2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[RRR3]

SGA quite literally is leading Jokic in EPM and LEBRON right now but Jokic stans still INSIST Jokic is far better and people saying it's debatable are being ridiculous because...reasons? The absolute disrespect to SGA in this thread from Jokic stans is infuriating, they're having fairly equal seasons and if you can't admit that you're an obvious biased stan.


Funny how in past years all these impact stats were the reason Jokic was the best but now they don't matter when he's not clearly the best

[Sweet Serenity]

All I know is Tatum should win the bronze in this race.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

So, reasonable perspective, but it also offers an entry point into the essence of the dilemma:

Jokic is having the best offensive season of all time.
Shai is also having an all-time great level offensive season, and doing so while also being a significant part of the best defense in the league.

The latter isn't necessarily more valuable than the former, but might it be? Yes, it's clearly possible.

Is it actually? Well, that's the question without consensus.

These are some of the dynamics, but also how much is it a question of "who has been the best player this season" v "relevance to team success". How do you weigh those factors?

Both Denver and OKC have lost key players to injury, but Jokic is the guy who isn't playing with a single other all-star. OKC is probably going to finish with ~10 more wins than Denver, but Cleveland has a similar record and no one is talking about any Cavs player for MVP (and rightly so). So to me, this pushes the convo towards giving more weighting to "who has been the best player this year"

And there, it's almost impossible to make a case for SGA over Jokic. Jokic is dominating across almost every statistical category AND is likely to end the season as only the 3rd player in history to average a triple-double for a season (and the 1st non-guard to do it). Jokic already has 4 of the 5 highest apg seasons for a center in NBA history and this year he is going to blow past that 9.8 mark.

I don't want to diminish SGA's season. He's been incredible. But I really get the feeling that there is a hunt for reasons to not give the MVP to Jokic.

The thingh about the all star thingh this year, and to a degree all other recent years, is that denver has not been good enough for murray to win an all star nod

If okc and denver switched records murray would be an all star and jalen williams wouldnt even be acnowledged as a real candidate by most

You can prefer jalen over murray, but a lot of the recent perception one is clearly better than the other is murray slump last year and okc having too many wins to not get a 2nd all star

Like, mo willians made a (replacement) all star gane because lebron took cavs to 66 and he was not better than jamal (nor in the same level)

Meanwhile on shai vs jokic themselves

You mention triple doubles, a stat that had became mocked and diminished when a worse player won mvp with it but has cane back in vogue as non "arbitrary" anymore than a more popular/better player does it

Shai is running away with the league scoring title, extremely efficiently at that, elevating his team to historic winninh margins when he plays, breaking the net rating/point differential records, gonna win 67 with a very affected by injuries roster. Leads EPM (the "best" recognized public advanced metric) Leads by a lot in on court net rating, has a 11 wins lead on jokic

If anythingh, people (rightfully) considering jokic the better player still is the only reason this is not a runaway mvp for shai.

You have it completely backwards, people are looking to find a way to have jokic still be mvp

Murray has 2 issues: he's a borderline all-star talent and he plays in a league/conference full of really good guards. He's not making an all-star team over Booker, Curry, Doncic, Irving, Harden, Edwards, SGA, Morant, or Fox.

As for triple-doubles (or any singular stat) you can pretend like it doesn't matter, but it has to be taken into context of a larger picture, which I've already laid out.

Again, the MVP is generally a subjectively weighted measure of "who has been the best player in the L this year" and "who is most valuable to a successful team". My opinion is Jokic is far and away the best player in the league and has proven that again this year. And I don't think there is a convincing argument SGA is more valuable to OKC than Jokic is to Denver. That said, SGA is having a monster season and I don't think anybody expected OKC to finish with 60+ wins or to run away with the West. So you have to give the edge to SGA when it comes to the "team" aspect of the weighting.

For me, though, Jokic's individual output is the biggest difference between him and SGA, and that's why he's my MVP choice.

[Jaqua92]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

[RRR3]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

The thought of SGA winning MVP is making you act like a toddler, grow up. Sorry your hero isn't clearly the best player anymore, but stop with the ridiculous stanning and irrational claims if you want to be taken seriously.

[hardenASG13]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

[DrModesty]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

I think it might actually be that he can't stomach Shai being viewed as better than Tatum, and it is harder to justify that position if SGA wins MVP. Jokic just being a vessel for the feeling.

But hey, I could be wrong.

[hardenASG13]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

I think it might actually be that he can't stomach Shai being viewed as better than Tatum, and it is harder to justify that position if SGA wins MVP. Jokic just being a vessel for the feeling.

But hey, I could be wrong.

