picks, etc. I don't know how any knowledgeable fan can feel anything but looking for heads to roll.

[Furinkazan]

typical Carter always has to grab it and then jump once more like he coudnt fkn tip it ... playing against gnomes and sht...

[JoshuaPotter]

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

But, but, but, what have they done for me lately!!!

Are you suggesting they get a pass because of what, drafting Dwight over Okafor? Or the Penny trade?

but, but, they're falling apart before our eyes and the FO has done nothing to prop them up despite creating two straight years of fantastic opportunity...cap space, picks, etc. I don't know how any knowledgeable fan can feel anything but looking for heads to roll.

I mean the fans do directly contribute to the bottom line. So on paper, yes, what has the org done for us lately?

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Imagine how gloomy it must be for fans that think last year was an anomaly, Paolo is a one-dimensional cancer, Mosley is a one-trick cheerleader, and Weltman is a conservative one playbook buffoon.

i'm telling you man, i think they just need to get it out of their system.....i mean i remember the dwayne bacon and chasson randle days....the devyn marble days....and people complain more now than they did then

Rightfully so there was expectations this season.

Baffling that statement remember the Bacon and Randle days. Yeah we were tanking rofl. The knee pads have to be worn out by now

[KillMonger]

i'm telling you man, i think they just need to get it out of their system.....i mean i remember the dwayne bacon and chasson randle days....the devyn marble days....and people complain more now than they did then

Rightfully so there was expectations this season.

Baffling that statement remember the Bacon and Randle days. Yeah we were tanking rofl. The knee pads have to be worn out by now

ok man whatever