2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[falcolombardi]

Even if we are saying that Williams and Murray equal themselves out, there’s no universe where MPJ would have a bigger impact as a #3 than Chet.

chet has played like less than 20 games this year, some on minutes restriction

The comparision you are looking for is harstentein vs gordon which is not as clear cut

[hardenASG13]

Remove SGA from our starting line up and we are not a good offensive team.

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

There is a very huge difference between Jalen Williams and Jamal Murray on defense. Jalen Williams is a significant positive on defense, while Murray is a negative. I think Murray is probably a little bit better as an offensive player, but if you think they’re at all similar as offensive players, then Jalen Williams is definitely significantly better overall due to defense.

This exact argument can be made for Joel Embiid in 2023 when he won MVP over Jokic (even though he also averaged 8 more ppg than Jokic, too). The hypocracy of Jokic fans here is being exposed, and the house of cards equating his stats to some GOAT level great is crumbling. He better win a quality series this year. OKC is a much better team than Denver this year, and if Jokic was significantly better than SGA, as many here suggest, that wouldn't be the case. The difference in their supporting casts isn't that significant. Denver should be much closer to OKCs level if Jokic is as good as many here think he is.

[slick_watts]

Remove SGA from our starting line up and we are not a good offensive team.

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

There is a very huge difference between Jalen Williams and Jamal Murray on defense. Jalen Williams is a significant positive on defense, while Murray is a negative. I think Murray is probably a little bit better as an offensive player, but if you think they’re at all similar as offensive players, then Jalen Williams is definitely significantly better overall due to defense.

this is very true.

[RRR3]

I think some people don't realize that having a better supporting cast does not prevent you from being as good or better than someone with a weaker one. According to impact data, SGA has been as good or better than Jokic this year. I would admit that the stats are so close that it's probably irrational to say SGA is better definitively, so I'd go with them being pretty even, with it being a toss up as to who's had the better year. You really can't go wrong with either one. SGA having better teammates is irrelevant because he's been just as good as Jokic, and you COULD argue better. It's definitely the best MVP race I can remember in quite some time. But there is a tendency of many posters here to underrate SGA, I guess some don't realize just how high he is peaking right now, the last time we saw a guard with this much two-way impact was either peak Dwyane Wade or peak Chris Paul.

[SpurNani]

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

There is a very huge difference between Jalen Williams and Jamal Murray on defense. Jalen Williams is a significant positive on defense, while Murray is a negative. I think Murray is probably a little bit better as an offensive player, but if you think they’re at all similar as offensive players, then Jalen Williams is definitely significantly better overall due to defense.

this is very true.

Whats also true is you didnt bother to respond to the offensive efficiency stats posted after you foolishly shaded me for not looking them up. They actually favor Murray.

Now the argument is changing to well Jdubb is a better defender than Murray lmao gotta love JokeEgg fans.

[slick_watts]

There is a very huge difference between Jalen Williams and Jamal Murray on defense. Jalen Williams is a significant positive on defense, while Murray is a negative. I think Murray is probably a little bit better as an offensive player, but if you think they’re at all similar as offensive players, then Jalen Williams is definitely significantly better overall due to defense.

this is very true.

Whats also true is you didnt bother to respond to the offensive efficiency stats posted after you foolishly shaded me for not looking them up. They actually favor Murray.

i was telling the other guy to look up their efficiencies before posting nonsense. i know that jamal murray is more efficient than jalen williams. relax.

[lessthanjake]

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

There is a very huge difference between Jalen Williams and Jamal Murray on defense. Jalen Williams is a significant positive on defense, while Murray is a negative. I think Murray is probably a little bit better as an offensive player, but if you think they’re at all similar as offensive players, then Jalen Williams is definitely significantly better overall due to defense.

This exact argument can be made for Joel Embiid in 2023 when he won MVP over Jokic (even though he also averaged 8 more ppg than Jokic, too). The hypocracy of Jokic fans here is being exposed, and the house of cards equating his stats to some GOAT level great is crumbling. He better win a quality series this year. OKC is a much better team than Denver this year, and if Jokic was significantly better than SGA, as many here suggest, that wouldn't be the case. The difference in their supporting casts isn't that significant. Denver should be much closer to OKCs level if Jokic is as good as many here think he is.

No, that exact argument can’t be made for Joel Embiid in 2023, for several reasons. One is that, as good as Embiid is offensively, Jokic is a substantially better offensive player than Embiid. The other is that Jokic is not a negative defensively, like Murray is. Basically, it’s just a completely different comparison, because the players involved are different. So yeah, I mean, you could make the same argument in the very general sense that you can try to say “Jokic’s advantage on offense is overcome by Embiid’s advantage on defense,” but the specifics about the players are obviously not the same, and it’s the specifics that matter in this kind of comparison.

[SpurNani]

this is very true.

Whats also true is you didnt bother to respond to the offensive efficiency stats posted after you foolishly shaded me for not looking them up. They actually favor Murray.

i was telling the other guy to look up their efficiencies before posting nonsense. i know that jamal murray is more efficient than jalen williams. relax.

