Knicks Clippers PG: Never again

[3toheadmelo]

Randle has a lot of gravity just like a black hole

Thibs is not using KAT at all how he used Randle. Randle was used ISO heavy at the block and post and there were multiple plays designed just for him. Thibs got our 7 footer at the top of the key setting lame screens with JB where 99% of the time he's not the beneficiary. There are zero plays set up for KAT in this offense. They only find him during mismatches in the post. Let's not kid ourselves that KAT doesn't garner the same gravitational pull that Randle does. If we actually had a coach that knew how to use him, you would see his true impact.

Did you watch KAT try to post up Harden? Brutal.

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He gets locked up by smaller wings all the time. That's why he's only averaging 16 PPG against Celtics, Cavs, OKC, Lakers.

[Wildcat]

(btw to add a little context to this Randle bs: of this mentioned 9-0 stretch they are with him, only one(!) team that they played is currently above .500)

Wrong thread brother. Fck Randle. We don't discuss him here. He's garbage.

Seems topical since we're talking about creating offense. Same way we bring up wanting Donte over Deuce. If the season ended today, the one player I would be immensely disappointed in will be Deuce. I see virtually no growth.

[WaltFrazier]

March 8, 2025
Tyler Kolek : Returns to parent club
The Knicks recalled Kolek on Friday ahead of Monday's game against the Kings. Kolek will be available for Monday's game in Sacramento, giving the Knicks some depth in the backcourt with Jalen Brunson (ankle) out. The 23-year-old guard has played in 29 games for New York this season, averaging 5.1 minutes per contest.

[Besart19]

You can even see the impact Randle is having in Minny. In the last 9 games Randle has played, they are 9-0. His gravity and playmaking ability was very underrated here. We miss him badly, whether people want to admit it or not.

Randle has a lot of gravity just like a black hole

That black hole is 9-0 in his last 9 games. You must be thrilled that we traded him so we can be extra mid this year.

he is the worst player in history in the playoffs and he practically didnt play in two consecutive playoffs

[prophet_of_rage]

wanting to switch everything on defense is the funniest plan on here. because when teams play us they actively try to get the switch so they can get kat or brunson against someone out of position. "hey celtics, don't bother trying to get jason tatum isolated against karl anthony towns, were gonna do it for you."

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

They assume because KAT automatically falls back on the switch that we are playing drop. KAT is dropping because he has no chance to .ove aize 22 feet at the level of the screen.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Where were all the dudes talking about how selfish Brunson was?

He still is.

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Selfish is the wrong word coach needs to call some plays though.

It isn't. He is very capable of passing rhe ball. He chooses not to.

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[Capn'O]

This Brunson injury right as Mitch is ramping up is so disappointing. Once again, a season where we don't really get a sustained look at our full arsenal.

Beyond that, we're in a rut. I don't think this is a contender but they've just not been playing well most games. Games haven't been that much fun to watch recently. Maybe there's a playoff switch? I don't know. But everything has looked a little out of sync and mechanical lately when we should be rounding into form.

There could be a silver lining if Mikal can get going with Brunson out.

Hit me up in the other thread if you wanna talk about this more

[spree8]

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

You guys are just trolling lol. I know you guys love Mitch n Randle so you wanna attack KAT, but you’re ignoring all the other 12 things I asked and hyper focusing on 1 team and 1 particular player here.

People have been pointing out all season and posting clips all season of KAT doing just fine guarding guys like Tatum n SGA on the perimeter.

The thing you’re not realizing is that the majority of the time you’re seeing Tatum go at KAT and getting the upper hand is when KAT is being put in the drop position… he’s already at a disadvantage from the jump. It’s not the same. Also, sometimes Boston will even screen for the screener (KAT’s man) to free up Tatum even more, and KAT is having to fight thru just to catch up and have Tatum blow right by him. That’s being set up to fail.

Putting your individual player bias aside, and break down the actual plays, it’s easy to see how it’s not so black n white. If the original plan is to switch (again, instead of having the primary defender fighting over/under a screen with KAT in drop) then there would be no confusion and KAT would know his assignment from the start and be better prepared. He can handle 1 on 1… but having him read and focus on too much going on isn’t playing to his strengths.

