Knicks Clippers PG: Never again

[Jalen Bluntson]

(btw to add a little context to this Randle bs: of this mentioned 9-0 stretch they are with him, only one(!) team that they played is currently above .500)

Wrong thread brother. Fck Randle. We don't discuss him here. He's garbage.

[prophet_of_rage]

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Why is KAT playing so much on that knee?
Why does Thibs continue to start Hart and burn him out, when his fit is better on the bench (or at least worth a try?)
Injuries piling up and no changes, unless you count Deuce being a PG now, a starting one.
No development of Kolek when we can’t score.

Thibs is choosing not to continue as coach.

At this point I just choose to watch the 10 minute condensed games.

Who replaces Hart in the lineup? Deuce is already the PG. Payne or Shamet?

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[god shammgod]

wanting to switch everything on defense is the funniest plan on here. because when teams play us they actively try to get the switch so they can get kat or brunson against someone out of position. "hey celtics, don't bother trying to get jason tatum isolated against karl anthony towns, we're gonna do it for you."

[NoDopeOnSundays]

p.s. josh hart, who i really like a lot, loses the ability and desire to shoot jumpers for half a season just about every year of his career. no coach has been able to fix that.

So, don't play the guy in the last seconds of a game if he's not going to shoot, this isn't string theory.

Why even have a coach, if nothing is his fault, then nothing positive should be attributed to him either.

i guess because he's the guy who will most likely get the rebound if you miss. and at least you know he's gonna play with max effort.

there are legit complaints about thibs. the minutes for guys without a doubt. but some of this stuff is beyond his control.

I like Hart, when he's hitting threes he's the perfect role player, but having him on the floor for a last second shot when he's in a shooting slump is just inexcusable.


I don't think the roster is perfect, they're going to need to make some moves in the offseason, but what I see from our offense and how rudimentary it is, how late into the shot clock we go, how little threes we take, all of these things are staples of his coaching. The newest weakness is that he has no answer for when a team puts a big on Hart and a wing on KAT, I'm certain we'll see the Blazers do it with Kamara on KAT and Clingan on Hart, and we'll struggle against them as well.

It's been 5 years, there are multiple rosters having the same issues under him, 2022-2023 we were 27th in opponents made threes, because the corners being open is just what his defense gives up. It was blamed on the players then, we have only had 1 top 5 defense his entire time here, and almost always give up high percentage threes, lot of makes or a lot of attempts.

Changing coaches AND addressing the roster needs to be done this summer.

[3toheadmelo]

Randle - 52 games played, 31-21 (.596) +114 (+237 in wins) -.02 on/off
Kat - 56 games played, 37-19 (.660) +286 (+510 in wins) +5.61 on/off

knicks are only +.82 net rating when Kat isn't on the floor compared to +6.43 when he's on.
meanwhile wolves are +3.60 when randle isn't on the floor and +3.58 when he is.

And yet the Timberwolves are undefeated in their last 9 games with Randle. How come they weren't winning games without him? Couldn't even beat Utah

And KAT is literally the worst defensive big man in the league. He literally makes Randle look like AD on defense. Sad

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

wolves are 5-8 without randle with 4 of those losses being by 2 points or less. wins of +19, +13, +16, +15 and +3. wins against OKC twice, HOU and POR.

knicks are 3-4 without Kat, losses by 9, 9, 17 and 12. wins of +2, +6 and +6 against 2 of the worst teams in the league nets and philly 2x.

anyways who cares. the wolves are good with or without randle. we are seemingly mid with Kat and horrible without him.

you're trying to argue that the timberwolves are good without randle yet they went 5-8? The math ain't mathing. They couldn't even beat the Kings, Utah, Wizards without him. The fact of the matter is that they have a winning record with him and a losing record without him.

I never said the Knicks are better without KAT. But we're def worse with him this year than we were last year. Last year we were able to beat the top contenders, this year we're 0-9 against the top 3 seeds of each conference. We took a major downgrade defensively with him as well. The whole point of acquiring KAT was to unleash this mystical "5 out offense" to unlock our team's true potential but the reality is that his defense is so horrible it outweighs any impact he has on offense against the top contenders. And he's only averaging 16 PPG against those teams because his bag is so limited, meanwhile Randle is averaging 19.4 PPG 4.9 APG with a +25 against those teams.