My bad Slick i thought you were of Jaquas disciples

[Infinite Llamas]

I think some people don't realize that having a better supporting cast does not prevent you from being as good or better than someone with a weaker one. According to impact data, SGA has been as good or better than Jokic this year. I would admit that the stats are so close that it's probably irrational to say SGA is better definitively, so I'd go with them being pretty even, with it being a toss up as to who's had the better year. You really can't go wrong with either one. SGA having better teammates is irrelevant because he's been just as good as Jokic, and you COULD argue better. It's definitely the best MVP race I can remember in quite some time. But there is a tendency of many posters here to underrate SGA, I guess some don't realize just how high he is peaking right now, the last time we saw a guard with this much two-way impact was either peak Dwyane Wade or peak Chris Paul.

Teammates don’t come into play when we are assessing their individual seasons. But it becomes part of the equation if we are gonna use OKC record against DEN record.

And I’m not blind to SGA season. I’m sure I’ve come across as harsh to him in many posts but maybe some of that is from frustration. The man is a machine and never has bad games. As a Jokic fan, it’s disheartening to know that his historical season will come up short of awards but there is no shame to losing to someone with the resume that Shai has this year. He’s really been that good and will be a rightful winner. I’ll still remain on my side of the fence but it doesn’t mean I don’t recognize greatness when I see it.

[Jaqua92]

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

Efficiency matters. JDub is more effecient, and leads in most metrics

it takes five seconds to actually look up their scoring efficiencies you know. take a breath before posting nonsense.

Murray shoots 1.6% in terms of TS. Yes, you're right. Incredible.

JDub also leads him in PER, ws/48, and every other metric. I looked all of that up and overlooked the ts - i saw Jdubs previous season.

But my point remains. J Dub is simply a more impactful player.

[RRR3]

Efficiency matters. JDub is more effecient, and leads in most metrics

it takes five seconds to actually look up their scoring efficiencies you know. take a breath before posting nonsense.

Murray shoots 1.6% in terms of TS. Yes, you're right. Incredible.

JDub also leads him in PER, ws/48, and every other metric. I looked all of that up and overlooked the ts - i saw Jdubs previous season.

But my point remains. J Dub is simply a more impactful player.

And impact stats say SGA is more impactful than Jokic

[canada_dry]

Someone posted a history review for several decades. Winning matters as in ">.5 record" but there have been several winners from lower seeds than #1 or #2.

The truth is, there are no absolute rules or truths outside of this message board when it comes to MVP criteria.

As for the desired outcome of this race, i believe you are quite biased here, so theres little point arguing with you. Enjoy the ride, i wont lose sleep over SGA winning it this year. In the unprobable case that Joker wins (which he should) i hope you can say the same.

Thats right. Its usually been top 3. Outside of the 2 examples i mentioned just recently. Thats it.

And no. I LOVE Jokic. Im a jokic guy. I think hes historically great offensively and i always have. So miss me with the bias crap just because theres "canada" in my name. I don't think sga is better than jokic.

Im simply pushing back against the ugly true colors shown by jokic's fanbase on these threads. Especially this year. Its always everyone else's fault on the nuggets. Teammates crap. Murray is crap. Etc etc. Thats all. It has nothing to do with jokic the player. Love him. Appreciate the greatness im witnessing. Just fanboys like you is where i have a problem.

Its actually exactly the same as lebron fanboys that you have a history of calling out. I have the same issues with them historically. And kobe stans. Etc etc. Nothing against the players. Just the fanboys. Its not lost on me The fact that you dislike one and are part of the other is hypocritical.

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Would you at least concede with Jokic fans why Murray is infuriating sometimes? The fact you never know if he’s going to show up as not is extremely problematic for a team with zero depth and little margin for error. I do feel Murray get scapegoated a bit sometimes but…when he’s bad he’s a dreadful player. Braun has been the second best player on Denver for many games this year and that’s not a recipe for success. MPJ and Murray are being paid very handsomely and their results are massively inconsistent.

Jokic has moments where he isn’t playing well. Nobody is beyond criticism, but Jokic’s teammates have let him down more than the other way around.

I'll admit that when you can admit that after the very slow start to the season and coming off that abysmal performance for team canada and all the hand wringing about him and jokics lack of help, which was true at the time, that jamaal murray has CLEARLY been playing at another level and a very high level pretty consistently for the past 40 games. You guys still act like hes the same guy that started the season. Jokic fans are so allergic to giving murray any credit because they think it takes away from jokic greatness. I found this true of lebron stans and kobe stans of the past. Its pure stanism. But it doesn't take away anything from jokic! He's still the best player in the world. He just happens to have a pretty good #2 option and that's okay. Everyone needs that. Breathe. Relax. It's okay.

