2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Infinite Llamas]

Thats right. Its usually been top 3. Outside of the 2 examples i mentioned just recently. Thats it.

And no. I LOVE Jokic. Im a jokic guy. I think hes historically great offensively and i always have. So miss me with the bias crap just because theres "canada" in my name. I don't think sga is better than jokic.

Im simply pushing back against the ugly true colors shown by jokic's fanbase on these threads. Especially this year. Its always everyone else's fault on the nuggets. Teammates crap. Murray is crap. Etc etc. Thats all. It has nothing to do with jokic the player. Love him. Appreciate the greatness im witnessing. Just fanboys like you is where i have a problem.

Its actually exactly the same as lebron fanboys that you have a history of calling out. I have the same issues with them historically. And kobe stans. Etc etc. Nothing against the players. Just the fanboys. Its not lost on me The fact that you dislike one and are part of the other is hypocritical.

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Would you at least concede with Jokic fans why Murray is infuriating sometimes? The fact you never know if he’s going to show up as not is extremely problematic for a team with zero depth and little margin for error. I do feel Murray get scapegoated a bit sometimes but…when he’s bad he’s a dreadful player. Braun has been the second best player on Denver for many games this year and that’s not a recipe for success. MPJ and Murray are being paid very handsomely and their results are massively inconsistent.

Jokic has moments where he isn’t playing well. Nobody is beyond criticism, but Jokic’s teammates have let him down more than the other way around.

I'll admit that when you can admit that after the very slow start to the season and coming off that abysmal performance for team canada and all the hand wringing about him and jokics lack of help, which was true at the time, that jamaal murray has CLEARLY been playing at another level and a very high level pretty consistently for the past 40 games. You guys still act like hes the same guy that started the season. Jokic fans are so allergic to giving murray any credit because they think it takes away from jokic greatness. I found this true of lebron stans and kobe stans of the past. Its pure stanism. But it doesn't take away anything from jokic! He's still the best player in the world. He just happens to have a pretty good #2 option and that's okay. Everyone needs that. Breathe. Relax. It's okay.

Is jamaal Murray a secondary star that at TIMES plays underwhelmingly every once in a while? Sure. But that's what a secondary star is. Its the reality of the league. SGA also deals with an inconsistent #2 who has a history of coming up small in big games where murray has a history of coming up big. Boston fans have the same complains about jalen brown. Thats just what the league is. Secondary stars arent every single game guys...if that wasn't the case they wouldn't be a secondary star. Its the reality of the league we live in. Jamaal Murray playing at this level hes at now is literally the least of your problems. Its a crisis averted based on how he was playing earlier and the contract. Things are ok now. Its the rest of the roster and your FO /your FO relationship with the head coach thats the issue.

You guys shouldn't be bagging on jamaal the way you have been. There are clearly bigger issues like an FO that are wasting one of the greatest peaks ever by letting vets walk and forcing young guys down your coaches throat while your coach doesn't particularly appreciate the forced feeding.

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Yes Murray has been playing better but then I think about 3 games in the past two weeks. Lakers. Bucks. Thunder. Murray was a no show in these games against top teams when Denver desperately needed him to show up. Bucks game wasn’t as bad but still, he was underwhelming. The 55 against Portland and 30+ against Charlotte looks nice, but it’s against the marquee teams that he needs to provide more. Iirc he was invisible against the Celtics in the first half when the team fell into a hole.

I’m a Celtics fan so I know all about Jaylen Brown. He has a criminally low bball iq but he plays with other high iq players that mask his deficiencies quite well. The Celtics don’t need Brown to show up every night though. Guys like White and KP and even Pritchard can step into that #2 spot on any given night. Denver just has a lot less room for error. And if Murray is having a bad game, you can almost pencil in the loss for Denver.

[canada_dry]

Would you at least concede with Jokic fans why Murray is infuriating sometimes? The fact you never know if he’s going to show up as not is extremely problematic for a team with zero depth and little margin for error. I do feel Murray get scapegoated a bit sometimes but…when he’s bad he’s a dreadful player. Braun has been the second best player on Denver for many games this year and that’s not a recipe for success. MPJ and Murray are being paid very handsomely and their results are massively inconsistent.

