2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[Peregrine01]

2. OKC and CLE are just skull crushing the NBA as they have all season. I understand the skepticism of both team but strictly on performance so far they are the clear favorites for the title.

i don't understand how anyone can be skeptical of OKC. they are putting up a historic net rating and have a clear MVP level player having a historically good year. those types of teams basically always win the title. OKC is going to win the title unless they get a major injury. and then one day they're going to use their million draft picks to get another all-star/superstar and probably rack up 4 or 5 titles during this run and probably take a run at 74 wins one season. unless they run out of money to pay everyone but that doesn't seem like a threat for now.

cleveland skepticism is much easier to understand. they are more like watching a better version of that "4 all-star" hawks team that started 40-8. mitchell isn't playing at an mvp level (or even close), with most of the stats on the team being won by mobley and allen. and it's way easier to not trust that darius garland is going to be great in the playoff or that mobley will not be able to make the outside shots when it really matters. and a healthy boston still has too much "role player" dominance in white/holiday/pritchard to not trust them more than cleveland's role players. if tatum shoots like last years playoffs though, maybe cleveland could beat them.

If there is one weakness that OKC has, it's playmaking in a half-court setting. Tonight Denver aggressively trapped SGA at half court and it really stalled their offense in the second half. As great as SGA is, he's not Luka in these types of situations. That extra half-second it takes to make a read allows the defense to recover.

[70sFan]

2. OKC and CLE are just skull crushing the NBA as they have all season. I understand the skepticism of both team but strictly on performance so far they are the clear favorites for the title.

i don't understand how anyone can be skeptical of OKC. they are putting up a historic net rating and have a clear MVP level player having a historically good year. those types of teams basically always win the title. OKC is going to win the title unless they get a major injury. and then one day they're going to use their million draft picks to get another all-star/superstar and probably rack up 4 or 5 titles during this run and probably take a run at 74 wins one season. unless they run out of money to pay everyone but that doesn't seem like a threat for now.

cleveland skepticism is much easier to understand. they are more like watching a better version of that "4 all-star" hawks team that started 40-8. mitchell isn't playing at an mvp level (or even close), with most of the stats on the team being won by mobley and allen. and it's way easier to not trust that darius garland is going to be great in the playoff or that mobley will not be able to make the outside shots when it really matters. and a healthy boston still has too much "role player" dominance in white/holiday/pritchard to not trust them more than cleveland's role players. if tatum shoots like last years playoffs though, maybe cleveland could beat them.

If there is one weakness that OKC has, it's playmaking in a half-court setting. Tonight Denver aggressively trapped SGA at half court and it really stalled their offense in the second half. As great as SGA is, he's not Luka in these types of situations. That extra half-second it takes to make a read allows the defense to recover.

I think Williams injury was a bit more problematic than anything related to Shai's ability or lack of ability.

[therealbig3]

Didn't think this deserved its own thread, just more of a curiosity, and I wonder how people determine this:

Why has LeBron not been considered a PG outside of like his rookie year? He's been listed at SF and PF, but functionally, what makes his role any different than a guy like Magic or Nash? These were guys that were pretty ball-dominant and were the engines behind their offenses. I'm not making any remark about James not playing off ball or saying he couldn't...he obviously could and did very well, but he's been his teams' primary ball handler, decision maker, passer pretty much his entire career. Why does he not get the PG label? Is it because of his size? That doesn't make sense either, because Magic was listed at PG.

Is it because he played next to a PG? Again, Magic played next to other PGs and small guards, Chalmers isn't really any different than Byron Scott. Kyrie Irving is CLEARLY more of a SG.

IDK, I don't quite get how we differentiate LeBron's role in his teams' offenses from the role that other HOF PGs played for their teams. Which means, he should be considered a PG, no? He certainly doesn't play like your typical SF.

[sp6r=underrated]

Didn't think this deserved its own thread, just more of a curiosity, and I wonder how people determine this:

Why has LeBron not been considered a PG outside of like his rookie year? He's been listed at SF and PF, but functionally, what makes his role any different than a guy like Magic or Nash? These were guys that were pretty ball-dominant and were the engines behind their offenses. I'm not making any remark about James not playing off ball or saying he couldn't...he obviously could and did very well, but he's been his teams' primary ball handler, decision maker, passer pretty much his entire career. Why does he not get the PG label? Is it because of his size? That doesn't make sense either, because Magic was listed at PG.

Is it because he played next to a PG? Again, Magic played next to other PGs and small guards, Chalmers isn't really any different than Byron Scott. Kyrie Irving is CLEARLY more of a SG.

IDK, I don't quite get how we differentiate LeBron's role in his teams' offenses from the role that other HOF PGs played for their teams. Which means, he should be considered a PG, no? He certainly doesn't play like your typical SF.