You're forgetting that switching with KAT only works when he was at the 4 next to Gobert, which is what me and sham has been saying all year long. He needs to be at the 4 to even be somewhat competent on defense. What was Thibs supposed to do when Mitch has been injured? Play KAT next to Jericho Sims?

I think it’s more nuanced than that tho. But Thibs had options to try them all even without Mitch. If he wanted to go that route he could’ve started Huk with KAT. Yeah he’s just a rookie and he’s gunna foul more due to his inexperience (just like Mitch did), but he’s got legit skill as a rim protector. Having him in the lineup and removing Hart for Deuce could’ve put 4 shooters in to offset the shooting issue on offense and even improved the defense more by moving Mikal off POA and Deuce in that role.

But keeping things as is, switching a lot more often even with KAT at the 5 is better than putting him in drop. The dude just can’t make the reads and doesn’t have the instinct, ability or IQ for it.

Not only that, but switching is the best answer for us to defend the 3. We’re giving way too many wide open looks.

Thibs isn’t capable of countering shyt like this that Boston is throwing at us… is this really on KAT? No way…

[Besart19]

And yet the Timberwolves are undefeated in their last 9 games with Randle. How come they weren't winning games without him? Couldn't even beat Utah

And KAT is literally the worst defensive big man in the league. He literally makes Randle look like AD on defense. Sad

wolves are 5-8 without randle with 4 of those losses being by 2 points or less. wins of +19, +13, +16, +15 and +3. wins against OKC twice, HOU and POR.

knicks are 3-4 without Kat, losses by 9, 9, 17 and 12. wins of +2, +6 and +6 against 2 of the worst teams in the league nets and philly 2x.

anyways who cares. the wolves are good with or without randle. we are seemingly mid with Kat and horrible without him.

you're trying to argue that the timberwolves are good without randle yet they went 5-8? The math ain't mathing. They couldn't even beat the Kings, Utah, Wizards without him. The fact of the matter is that they have a winning record with him and a losing record without him.

I never said the Knicks are better without KAT. But we're def worse with him this year than we were last year. Last year we were able to beat the top contenders, this year we're 0-9 against the top 3 seeds of each conference. We took a major downgrade defensively with him as well. The whole point of acquiring KAT was to unleash this mystical "5 out offense" to unlock our team's true potential but the reality is that his defense is so horrible it outweighs any impact he has on offense against the top contenders. And he's only averaging 16 PPG against those teams because his bag is so limited, meanwhile Randle is averaging 19.4 PPG 4.9 APG with a +25 against those teams.

And on top of this which you wouldn't address. No team is winning a chip with this type of defense. Sorry.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

Hit me up in the other thread if you wanna talk about this more[/quote]

for the offense thing, first, he got three different injuries during the season where two of those still bothering him!… second, he isnt to blame that Josh Hart and Mikal Bridges are Landry Fields and Micheal Kid Gilchrist second comings…

Brunson / Kolek
Mitchell / Deuce
Anunoby / Shamet
Achiuwa / Warren
Towns / Hukporti

thats 130+ ppg team… but not with a coach that has his team shoot under 20 3pt attempts most of the games and above having that two masons who throw ugly bricks 80% of the time… Mikal shooting form from above the 12 max 15 feet range is just painful

[spree8]

wanting to switch everything on defense is the funniest plan on here. because when teams play us they actively try to get the switch so they can get kat or brunson against someone out of position. "hey celtics, don't bother trying to get jason tatum isolated against karl anthony towns, were gonna do it for you."

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

They assume because KAT automatically falls back on the switch that we are playing drop. KAT is dropping because he has no chance to .ove aize 22 feet at the level of the screen.

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Read on Twitter

[spree2kawhi]

Yep Boston loves switching KAT on Tatum. I don't really understand why they think KAT is some guy who can switch 1-5 like he's Bam or JJJ.

Just take a look at these numbers: Tatum shot 15-19 (78%) with KAT guarding him this season

They assume because KAT automatically falls back on the switch that we are playing drop. KAT is dropping because he has no chance to .ove aize 22 feet at the level of the screen.

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Read on Twitter

He’s not nearly as bad as people here wish.