Jokic has moments where he isn’t playing well. Nobody is beyond criticism, but Jokic’s teammates have let him down more than the other way around.

I'll admit that when you can admit that after the very slow start to the season and coming off that abysmal performance for team canada and all the hand wringing about him and jokics lack of help, which was true at the time, that jamaal murray has CLEARLY been playing at another level and a very high level pretty consistently for the past 40 games. You guys still act like hes the same guy that started the season. Jokic fans are so allergic to giving murray any credit because they think it takes away from jokic greatness. I found this true of lebron stans and kobe stans of the past. Its pure stanism. But it doesn't take away anything from jokic! He's still the best player in the world. He just happens to have a pretty good #2 option and that's okay. Everyone needs that. Breathe. Relax. It's okay.

Is jamaal Murray a secondary star that at TIMES plays underwhelmingly every once in a while? Sure. But that's what a secondary star is. Its the reality of the league. SGA also deals with an inconsistent #2 who has a history of coming up small in big games where murray has a history of coming up big. Boston fans have the same complains about jalen brown. Thats just what the league is. Secondary stars arent every single game guys...if that wasn't the case they wouldn't be a secondary star. Its the reality of the league we live in. Jamaal Murray playing at this level hes at now is literally the least of your problems. Its a crisis averted based on how he was playing earlier and the contract. Things are ok now. Its the rest of the roster and your FO /your FO relationship with the head coach thats the issue.

You guys shouldn't be bagging on jamaal the way you have been. There are clearly bigger issues like an FO that are wasting one of the greatest peaks ever by letting vets walk and forcing young guys down your coaches throat while your coach doesn't particularly appreciate the forced feeding.

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Yes Murray has been playing better but then I think about 3 games in the past two weeks. Lakers. Bucks. Thunder. Murray was a no show in these games against top teams when Denver desperately needed him to show up. Bucks game wasn’t as bad but still, he was underwhelming. The 55 against Portland and 30+ against Charlotte looks nice, but it’s against the marquee teams that he needs to provide more. Iirc he was invisible against the Celtics in the first half when the team fell into a hole.

I’m a Celtics fan so I know all about Jaylen Brown. He has a criminally low bball iq but he plays with other high iq players that mask his deficiencies quite well. The Celtics don’t need Brown to show up every night though. Guys like White and KP and even Pritchard can step into that #2 spot on any given night. Denver just has a lot less room for error. And if Murray is having a bad game, you can almost pencil in the loss for Denver.

That's a FO problem and a roster construction issue. Basically what i mentioned above. We agree that jokics peak isn't being taken advantage of well enough but that's really not all on Murray. In fact id say it's unfair to put all that on his shoulders when its not his fault the team is built so crap. Jokic fans should be able to recognize that too rather than to continue to pile on just because that takes blame away from jokic who shouldn't have much blame either. For the most part Murray is filling the role of #2 star to expectations of what a #2 star is. Its too bad they don't have a white, porzingis or holiday. But a roster that deep doesn't only cover up for brown as a #2, It covers up for tatum as a #1 when hes inevitably scoring inefficiently in the playoffs drop again and they can still win. You could argue for jokic, THE best player in the world, that shouldn't be necessary. He doesn't need a bomb squad like Boston to win. He's proven that already.

I wouldn't be surprised if come playoffs Gordon is healthy(very under discussed), jamal Murray is playing like himself, mpj , while inconsistent, is able to go off some games each series...things will start making a bit more sense.

I don't really buy that if murray struggles its an automatic L for denver. Jokic has won many games without him in his career. He also won games at the beginning of the season with murray playing like booty water. Its the regular season and the playoffs is different obviously but still. He's that good. This level of Murray is a Godsend tbh. Look at the rest of the roster.

