20 greatest defensive power forwards ever?

[Ruma85]

According to hoopshype.

Thoughts

https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-defensive-power-forwards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/

[Larry_Russell]

Its OK I guess.

I think Rodman has to be number 1 on the list, I think SHeed should be much higher than he is. But Its allright I guess.

[dockingsched]

Seems like they went out of their way to prop up the early generations

[Ruma85]

Seems like they went out of their way to prop up the early generations

Who should they add, I might be in minority but is Grant really top 20?

[JDR720]

Looked through the other list articles. One of them specifically mentioned RealGM when talking about Russell on the centers list. They also mentioned the same topic on Wilt's spot.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-defensive-centers-ever-the-hoopshype-list/

One RealGM poster went back through old newspaper articles to give a rough estimate of the type of block numbers Russell might have put up in his prime and came up with 8.1 blocks on a sample size of 135 games. Obviously, the actual number was almost certainly lower than that, as games in which Russell got a mundane number of blocks probably didn’t get mentioned in the post-game newspaper reports as often. Plus, his career spanned 963 regular-season games, so 135 games is a decent but not great sample size for Russell’s time in the NBA.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1413138

[jasonxxx102]

Its OK I guess.

I think Rodman has to be number 1 on the list, I think SHeed should be much higher than he is. But Its allright I guess.

Rodman wasn't even close to the defensive player that KG was

[dhsilv2]

Power forward is the most convoluted of all positions. As it's traditionally been a second center but at times it's a poor ball handling wing. And thus we have Giannis and Duncan be considered the same thing when they have nothing in common beyond being of similar height.

As for the list, it's fine. The top 2 are pretty obvious and not really up for debate. The rest are all worthy guys I suppose but the order is a bit meh. Love that they gave Grant his due. Sheed was comically underrated. Not sure Dray isn't a clear 3 to be honest but Rodman is fine.

[Ruma85]

Looked through the other list articles. One of them specifically mentioned RealGM when talking about Russell on the centers list.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-defensive-centers-ever-the-hoopshype-list/

One RealGM poster went back through old newspaper articles to give a rough estimate of the type of block numbers Russell might have put up in his prime and came up with 8.1 blocks on a sample size of 135 games. Obviously, the actual number was almost certainly lower than that, as games in which Russell got a mundane number of blocks probably didn’t get mentioned in the post-game newspaper reports as often. Plus, his career spanned 963 regular-season games, so 135 games is a decent but not great sample size for Russell’s time in the NBA.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1413138

We famous.

[Ruma85]

Power forward is the most convoluted of all positions. As it's traditionally been a second center but at times it's a poor ball handling wing. And thus we have Giannis and Duncan be considered the same thing when they have nothing in common beyond being of similar height.

As for the list, it's fine. The top 2 are pretty obvious and not really up for debate. The rest are all worthy guys I suppose but the order is a bit meh. Love that they gave Grant his due. Sheed was comically underrated. Not sure Dray isn't a clear 3 to be honest but Rodman is fine.

Where would you put Sheed? I be honest I haven't seen much of Grant to say he gets due, I was surprised to see him here.

[Ruma85]

Its OK I guess.

I think Rodman has to be number 1 on the list, I think SHeed should be much higher than he is. But Its allright I guess.

Rodman wasn't even close to the defensive player that KG was

Honestly KG should be first.

[Larry_Russell]

Its OK I guess.

I think Rodman has to be number 1 on the list, I think SHeed should be much higher than he is. But Its allright I guess.

Rodman wasn't even close to the defensive player that KG was

Yeah, he was.

He was both the best low post defender in the NBA and was at one point the best wing defender in the NBA.

I would argue he is top 3 all time defender in NBA history with really only Russell as a absolute above him.

Rodman has relentless energy, fantastic speed, elite hands, elite rebounding, elite positioning and foot movement.

[dhsilv2]

Power forward is the most convoluted of all positions. As it's traditionally been a second center but at times it's a poor ball handling wing. And thus we have Giannis and Duncan be considered the same thing when they have nothing in common beyond being of similar height.

As for the list, it's fine. The top 2 are pretty obvious and not really up for debate. The rest are all worthy guys I suppose but the order is a bit meh. Love that they gave Grant his due. Sheed was comically underrated. Not sure Dray isn't a clear 3 to be honest but Rodman is fine.

Where would you put Sheed? I be honest I haven't seen much of Grant to say he gets due, I was surprised to see him here.

I haven't seen enough Bobby Jones. But I think Sheed is similar to Giannis and Davis in terms of his defensive play. He was an absolute beast as a shot blocker but often pair him with other big men who blocked shots you'd not see it in the box score. Similarly, he was an elite rebounder but again paired with guys like Ben Wallace the stat sheet doesn't show what you'd want to see. I'd say his peak was likely about the same as AD or just below. But I think he was more consistent. Giannis likely was stronger at his peak but he seems to have dropped off some as his offensive burden is higher.