My guess is Lebron doesn't want to be called a point guard so his people haven't fought to get him labeled as one. I'm not sure why he doesn't want the point guard label but if he did I think we would have found out. And as you said the case for calling him a point guard is overwhelming.

[sp6r=underrated]

Since the Luka trade, 5 worse teams by MOV and 5 best

Code: Select all

Team                   Wins   Losses    MOV
Charlotte Hornets       3       14     -14.5
Philadelphia 76ers      3       13     - 8.6
New Orleans Pelicans    5       11     - 8.1
Dallas Mavericks        6       10     - 7.8
Utah Jazz               4       13     - 7.1


...

No Wizards on that list! We are almost at risk of screwing up the tank; fortunately we started the season like we did.

They are missing tank commander Kuzma.

[parsnips33]

GPII should absolutely get a job in television after he retires. One of the most charismatic guys in recent Warriors vintage

Plus he had his career high in scoring last night!

On the Blazers side, Camara impressed as usual. Also really like Avdija and Clingan, think that team is poised to make a leap soon

[Special_Puppy]

Didn't think this deserved its own thread, just more of a curiosity, and I wonder how people determine this:

Why has LeBron not been considered a PG outside of like his rookie year? He's been listed at SF and PF, but functionally, what makes his role any different than a guy like Magic or Nash? These were guys that were pretty ball-dominant and were the engines behind their offenses. I'm not making any remark about James not playing off ball or saying he couldn't...he obviously could and did very well, but he's been his teams' primary ball handler, decision maker, passer pretty much his entire career. Why does he not get the PG label? Is it because of his size? That doesn't make sense either, because Magic was listed at PG.

Is it because he played next to a PG? Again, Magic played next to other PGs and small guards, Chalmers isn't really any different than Byron Scott. Kyrie Irving is CLEARLY more of a SG.

IDK, I don't quite get how we differentiate LeBron's role in his teams' offenses from the role that other HOF PGs played for their teams. Which means, he should be considered a PG, no? He certainly doesn't play like your typical SF.

FWIW BBall Reference's position estimates have LeBron as a SF for most of his career. They only thought he was a PG in 2020+2021

[lessthanjake]

Didn't think this deserved its own thread, just more of a curiosity, and I wonder how people determine this:

Why has LeBron not been considered a PG outside of like his rookie year? He's been listed at SF and PF, but functionally, what makes his role any different than a guy like Magic or Nash? These were guys that were pretty ball-dominant and were the engines behind their offenses. I'm not making any remark about James not playing off ball or saying he couldn't...he obviously could and did very well, but he's been his teams' primary ball handler, decision maker, passer pretty much his entire career. Why does he not get the PG label? Is it because of his size? That doesn't make sense either, because Magic was listed at PG.

Is it because he played next to a PG? Again, Magic played next to other PGs and small guards, Chalmers isn't really any different than Byron Scott. Kyrie Irving is CLEARLY more of a SG.

IDK, I don't quite get how we differentiate LeBron's role in his teams' offenses from the role that other HOF PGs played for their teams. Which means, he should be considered a PG, no? He certainly doesn't play like your typical SF.

I’ve been generally discussing this in another thread, but I think whether someone is a PG requires applying a holistic balancing that takes into account the player’s size and the extent to which they are a pass-first or score-first player.

LeBron is not a PG-sized player. Granted, that definitely doesn’t preclude him from being a PG. After all, Magic Johnson was clearly a PG. But he’s also not quite a pass-first player—certainly not to the level of Magic. He definitely looks to pass and is quite good at it, but he’s also a high-volume scorer, so he’s somewhere in the middle on the pass-first/score-first spectrum. I think that all leads to him being not quite a PG. I think if LeBron had the cartoonish ball-dominance that we’ve seen with guys like Harden and Luka, then we might conclude he was a PG anyways, despite not being a small player and not exactly being a pass-first player. But, while LeBron was definitely a vanguard of heliocentricity, he doesn’t dominate the ball quite like those guys have, so I don’t think we can just say LeBron has the ball so much that we must classify him as a PG.

[Peregrine01]

i don't understand how anyone can be skeptical of OKC. they are putting up a historic net rating and have a clear MVP level player having a historically good year. those types of teams basically always win the title. OKC is going to win the title unless they get a major injury. and then one day they're going to use their million draft picks to get another all-star/superstar and probably rack up 4 or 5 titles during this run and probably take a run at 74 wins one season. unless they run out of money to pay everyone but that doesn't seem like a threat for now.

cleveland skepticism is much easier to understand. they are more like watching a better version of that "4 all-star" hawks team that started 40-8. mitchell isn't playing at an mvp level (or even close), with most of the stats on the team being won by mobley and allen. and it's way easier to not trust that darius garland is going to be great in the playoff or that mobley will not be able to make the outside shots when it really matters. and a healthy boston still has too much "role player" dominance in white/holiday/pritchard to not trust them more than cleveland's role players. if tatum shoots like last years playoffs though, maybe cleveland could beat them.