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[Infinite Llamas]

I'll admit that when you can admit that after the very slow start to the season and coming off that abysmal performance for team canada and all the hand wringing about him and jokics lack of help, which was true at the time, that jamaal murray has CLEARLY been playing at another level and a very high level pretty consistently for the past 40 games. You guys still act like hes the same guy that started the season. Jokic fans are so allergic to giving murray any credit because they think it takes away from jokic greatness. I found this true of lebron stans and kobe stans of the past. Its pure stanism. But it doesn't take away anything from jokic! He's still the best player in the world. He just happens to have a pretty good #2 option and that's okay. Everyone needs that. Breathe. Relax. It's okay.

Is jamaal Murray a secondary star that at TIMES plays underwhelmingly every once in a while? Sure. But that's what a secondary star is. Its the reality of the league. SGA also deals with an inconsistent #2 who has a history of coming up small in big games where murray has a history of coming up big. Boston fans have the same complains about jalen brown. Thats just what the league is. Secondary stars arent every single game guys...if that wasn't the case they wouldn't be a secondary star. Its the reality of the league we live in. Jamaal Murray playing at this level hes at now is literally the least of your problems. Its a crisis averted based on how he was playing earlier and the contract. Things are ok now. Its the rest of the roster and your FO /your FO relationship with the head coach thats the issue.

You guys shouldn't be bagging on jamaal the way you have been. There are clearly bigger issues like an FO that are wasting one of the greatest peaks ever by letting vets walk and forcing young guys down your coaches throat while your coach doesn't particularly appreciate the forced feeding.

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Yes Murray has been playing better but then I think about 3 games in the past two weeks. Lakers. Bucks. Thunder. Murray was a no show in these games against top teams when Denver desperately needed him to show up. Bucks game wasn’t as bad but still, he was underwhelming. The 55 against Portland and 30+ against Charlotte looks nice, but it’s against the marquee teams that he needs to provide more. Iirc he was invisible against the Celtics in the first half when the team fell into a hole.

I’m a Celtics fan so I know all about Jaylen Brown. He has a criminally low bball iq but he plays with other high iq players that mask his deficiencies quite well. The Celtics don’t need Brown to show up every night though. Guys like White and KP and even Pritchard can step into that #2 spot on any given night. Denver just has a lot less room for error. And if Murray is having a bad game, you can almost pencil in the loss for Denver.

That's a FO problem and a roster construction issue. Basically what i mentioned above. We agree that jokics peak isn't being taken advantage of well enough but that's really not all on Murray. In fact id say it's unfair to put all that on his shoulders when its not his fault the team is built so crap. Jokic fans should be able to recognize that too rather than to continue to pile on just because that takes blame away from jokic who shouldn't have much blame either. For the most part Murray is filling the role of #2 star to expectations of what a #2 star is. Its too bad they don't have a white, porzingis or holiday. But a roster that deep doesn't only cover up for brown as a #2, It covers up for tatum as a #1 when hes inevitably scoring inefficiently in the playoffs drop again and they can still win. You could argue for jokic, THE best player in the world, that shouldn't be necessary. He doesn't need a bomb squad like Boston to win. He's proven that already.

I wouldn't be surprised if come playoffs Gordon is healthy(very under discussed), jamal Murray is playing like himself, mpj , while inconsistent, is able to go off some games each series...things will start making a bit more sense.

I don't really buy that if murray struggles its an automatic L for denver. Jokic has won many games without him in his career. He also won games at the beginning of the season with murray playing like booty water. Its the regular season and the playoffs is different obviously but still. He's that good. This level of Murray is a Godsend tbh. Look at the rest of the roster.

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I mean, yeah…it’s a front office issue. The owner is clearly a football guy and Denver is forced to overpay for guys like MPJ because they’ll never bring in star name free agents. It’s the curse of being a small market team with an inept GM and bumbling owner. Braun was a hit but they let worthy backups like Hartenstein and Huff go. They killed Zeke Naji trajectory by miscasting him as a backup center and never bothering to develop him. Malone still doesn’t seem to fully trust Peyton Watson. A guy like Beasley wanted out because he couldn’t get minutes. Somebody like a Lonnie Walker would be more productive than Strawther but Denver sat on their hands.