I sincerely hope that's not the case.

[Jaqua92]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

I think it might actually be that he can't stomach Shai being viewed as better than Tatum, and it is harder to justify that position if SGA wins MVP. Jokic just being a vessel for the feeling.

But hey, I could be wrong.

Very wrong I've always been low on Tatum up until this year. And it's cool if SGA is better. Lighten up, its sports and its fun

[Jaqua92]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

SGA is winning mvp this year. That's fine. Denver could win both games by 30 and it is and should be SGA's mvp to lose.

Look, this is a weirdly personal comment you're making here. And respectfully, id like you to clarify to me why you needed to make this personal.

Are you that bothered by my fun here that you need to make it personal? Does questioning my wellness somehow justify your opinion of my opinions? Come on man. Take a step back.

I wouldn't be posting this stuff if I was unwell. Picking a villain and their fans to root against is just how I lean into the fun of sports. SGA is a deserving MVP and is having an ridiculously great guard season and is better than Tatum...I see that and wont deny it, that's just...boring for me as a sports fan. I also DO think hes being just a bit overhyped, sometimes significantly overhyped for the season hes having and I do think hes not having as good of a season as Joker. So I lean into that because its fun. Banter, cynicism and dramatics are just part of the fun of being a sports fan and I find it enjoyable to engage that way. Its just play.

You dont have to like it, you are free to block me, ignore me, argue against my points, thats fun. But there's no need to make it personal. Its just sports.

[EmpireFalls]

SGA quite literally is leading Jokic in EPM and LEBRON right now but Jokic stans still INSIST Jokic is far better and people saying it's debatable are being ridiculous because...reasons? The absolute disrespect to SGA in this thread from Jokic stans is infuriating, they're having fairly equal seasons and if you can't admit that you're an obvious biased stan.


Funny how in past years all these impact stats were the reason Jokic was the best but now they don't matter when he's not clearly the best

I’ve never had anything against Jokic but yeah.

Shai MVP voters - “he’s leading a team to a historic net rating, team is winning by 18 points when he’s on the floor, advanced stats are 1A or 1B, what an amazing season!”

Jokic MVP voters - “How DARE you suggest ANYONE is even CLOSE to Jokic as a player. The gap between him and everyone else is GIGANTIC. Everyone knows Denver is a G LEAGUE TEAM and Jokic is playing at THE HIGHEST LEVEL BY FAR. He’s OBVIOUSLY the BEST and there’s frankly NO DEBATE”

Hm…

[hardenASG13]

Back to back at home for OKC after Denvers rough travel schedule this weekend.

Looking forward to the overreaction. Still find it hilarious that OKC is treating this like their championship

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

SGA is winning mvp this year. That's fine. Denver could win both games by 30 and it is and should be SGA's mvp to lose.

Look, this is a weirdly personal comment you're making here. And respectfully, id like you to clarify to me why you needed to make this personal.

Are you that bothered by my fun here that you need to make it personal? Does questioning my wellness somehow justify your opinion of my opinions? Come on man. Take a step back.

I wouldn't be posting this stuff if I was unwell. Picking a villain and their fans to root against is just how I lean into the fun of sports. SGA is a deserving MVP and is having an ridiculously great guard season and is better than Tatum...I see that and wont deny it, that's just...boring for me as a sports fan. I also DO think hes being just a bit overhyped, sometimes significantly overhyped for the season hes having and I do think hes not having as good of a season as Joker. So I lean into that because its fun. Banter, cynicism and dramatics are just part of the fun of being a sports fan and I find it enjoyable to engage that way. Its just play.

You dont have to like it, you are free to block me, ignore me, argue against my points, thats fun. But there's no need to make it personal. Its just sports.

No interest in blocking you, and I agree arguing against a certain player/fan base can be fun. I enjoy going back and forth with the Jokic GOAT crew. The way you prop Jokic/denounce OKC makes it seem to me you're taking it personally/not having fun with it. I'm glad to hear that isn't the case.

[DrModesty]

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

I think it might actually be that he can't stomach Shai being viewed as better than Tatum, and it is harder to justify that position if SGA wins MVP. Jokic just being a vessel for the feeling.

But hey, I could be wrong.

Very wrong I've always been low on Tatum up until this year. And it's cool if SGA is better. Lighten up, its sports and its fun

I've been in good spirits the whole season. Things literally couldn't be going better. Feels like you have been posting with an angry or negative slant a lot in any thread that involves SGA is all.