[3toheadmelo]

You guys are just trolling lol. I know you guys love Mitch n Randle so you wanna attack KAT, but you’re ignoring all the other 12 things I asked and hyper focusing on 1 team and 1 particular player here.

People have been pointing out all season and posting clips all season of KAT doing just fine guarding guys like Tatum n SGA on the perimeter.

The thing you’re not realizing is that the majority of the time you’re seeing Tatum go at KAT and getting the upper hand is when KAT is being put in the drop position… he’s already at a disadvantage from the jump. It’s not the same. Also, sometimes Boston will even screen for the screener (KAT’s man) to free up Tatum even more, and KAT is having to fight thru just to catch up and have Tatum blow right by him. That’s being set up to fail.

Putting your individual player bias aside, and break down the actual plays, it’s easy to see how it’s not so black n white. If the original plan is to switch (again, instead of having the primary defender fighting over/under a screen with KAT in drop) then there would be no confusion and KAT would know his assignment from the start and be better prepared. He can handle 1 on 1… but having him read and focus on too much going on isn’t playing to his strengths.

You're forgetting that switching with KAT only works when he was at the 4 next to Gobert, which is what me and sham has been saying all year long. He needs to be at the 4 to even be somewhat competent on defense. What was Thibs supposed to do when Mitch has been injured? Play KAT next to Jericho Sims?

I think it’s more nuanced than that tho. But Thibs had options to try them all even without Mitch. If he wanted to go that route he could’ve started Huk with KAT. Yeah he’s just a rookie and he’s gunna foul more due to his inexperience (just like Mitch did), but he’s got legit skill as a rim protector. Having him in the lineup and removing Hart for Deuce could’ve put 4 shooters in to offset the shooting issue on offense and even improved the defense more by moving Mikal off POA and Deuce in that role.

But keeping things as is, switching a lot more often even with KAT at the 5 is better than putting him in drop. The dude just can’t make the reads and doesn’t have the instinct, ability or IQ for it.

Thibs isn’t capable of countering shyt like this that Boston is throwing at us… is this really on KAT? No way…

I like Huk, but he isn’t ready to start. There was really no one to start next to Mitch. That’s not on Thibs.

KAT has been getting destroyed by Tatum for a while now. This is last year. He played the 5 in this game. It’s the same result. Doesn’t matter who the coach is. You’re blaming everything on drop coverage, but he’s even getting owned on switches here.

Read on Twitter

And didn’t we just see Luka target him on switches? Come on man be fr

[prophet_of_rage]

I don't have X so I don't kniw what the video shows but the almost title I find troubling and if KAT is great on the switch why is he poor in the drop? It is the same thing the big defending the ballhandler. So I look at the shooting percentages against KAT and the eye test of KAT rarely getting to the level of the screen.

I also have problems with yoye belief that a defence obsessed Thibs would not use a visibly effective strategy.

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[kNicksGmen]

And yet the Timberwolves are undefeated in their last 9 games with Randle. How come they weren't winning games without him? Couldn't even beat Utah

And KAT is literally the worst defensive big man in the league. He literally makes Randle look like AD on defense. Sad

wolves are 5-8 without randle with 4 of those losses being by 2 points or less. wins of +19, +13, +16, +15 and +3. wins against OKC twice, HOU and POR.

knicks are 3-4 without Kat, losses by 9, 9, 17 and 12. wins of +2, +6 and +6 against 2 of the worst teams in the league nets and philly 2x.

anyways who cares. the wolves are good with or without randle. we are seemingly mid with Kat and horrible without him.

you're trying to argue that the timberwolves are good without randle yet they went 5-8? The math ain't mathing. They couldn't even beat the Kings, Utah, Wizards without him. The fact of the matter is that they have a winning record with him and a losing record without him.

I never said the Knicks are better without KAT. But we're def worse with him this year than we were last year. Last year we were able to beat the top contenders, this year we're 0-9 against the top 3 seeds of each conference. We took a major downgrade defensively with him as well. The whole point of acquiring KAT was to unleash this mystical "5 out offense" to unlock our team's true potential but the reality is that his defense is so horrible it outweighs any impact he has on offense against the top contenders. And he's only averaging 16 PPG against those teams because his bag is so limited, meanwhile Randle is averaging 19.4 PPG 4.9 APG with a +25 against those teams.