And on top of this which you wouldn't address. No team is winning a chip with this type of defense. Sorry.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

[/quote]


Hit me up in the other thread if you wanna talk about this more

[3toheadmelo]

It’s a poorly put together roster. Too many bad defenders, not enough shooting, not enough playmakers, multiple guys playing out of position. It was obvious before the season started this wasn’t going to be what people expected. But y’all never listen. Even worse you respond belligerently. What can you do. I’m pretty sick of trying to talk sense around here. I guess I’ll have to continue to just hate you all.

They come at us hastily when we try to talk sense into them

It's going to be hilarious when we fire Thibs and we're still mid.

kat is almost 30, he's had multiple coaches, none of them could get him to anchor a defense. it's not possible. that should have been obvious before this year started.

mikal is a role player. he's had multiple coaches. he was able to look like a real offensive option for less than half a season in his career. that was the only time he ever averaged above 20 points in his career. the very next year instead of staying aggressive he gave up his number 1 spot on offense to a hungry little chucking munchkin who had more heart than him.

so what the f*ck does any of this have to do with coaching.

It has nothing to do with coaching. It's just that people don't want to admit they were wrong about this roster. They think our roster is like the 2018 warriors or something

[prophet_of_rage]

Where were all the dudes talking about how selfish Brunson was?

He still is.

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[8516knicks]

i’m not gonna lie… i might even take rj over mikal right now..

They are more similar than I have enjoyed watching now that you mention it lol. Divo was the anti-RJ/Mikal

It made way more sense to run it back with Randle and Donte and use some assets to get a C instead of wasting all of them on KAT and Mikal.

I'd have preferred that option but perhaps getting KAT was to appease all the STAR f*ckers as Giannis was not available?

To be fair, KAT made the AS team as Randle did the previous year. So not like he's a zero. But iike Mitch he seems always injured. And Mikal, in the right situation is a fine 4th option with good D in crucial times as we have seen. But Thibs...

YET we NEED 3pt shooters who can get their own shot like DDV. And anyone better would have been a star themselves, like a Booker, and that would be out of our price range/or getable range; 5 trashy late first round picks would not do it).

[prophet_of_rage]

Not having Brunson exposes how nobody else can get their own shot or run an offense. This is another way the team misses Randle, it did not look pretty but his gravity and passing would be a huge help.

This roster was not that balanced and deep, everything was squeezed out of them to get to that 40-20 record

Correct. We have no way of changing. Everybody just does the same thing.

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[3toheadmelo]

wanting to switch everything on defense is the funniest plan on here. because when teams play us they actively try to get the switch so they can get kat or brunson against someone out of position. "hey celtics, don't bother trying to get jason tatum isolated against karl anthony towns, were gonna do it for you."

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

[Jalen Bluntson]

The nay sayers will rejoice now that we are going to struggle to be better than last year. Losing Brunson is going to hurt. We need to go 10-9 just to match last year and we will not have Brunson for all or most of those games. Thibs isn't coaching around the loss of Brunson with his 6 man rotations. The wheels are going to fall off AGAIN as we get to the post season and he rides 7-8 guys into the ground. More injuries are incoming. They are already here actually.

[prophet_of_rage]

Good thing the Knicks were without the selfish Jalen Brunson. Offense runs like a well oiled machine without his toxic me first play!

Knicks fans been complaining about iso since the Melo and Ewing days. They want a team of scrappy Tyler Koleks and Franks passing the ball around the perimeter for infinity!

And they have it!

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[Iron Mantis]

since you love plus minus, Randle is only positive in 4 of those games.

Since you love winning records, they’re 9-0.

Both of you can have this discussion in another thread.

Thank you.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Good thing the Knicks were without the selfish Jalen Brunson. Offense runs like a well oiled machine without his toxic me first play!

Knicks fans been complaining about iso since the Melo and Ewing days. They want a team of scrappy Tyler Koleks and Franks passing the ball around the perimeter for infinity!

And they have it!

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No. We just like selfish ball hogs like Brunson. That's all we want to see. A guy 7th in the league in scoring and 8th in assists. He's the selfish type of player we need. Too bad he doesn't spin dribble into triple teams and make bail out passes and turnovers to ruin his efficiency.