[Jaqua92]

OKC certainly isn't treating it like their championship, you've just built that up in your head. You seem unwell. Jokic doesn't know who you are, you know that, right? There won't be any overreaction needed, SGA and Jokic are both having great seasons, with SGAs team success making him a strong favorite to win MVP and rightfully so. If they win b2b vs Denver it'd only cement what appears inevitable.

SGA is winning mvp this year. That's fine. Denver could win both games by 30 and it is and should be SGA's mvp to lose.

Look, this is a weirdly personal comment you're making here. And respectfully, id like you to clarify to me why you needed to make this personal.

Are you that bothered by my fun here that you need to make it personal? Does questioning my wellness somehow justify your opinion of my opinions? Come on man. Take a step back.

I wouldn't be posting this stuff if I was unwell. Picking a villain and their fans to root against is just how I lean into the fun of sports. SGA is a deserving MVP and is having an ridiculously great guard season and is better than Tatum...I see that and wont deny it, that's just...boring for me as a sports fan. I also DO think hes being just a bit overhyped, sometimes significantly overhyped for the season hes having and I do think hes not having as good of a season as Joker. So I lean into that because its fun. Banter, cynicism and dramatics are just part of the fun of being a sports fan and I find it enjoyable to engage that way. Its just play.

You dont have to like it, you are free to block me, ignore me, argue against my points, thats fun. But there's no need to make it personal. Its just sports.

No interest in blocking you, and I agree arguing against a certain player/fan base can be fun. I enjoy going back and forth with the Jokic GOAT crew. The way you prop Jokic/denounce OKC makes it seem to me you're taking it personally/not having fun with it. I'm glad to hear that isn't the case.

Nah man. Its just my sports language. Life can be chaotic and stressful, nothing wrong with taking an opportunity to be a dramatic kid.

Things get misconstrued over text, especially if there's a pattern. But I guarantee you all would be laughing with me vs mocking me if this was face to face. SGA is a hell of a player and I could break down in detail why I think he's great, his shot IQ, his statistically optimized and balanced shot profile, and I can also break down why I think OKC likely gets to the finals but isnt ready to win it all yet. But man, that just isnt exciting

Its never personal.

And to be clear, while I think Jokic is having a top 5 all time peak, and the GOAT offensive peak, he doesn't even crack my all time top 10.

[Jaqua92]

I think it might actually be that he can't stomach Shai being viewed as better than Tatum, and it is harder to justify that position if SGA wins MVP. Jokic just being a vessel for the feeling.

But hey, I could be wrong.

Very wrong I've always been low on Tatum up until this year. And it's cool if SGA is better. Lighten up, its sports and its fun

I've been in good spirits the whole season. Things literally couldn't be going better. Feels like you have been posting with an angry or negative slant a lot in any thread that involves SGA is all.

Negative yes. Hes just the player im villifying this season. I know he's great. Its all play man. Its just how i engage in sports. Don't take me seriously lol

[Special_Puppy]

SGA quite literally is leading Jokic in EPM and LEBRON right now but Jokic stans still INSIST Jokic is far better and people saying it's debatable are being ridiculous because...reasons? The absolute disrespect to SGA in this thread from Jokic stans is infuriating, they're having fairly equal seasons and if you can't admit that you're an obvious biased stan.


Funny how in past years all these impact stats were the reason Jokic was the best but now they don't matter when he's not clearly the best

I’ve never had anything against Jokic but yeah.

Shai MVP voters - “he’s leading a team to a historic net rating, team is winning by 18 points when he’s on the floor, advanced stats are 1A or 1B, what an amazing season!”

Jokic MVP voters - “How DARE you suggest ANYONE is even CLOSE to Jokic as a player. The gap between him and everyone else is GIGANTIC. Everyone knows Denver is a G LEAGUE TEAM and Jokic is playing at THE HIGHEST LEVEL BY FAR. He’s OBVIOUSLY the BEST and there’s frankly NO DEBATE”

Hm…

In fairness, its not like the pro-Jokic people have a monopoly on bad arguments. There are a lot of pro-SGA people making bad arguments its just that the pro-Jokic people outnumber the pro-SGA people (and a lot of the pro-SGA people actually like Jokic better overall they just think SGA is more deserving overall this year) on this board so you don't hear the bad arguments from the pro-SGA people as much

[EmpireFalls]

Have yet to hear anyone argue SGA is the greatest player of all time lol.

[JustBuzzin]

SGA about to win his 1st MVP.

Congrats young fella you earned this one.

[Castle Black]

The NBA is really going to reward this type of behavior with an MVP... nasty work.

Read on Twitter

[GeorgeSears]

The Nuggets are an embarrassment and Jokic doesn't deserve MVP. Let's wrap up these threads because Shai has clinched it.