And on top of this which you wouldn't address. No team is winning a chip with this type of defense. Sorry.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

Hit me up in the other thread if you wanna talk about this more

they beat OKC TWICE without randle. their net rating when he is on the bench is the same as when he's on the court (actually it is slightly better when he's not on the court



we took a major downgrade defensively because we essentially swapped Ihart - an elite defensive C for Kat - that has nothing to do with Randle.

would the team be better defensively if we traded for kessler and played randle at the 4? SURE but the offense and spacing would also be bad. what is the net result of that? who knows.

there's nothing wrong with your belief the team should have ran it back and would be better, it's a fair thing to debate. but you constantly cherry pick things to push the agenda that Kat is terrible and Randle is great when the majority of advanced numbers show otherwise.

[spree8]

You're forgetting that switching with KAT only works when he was at the 4 next to Gobert, which is what me and sham has been saying all year long. He needs to be at the 4 to even be somewhat competent on defense. What was Thibs supposed to do when Mitch has been injured? Play KAT next to Jericho Sims?

I think it’s more nuanced than that tho. But Thibs had options to try them all even without Mitch. If he wanted to go that route he could’ve started Huk with KAT. Yeah he’s just a rookie and he’s gunna foul more due to his inexperience (just like Mitch did), but he’s got legit skill as a rim protector. Having him in the lineup and removing Hart for Deuce could’ve put 4 shooters in to offset the shooting issue on offense and even improved the defense more by moving Mikal off POA and Deuce in that role.

But keeping things as is, switching a lot more often even with KAT at the 5 is better than putting him in drop. The dude just can’t make the reads and doesn’t have the instinct, ability or IQ for it.

Thibs isn’t capable of countering shyt like this that Boston is throwing at us… is this really on KAT? No way…

I like Huk, but he isn’t ready to start. There was really no one to start next to Mitch. That’s not on Thibs.

KAT has been getting destroyed by Tatum for a while now. This is last year. He played the 5 in this game. It’s the same result. Doesn’t matter who the coach is. You’re blaming everything on drop coverage, but he’s even getting owned on switches here.

Read on Twitter

And didn’t we just see Luka target him on switches? Come on man be fr

First two plays in that video is KAT in drop coverage. Tatum only “got” KAT in this 1 min clip when he spun him around on that drive to the rim. The other two legitimate 1 on 1 makes was on an iso step back 3 and another layup where KAT stuck with him the whole play, but it was just better offense.

And na I didn’t see Luka target KAT on switches. There was only like a couple plays where KAT picked him on the switch and defended him really well but Luka is Luka and makes tough shots no matter who’s guarding him. Same with Tatum.

Somebody needs to compile clips of KAT in drop vs KAT in man coverage so you can see the massive difference. Everybody gets cooked here n there 1 on 1… you can find footage on every great man defender, but the point here is that KAT in drop coverage is far far worse than him in man coverage. There’s really no comparison.

[RHODEY]

wolves are 5-8 without randle with 4 of those losses being by 2 points or less. wins of +19, +13, +16, +15 and +3. wins against OKC twice, HOU and POR.

knicks are 3-4 without Kat, losses by 9, 9, 17 and 12. wins of +2, +6 and +6 against 2 of the worst teams in the league nets and philly 2x.

anyways who cares. the wolves are good with or without randle. we are seemingly mid with Kat and horrible without him.

you're trying to argue that the timberwolves are good without randle yet they went 5-8? The math ain't mathing. They couldn't even beat the Kings, Utah, Wizards without him. The fact of the matter is that they have a winning record with him and a losing record without him.

I never said the Knicks are better without KAT. But we're def worse with him this year than we were last year. Last year we were able to beat the top contenders, this year we're 0-9 against the top 3 seeds of each conference. We took a major downgrade defensively with him as well. The whole point of acquiring KAT was to unleash this mystical "5 out offense" to unlock our team's true potential but the reality is that his defense is so horrible it outweighs any impact he has on offense against the top contenders. And he's only averaging 16 PPG against those teams because his bag is so limited, meanwhile Randle is averaging 19.4 PPG 4.9 APG with a +25 against those teams.