Their management put all the eggs into the starting lineups basket and haven’t made any shrewd moves to build a team with the constraints they clearly have. There’s just little maneuverability with the team in the case of an injury like Gordon. They just, quite simply, don’t have enough NBA players on their NBA roster.

I don’t think any Denver Nuggets fan is going to sing the praises of Booth/Kroenke.

[Exp0sed]

Even when Jokic’s teammates produce big numbers they still apparently suck. Approaching Kobe stan levels of delusion

Murray takes away from this team's biggest strength which is - the ball in Jokic's hands

so yeah, him shooting slightly above league average on higher volume is actually worse for them, then him scoring less and giving the ball to Jokic, more.

i'm betting you don't watch many Nuggets games, Murray has not been good this season. raw stats never tell the whole picture and in Murray's particular case, they're misleading this season. he's been worse than his stats suggest, imo.

So they want help for jokic...except when it means having jokic take a back seat and have a break for a stretch at a time so he doesn't have to do everything? Not like that . How sway?

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

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whose "they"?
yes, Nuggets are stuck with Murray's albatross contract and they have only themselves to blame for it

ofc Jokic needs better help than Murray and MPJ and spoiler alert: it's not on the offensive side of the ball where he needs more help. in 2022, Nuggets were the 6th best offense in the league with MPJ and Murray sidelined all season, key starters were offensive juggernauts like Facu Campazzo and Will Barton. Murray has the decision making of Jordan Poole and he'd be viewed very differently if he'd spent his career so far playing for a tanking bottom feeder. there's a reason even after all these years, Murray led second units are still amongst the worst in the league and the Nuggets get smoked by literally anyone without Jokic on the floor

if u swap J-Dub with Murray (for example), Nuggets would be considerably better and more versatile and more dangerous than they are now. I don't see what's so hard to accept about that honestly

edit: see how well they matched up with the Thunder before AG went down, that's the dropoff from a big phsyical guy who can guard multiple positions to...WB

now imagine a Jokic\J-Dub\MPJ\AG\Braun lineup. would u agree that's a better lineup than the current one? they'd be real contenders with just this one swap...

[Peregrine01]

I really think that Murray would've faded into obscurity on any other team that wasn't the Nuggets. History isn't kind to guards who are injury prone, low motor and extremely streaky. Jokic has gotten a lot of guys ridiculously paid.

[Baz]

I don't want to see Jokic winning the MVP if the Nuggets drop below the 4th seed

[Castle Black]

Steph comes to mind. Maybe Luka? Who else?

Read on Twitter

[Exp0sed]

I don't want to see Jokic winning the MVP if the Nuggets drop below the 4th seed

SGA is winning it regardless and rightfully so, imo but Nuggets likely hold on to #2-#3

[Exp0sed]

I really think that Murray would've faded into obscurity on any other team that wasn't the Nuggets. History isn't kind to guards who are injury prone, low motor and extremely streaky. Jokic has gotten a lot of guys ridiculously paid.

idk about "obscurity" but he's basically a rich man's Collin Sexton. still a guy that gets paid (and thus isn't "obscure") but certainly not a max player and def not a number 2 option

[MrPainfulTruth]

Its really night and day between the 2 fanbases.

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Your fanbase is calling SGA comparible to peak MJ, championship favorites, best player in the world etc.

Brother. There are posts about jokic having THE GREATEST season of all time vs people saying SGA is having ONE OF the greatest GUARD seasons ever. Yes that includes 91 Jordan. One seems a lot more "mild" than the other.

We're all on this forum. We see the discourse. You cant lie, gaslight and strawman about what the narratives are. We have eyes. We read. You can't lie about stats, efficiency and narratives and expect to just skate by

Ever since SGA blocked Tatum on that layup and OKC owned Boston in the 2nd half of that game, you've been broken. SGA has broken you. Its been an overall disasterclass from you in this thread. Of elic proportions.

Idk if its sad and tough to watch or if its entertaining moreso than anything else.

Probably a bit of both.