[spree8]

wanting to switch everything on defense is the funniest plan on here. because when teams play us they actively try to get the switch so they can get kat or brunson against someone out of position. "hey celtics, don't bother trying to get jason tatum isolated against karl anthony towns, were gonna do it for you."

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

You guys are just trolling lol. I know you guys love Mitch n Randle so you wanna attack KAT, but you’re ignoring all the other 12 things I asked and hyper focusing on 1 team and 1 particular player here.

People have been pointing out all season and posting clips all season of KAT doing just fine guarding guys like Tatum n SGA on the perimeter.

The thing you’re not realizing is that the majority of the time you’re seeing Tatum go at KAT and getting the upper hand is when KAT is being put in the drop position… he’s already at a disadvantage from the jump. It’s not the same. Also, sometimes Boston will even screen for the screener (KAT’s man) to free up Tatum even more, and KAT is having to fight thru just to catch up and have Tatum blow right by him. That’s being set up to fail.

Putting your individual player bias aside, and break down the actual plays, it’s easy to see how it’s not so black n white. If the original plan is to switch (again, instead of having the primary defender fighting over/under a screen with KAT in drop) then there would be no confusion and KAT would know his assignment from the start and be better prepared. He can handle 1 on 1… but having him read and focus on too much going on isn’t playing to his strengths.

[prophet_of_rage]

You can even see the impact Randle is having in Minny. In the last 9 games Randle has played, they are 9-0. His gravity and playmaking ability was very underrated here. We miss him badly, whether people want to admit it or not.

Randle has a lot of gravity just like a black hole

Thibs is not using KAT at all how he used Randle. Randle was used ISO heavy at the block and post and there were multiple plays designed just for him. Thibs got our 7 footer at the top of the key setting lame screens with JB where 99% of the time he's not the beneficiary. There are zero plays set up for KAT in this offense. They only find him during mismatches in the post. Let's not kid ourselves that KAT doesn't garner the same gravitational pull that Randle does. If we actually had a coach that knew how to use him, you would see his true impact.

Did you watch KAT try to post up Harden? Brutal.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Good thing the Knicks were without the selfish Jalen Brunson. Offense runs like a well oiled machine without his toxic me first play!

Knicks fans been complaining about iso since the Melo and Ewing days. They want a team of scrappy Tyler Koleks and Franks passing the ball around the perimeter for infinity!

Do you think this team would look better with prime Chris Paul or prime Jalen Brunson?

Prime Paul. He would get more people involved and this team is better just catching and shooting.

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[Fat]

I love this team

[spree2kawhi]

Where were all the dudes talking about how selfish Brunson was?

He still is.

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Selfish is the wrong word coach needs to call some plays though.

[3toheadmelo]

wanting to switch everything on defense is the funniest plan on here. because when teams play us they actively try to get the switch so they can get kat or brunson against someone out of position. "hey celtics, don't bother trying to get jason tatum isolated against karl anthony towns, were gonna do it for you."

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

You guys are just trolling lol. I know you guys love Mitch n Randle so you wanna attack KAT, but you’re ignoring all the other 12 things I asked and hyper focusing on 1 team and 1 particular player here.

People have been pointing out all season and posting clips all season of KAT doing just fine guarding guys like Tatum n SGA on the perimeter.

The thing you’re not realizing is that the majority of the time you’re seeing Tatum go at KAT and getting the upper hand is when KAT is being put in the drop position… he’s already at a disadvantage from the jump. It’s not the same. Also, sometimes Boston will even screen for the screener (KAT’s man) to free up Tatum even more, and KAT is having to fight thru just to catch up and have Tatum blow right by him. That’s being set up to fail.

Putting your individual player bias aside, and break down the actual plays, it’s easy to see how it’s not so black n white. If the original plan is to switch (again, instead of having the primary defender fighting over/under a screen with KAT in drop) then there would be no confusion and KAT would know his assignment from the start and be better prepared. He can handle 1 on 1… but having him read and focus on too much going on isn’t playing to his strengths.

You're forgetting that switching with KAT only works when he was at the 4 next to Gobert, which is what me and sham has been saying all year long. He needs to be at the 4 to even be somewhat competent on defense. What was Thibs supposed to do when Mitch has been injured? Play KAT next to Jericho Sims?