And on top of this which you wouldn't address. No team is winning a chip with this type of defense. Sorry.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

Hit me up in the other thread if you wanna talk about this more

they beat OKC TWICE without randle. their net rating when he is on the bench is the same as when he's on the court (actually it is slightly better when he's not on the court



we took a major downgrade defensively because we essentially swapped Ihart - an elite defensive C for Kat - that has nothing to do with Randle.

would the team be better defensively if we traded for kessler and played randle at the 4? SURE but the offense and spacing would also be bad. what is the net result of that? who knows.

there's nothing wrong with your belief the team should have ran it back and would be better, it's a fair thing to debate. but you constantly cherry pick things to push the agenda that Kat is terrible and Randle is great when the majority of advanced numbers show otherwise.

Agreed, losing Ihart set us back way more than losing Randle.

[spree8]

I also have problems with yoye belief that a defence obsessed Thibs would not use a visibly effective strategy.

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You have problems believing Thibs wouldn’t change his strategy?

[bballoctober]

i’m not gonna lie… i might even take rj over mikal right now..

They are more similar than I have enjoyed watching now that you mention it lol. Divo was the anti-RJ/Mikal

It made way more sense to run it back with Randle and Donte and use some assets to get a C instead of wasting all of them on KAT and Mikal.

Sign Moses Brown to begin the season, then get Nick Richards or Jurkic at the deadline. I can see your point.

[FrozenEnvelope]

Bogey should never get 2 offensive rebounds. That was the game. Oh and Towns bricking those 2 3s. Deuce sucked. OG was meh but played nice defense. Thibs needs to ban candy in the locker room if Josh doesn't shoot an open 3 again.

We will be fine. Next few games are kind of easy minus the Warriors.

[3toheadmelo]

I think it’s more nuanced than that tho. But Thibs had options to try them all even without Mitch. If he wanted to go that route he could’ve started Huk with KAT. Yeah he’s just a rookie and he’s gunna foul more due to his inexperience (just like Mitch did), but he’s got legit skill as a rim protector. Having him in the lineup and removing Hart for Deuce could’ve put 4 shooters in to offset the shooting issue on offense and even improved the defense more by moving Mikal off POA and Deuce in that role.

But keeping things as is, switching a lot more often even with KAT at the 5 is better than putting him in drop. The dude just can’t make the reads and doesn’t have the instinct, ability or IQ for it.

Thibs isn’t capable of countering shyt like this that Boston is throwing at us… is this really on KAT? No way…

I like Huk, but he isn’t ready to start. There was really no one to start next to Mitch. That’s not on Thibs.

KAT has been getting destroyed by Tatum for a while now. This is last year. He played the 5 in this game. It’s the same result. Doesn’t matter who the coach is. You’re blaming everything on drop coverage, but he’s even getting owned on switches here.

Read on Twitter

And didn’t we just see Luka target him on switches? Come on man be fr

First two plays in that video is KAT in drop coverage. Tatum only “got” KAT in this 1 min clip when he spun him around on that drive to the rim. The other two legitimate 1 on 1 makes was on an iso step back 3 and another layup where KAT stuck with him the whole play, but it was just better offense.

And na I didn’t see Luka target KAT on switches. There was only like a couple plays where KAT picked him on the switch and defended him really well but Luka is Luka and makes tough shots no matter who’s guarding him. Same with Tatum.

Somebody needs to compile clips of KAT in drop vs KAT in man coverage so you can see the massive difference. Everybody gets cooked here n there 1 on 1… you can find footage on every great man defender, but the point here is that KAT in drop coverage is far far worse than him in man coverage. There’s really no comparison.

I mean even the clips you posted, Tatum is blowing past by KAT with ease. That’s not on Thibs bro.

My point is that no matter who the coach is, KAT sucks awfully on defense at the 5. If Minny couldn’t figure it out for years with different coaches… why are you trying to pin everything on Thibs? That’s trolling lol

The team that just won the championship plays drop coverage. They switch 1-4 and the 5 is in drop majority of the time. It’s essential to have a rim protector on a championship team. Every team that has won in the past 5 years had one besides Denver.
You want us to switch everything like Houston used to do with Mike D’anphony harden rockets teams. Thats not winning a championship man.

At the end of the day, deep down you know that the only way to be successful with KAT is playing him next to a rim protector.