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Fortunately this guy isnt the stereotypical SGA fanboy. I have trust in their fanbase despite the LBJ mouthpiece and Jokic/Kobe hater (you know who i mean) and this guy who mostly seems to try to troll and agitate fan bases against each other.

[canada_dry]

Murray takes away from this team's biggest strength which is - the ball in Jokic's hands

so yeah, him shooting slightly above league average on higher volume is actually worse for them, then him scoring less and giving the ball to Jokic, more.

i'm betting you don't watch many Nuggets games, Murray has not been good this season. raw stats never tell the whole picture and in Murray's particular case, they're misleading this season. he's been worse than his stats suggest, imo.

So they want help for jokic...except when it means having jokic take a back seat and have a break for a stretch at a time so he doesn't have to do everything? Not like that . How sway?

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

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whose "they"?
yes, Nuggets are stuck with Murray's albatross contract and they have only themselves to blame for it

ofc Jokic needs better help than Murray and MPJ and spoiler alert: it's not on the offensive side of the ball where he needs more help. in 2022, Nuggets were the 6th best offense in the league with MPJ and Murray sidelined all season, key starters were offensive juggernauts like Facu Campazzo and Will Barton. Murray has the decision making of Jordan Poole and he'd be viewed very differently if he'd spent his career so far playing for a tanking bottom feeder. there's a reason even after all these years, Murray led second units are still amongst the worst in the league and the Nuggets get smoked by literally anyone without Jokic on the floor

if u swap J-Dub with Murray (for example), Nuggets would be considerably better and more versatile and more dangerous than they are now. I don't see what's so hard to accept about that honestly

edit: see how well they matched up with the Thunder before AG went down, that's the dropoff from a big phsyical guy who can guard multiple positions to...WB

now imagine a Jokic\J-Dub\MPJ\AG\Braun lineup. would u agree that's a better lineup than the current one? they'd be real contenders with just this one swap...

Yeahhh...no.

It was a duo that fit well enough to win when murray played well. The fit is fine. More than fine. Its a really good guard/big duo.

Its on the FO to find pieces that fit well around them. Defenders to make up for jokics weaknesses. Its also on jokic to get in the shape he was in a couple years ago when he was agile enough to defend decently. Hes bigger than he was back then. Some more effort too. That's on him. None of the above is murrays fault. FO and Jokic himself. It doesn't make Murray not good like you've been trying to convince everyone all year. That's nonsense.

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[canada_dry]

You would never know it from the negativity, but Murray and JDubb are actually averaging the exact same PPG as the second scoring option on their respective teams.

But only Murray gets hate for not helping Jokic enough.

Facts.

And that's after an awful start to the season. Since then those same stats are clearly in murrays favor.

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just because Murray's stats are good doesn't mean he's been playing well. he hasn't.

Yeah man. He really doesn't look like he's been playing that well. Not that good. Albatross contract. Awful fit. All that good stuff

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[web123888]

Jokic —> the true MVP.

[Exp0sed]

35\17\7 with 1 turnover on 15-20 shooting against the best defense in the league , not too shabby for an MVP runner up

[Handlez]

Jokic just stole the MVP.

Wooooooow!

[BigGargamel]

Jokic does so much more than SGA, it's not even funny. It's really gonna be a shame when he doesn't win it.

[AleksandarN]

35 18 8

[canada_dry]

Their offense shredded up the best defense. Impressive.

SGA quiet while the nuggets went on their run. Not impressive.

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[SpurNani]

Unlike Jokic fans, i wont immediately be blaming SGA losing and getting outperformed by his counterpart on his running mate not playing the 2nd half in a game they were winning.

I can give credit where its due and say Jokic was by far the best on the court. He is amazing. Its his legion of fans who act like this race shouldn’t even be a discussion that set me off.

Would love to see them matched up in a series.

[VINO 24]

There’s levels to this. The eye test doesn’t lie. Jokic literally is one of the greatest players ever and maybe the best offensive player ever, having his best season ever. He clears and it’s not even close in my opinion. Look at the impact on the court tonight, if we’re comparing head to head