Is jamaal Murray a secondary star that at TIMES plays underwhelmingly every once in a while? Sure. But that's what a secondary star is. Its the reality of the league. SGA also deals with an inconsistent #2 who has a history of coming up small in big games where murray has a history of coming up big. Boston fans have the same complains about jalen brown. Thats just what the league is. Secondary stars arent every single game guys...if that wasn't the case they wouldn't be a secondary star. Its the reality of the league we live in. Jamaal Murray playing at this level hes at now is literally the least of your problems. Its a crisis averted based on how he was playing earlier and the contract. Things are ok now. Its the rest of the roster and your FO /your FO relationship with the head coach thats the issue.

You guys shouldn't be bagging on jamaal the way you have been. There are clearly bigger issues like an FO that are wasting one of the greatest peaks ever by letting vets walk and forcing young guys down your coaches throat while your coach doesn't particularly appreciate the forced feeding.

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[canada_dry]

Remove SGA from our starting line up and we are not a good offensive team.

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

Facts.

And that's after an awful start to the season. Since then those same stats are clearly in murrays favor.

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[Exp0sed]

Remove SGA from our starting line up and we are not a good offensive team.

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

Facts.

And that's after an awful start to the season. Since then those same stats are clearly in murrays favor.

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just because Murray's stats are good doesn't mean he's been playing well. he hasn't.

[Exp0sed]

Did I seriously just hear SGA is being carried by his teammates? Say what you want but SGA fans are not saying wild stuff like this about Jokic. It’s one side refusing to admit how good the other guy is in this thread.

Its really night and day between the 2 fanbases.

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Your fanbase is calling SGA comparible to peak MJ, championship favorites, best player in the world etc.

here's peak MJ for ya:

Watch on YouTube

SGA has mastered it well, no doubt. look how he turns his head to see exactly where WB is then proceeds to bait and jump into him.
now, once you get called for a couple of those, you just give him tons of space and he's too quick and skilled, if you give him that space he'll beat you to the spot or to the cup

NBA really needs to clean this up

[RRR3]

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

Facts.

And that's after an awful start to the season. Since then those same stats are clearly in murrays favor.

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just because Murray's stats are good doesn't mean he's been playing well. he hasn't.

Even when Jokic’s teammates produce big numbers they still apparently suck. Approaching Kobe stan levels of delusion

[Exp0sed]

Facts.

And that's after an awful start to the season. Since then those same stats are clearly in murrays favor.

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just because Murray's stats are good doesn't mean he's been playing well. he hasn't.

Even when Jokic’s teammates produce big numbers they still apparently suck. Approaching Kobe stan levels of delusion

Murray takes away from this team's biggest strength which is - the ball in Jokic's hands

so yeah, him shooting slightly above league average on higher volume is actually worse for them, then him scoring less and giving the ball to Jokic, more.

i'm betting you don't watch many Nuggets games, Murray has not been good this season. raw stats never tell the whole picture and in Murray's particular case, they're misleading this season. he's been worse than his stats suggest, imo.

[canada_dry]

Did I seriously just hear SGA is being carried by his teammates? Say what you want but SGA fans are not saying wild stuff like this about Jokic. It’s one side refusing to admit how good the other guy is in this thread.

Its really night and day between the 2 fanbases.

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Your fanbase is calling SGA comparible to peak MJ, championship favorites, best player in the world etc.

Brother. There are posts about jokic having THE GREATEST season of all time vs people saying SGA is having ONE OF the greatest GUARD seasons ever. Yes that includes 91 Jordan. One seems a lot more "mild" than the other.

We're all on this forum. We see the discourse. You cant lie, gaslight and strawman about what the narratives are. We have eyes. We read. You can't lie about stats, efficiency and narratives and expect to just skate by

Ever since SGA blocked Tatum on that layup and OKC owned Boston in the 2nd half of that game, you've been broken. SGA has broken you. Its been an overall disasterclass from you in this thread. Of epic proportions.

Idk if its sad and tough to watch or if its entertaining moreso than anything else.

Probably a bit of both.

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[canada_dry]

just because Murray's stats are good doesn't mean he's been playing well. he hasn't.

Even when Jokic’s teammates produce big numbers they still apparently suck. Approaching Kobe stan levels of delusion

Murray takes away from this team's biggest strength which is - the ball in Jokic's hands

so yeah, him shooting slightly above league average on higher volume is actually worse for them, then him scoring less and giving the ball to Jokic, more.

i'm betting you don't watch many Nuggets games, Murray has not been good this season. raw stats never tell the whole picture and in Murray's particular case, they're misleading this season. he's been worse than his stats suggest, imo.

So they want help for jokic...except when it means having jokic take a back seat and have a break for a stretch at a time so he doesn't have to do everything? Not like that . How sway?

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

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[canada_dry]

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

Facts.

And that's after an awful start to the season. Since then those same stats are clearly in murrays favor.

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just because Murray's stats are good doesn't mean he's been playing well. he hasn't.

He factually has. Especially the past 40 or so games. Just not in jokic stans world. Which is its own alternate reality, a fact more and more people are realizing.

All SGA teammates good. All jokic teammates bad. Yay.

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