But just to lay in some context. XRAPM https://xrapm.com/table_pages/xRAPM_hist.html

2000 Sheed and Duncan were -3.3 with Deke at -3.5 and Robinson -3.8
2001 Sheed similarly -3.2 and Duncan at -4 Robinson -4.2 and Deke -4 Ben Wallace at -3.7
2002 same stuff -3.1 with Duncan at -4.1 Ben at -3.7
2003 bit of a drop to -2.4 but that would have him ahead of Kirilenko and Shawn Marion, two defensive beasts of that era. But not -4.4 like ben or -4.2 like Duncan
2004 back to the -3.1 which has him second tier after the obvious guys I've been listing (add in KG in the -4 group). Has him around Bow Outlaw, a forgotten elite defensive guy.

This gives us a pretty solid 5 year peak/prime (I didn't look at 99 or after 2004 as this is enough data). But it paints the picture pretty well. He wasn't at his best on the same level as perhaps the top tier defensive centers but it was centers (plus Duncan who is a center and KG who is...well KG) who were really his competition for the top defensive spots.

[dhsilv2]

Its OK I guess.

I think Rodman has to be number 1 on the list, I think SHeed should be much higher than he is. But Its allright I guess.

Rodman wasn't even close to the defensive player that KG was

Yeah, he was.

He was both the best low post defender in the NBA and was at one point the best wing defender in the NBA.

I would argue he is top 3 all time defender in NBA history with really only Russell as a absolute above him.

Rodman has relentless energy, fantastic speed, elite hands, elite rebounding, elite positioning and foot movement.

Rodman wasn't able to consistently challenge players at the rim. He's nowhere close to KG and Duncan. Let alone Deke, Hakeem, or Wilt for that matter. Rodman was a great defender but you're going wild with this take. Even in his defensive player of the year seasons, the Pistons never reached the defensive heights, relative to league, that KG and Duncan reached.

[Clay Davis]

Chris Bosh doesn't have the rizz for this list? He was a key component of the switch-heavy defence of the early 2010s Heat, which would go on to be a blueprint teams would follow for the next 10 years.

[dhsilv2]

Chris Bosh doesn't have the rizz for this list? He was a key component of the switch-heavy defence of the early 2010s Heat, which would go on to be a blueprint teams would follow for the next 10 years.

He was a solid plus defender for the heat. But top 20? No...just no.

[70sFan]

It's actually quite solid, better than I thought it would be. I'm glad they gave Dave and Bobby the respect they deserve, Silas inclusion also surprised me.

You can nitpick about the order here and there, you can also put some players there (I think Satch Sanders should be somewhere in the top 20), but overall it's quite solid one. Certainly better than centers list in my opinion.

[Larry_Russell]

Rodman wasn't even close to the defensive player that KG was

Yeah, he was.

He was both the best low post defender in the NBA and was at one point the best wing defender in the NBA.

I would argue he is top 3 all time defender in NBA history with really only Russell as a absolute above him.

Rodman has relentless energy, fantastic speed, elite hands, elite rebounding, elite positioning and foot movement.

Rodman wasn't able to consistently challenge players at the rim. He's nowhere close to KG and Duncan. Let alone Deke, Hakeem, or Wilt for that matter. Rodman was a great defender but you're going wild with this take. Even in his defensive player of the year seasons, the Pistons never reached the defensive heights, relative to league, that KG and Duncan reached.

Far more to defense that shotblocking.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah, he was.

He was both the best low post defender in the NBA and was at one point the best wing defender in the NBA.

I would argue he is top 3 all time defender in NBA history with really only Russell as a absolute above him.

Rodman has relentless energy, fantastic speed, elite hands, elite rebounding, elite positioning and foot movement.

Rodman wasn't able to consistently challenge players at the rim. He's nowhere close to KG and Duncan. Let alone Deke, Hakeem, or Wilt for that matter. Rodman was a great defender but you're going wild with this take. Even in his defensive player of the year seasons, the Pistons never reached the defensive heights, relative to league, that KG and Duncan reached.

Far more to defense that shotblocking.

There is of course true. Most of great defense comes from your ability to cover space, switch, rotate, and ultimately stop guys who aren't your man. Being longer and having a greater reach makes this exceptionally easier to do and makes you more valuable. Being able to do all this around the rim where you can block shots, it's the most valuable asset on a basketball court. It's why Duncan is generally given the nod over KG who was a better defender pretty much everywhere but at the rim. But compared to KG, Rodman was a non factor at the rim. And Rodman doesn't really have any huge advantages outside of his rebounding anywhere else on the court. You can argue at Rodman's peak size he was a better post defender. But his roided up bull's self didn't have nearly the lateral speed he had on the Pistons when he could legit cover wings like MJ and Pippen. His wing self however couldn't really stop bigger guys in the post.

Now if there were a magical hybrid of Rodman between his Bull's self and Pistons self...we might have a discussion. But that wasn't a real player.

[louc1970]

I have always viewed the best defenders as those that keep their assignment under their scoring average (and how far under their average).

Rodney McCray will get no love, but he was one of the better defenders at the PF spot.

[Bornstellar]

They definitely got #1 correct