If there is one weakness that OKC has, it's playmaking in a half-court setting. Tonight Denver aggressively trapped SGA at half court and it really stalled their offense in the second half. As great as SGA is, he's not Luka in these types of situations. That extra half-second it takes to make a read allows the defense to recover.

I think Williams injury was a bit more problematic than anything related to Shai's ability or lack of ability.

Never said that Williams' being out didn't hurt. But if I were to nitpick and try to point out a flaw of a historically great team then that'd be it.

[Special_Puppy]

Shai flat out looked better than Jokic. These bs box stats have some of you fooled lmao. Jokic is center version of Westbrook. I’ll always give him props for the finals run but other than that. Lmao. Shai is the best player in basketball rn.

I don’t understand this. Jokic is 2nd in career RAPM which doesn’t look at the box score at all https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[Special_Puppy]

[list=][/list]

2. OKC and CLE are just skull crushing the NBA as they have all season. I understand the skepticism of both team but strictly on performance so far they are the clear favorites for the title.

i don't understand how anyone can be skeptical of OKC. they are putting up a historic net rating and have a clear MVP level player having a historically good year. those types of teams basically always win the title. OKC is going to win the title unless they get a major injury.

Would you take OKC over the field?

[falcolombardi]

[list=][/list]

2. OKC and CLE are just skull crushing the NBA as they have all season. I understand the skepticism of both team but strictly on performance so far they are the clear favorites for the title.

i don't understand how anyone can be skeptical of OKC. they are putting up a historic net rating and have a clear MVP level player having a historically good year. those types of teams basically always win the title. OKC is going to win the title unless they get a major injury.

Would you take OKC over the field?

Taking a team over the field is really hard, it basically indicates a durant-warriors esque lead over the field

Granted okc record/point differential is around the same as the peak durant warriors so we will see

[Texas Chuck]

Lebron is a PG, basically always has been. Some people just refuse to label big players as PG's(except Magic for some reason). Others foolishly determine position by whom they defend which makes even less sense in a PNR league where every team switches everything.

We never talk about Pippen as a PG either except for his late career stint in Portland, but he was as well.

[Special_Puppy]

Why didn’t more teams trade for Butler? Warriors didn’t really give up much and he only wanted a 2 year deal

[f4p]

[list=][/list]

2. OKC and CLE are just skull crushing the NBA as they have all season. I understand the skepticism of both team but strictly on performance so far they are the clear favorites for the title.

i don't understand how anyone can be skeptical of OKC. they are putting up a historic net rating and have a clear MVP level player having a historically good year. those types of teams basically always win the title. OKC is going to win the title unless they get a major injury.

Would you take OKC over the field?

If you could guarantee me Shai/Holmgren/Williams are healthy, then yes. They are +175 right now which seems right when you have to factor in injuries (even the 2017 warriors were I think barely above +100 at the beginning of the season even though they were basically the most 100% "if healthy" team ever, which shows how much injuries have to be considered). I mean you could convince me the Celtics just go bonkers on 3s from white and Pritchard and beat them but that's about it.

[f4p]

Why didn’t more teams trade for Butler? Warriors didn’t really give up much and he only wanted a 2 year deal

Because steph is this generation's Duncan and is never allowed to play with less than 2 prime hall of famers would be my guess. Butler is just perfect from a "high IQ passing forward who plays defense" perspective like Iggy and dray, except he can also score 30 and get to the line. It was so weird how everyone acted like Butler forgot how to play just because he wanted 2 years of money.

[ball_takes23]

Why didn’t more teams trade for Butler? Warriors didn’t really give up much and he only wanted a 2 year deal

Because steph is this generation's Duncan and is never allowed to play with less than 2 prime hall of famers would be my guess. Butler is just perfect from a "high IQ passing forward who plays defense" perspective like Iggy and dray, except he can also score 30 and get to the line. It was so weird how everyone acted like Butler forgot how to play just because he wanted 2 years of money.

Steph has arguably the best ring of this decade, and its been like 6 years since he's even played with one prime HOFer much less 2. Bron and KD have easily played more years with prime HOFers than Steph has.

[AEnigma]

Hilarious that now we are claiming Draymond was not still in his prime in 2022.

[ball_takes23]

Hilarious that now we are claiming Draymond was not still in his prime in 2022.

whats even more hilarious is claiming that a 35 yr old Butler still is in his prime.

[70sFan]

Why didn’t more teams trade for Butler? Warriors didn’t really give up much and he only wanted a 2 year deal

Because steph is this generation's Duncan and is never allowed to play with less than 2 prime hall of famers would be my guess. Butler is just perfect from a "high IQ passing forward who plays defense" perspective like Iggy and dray, except he can also score 30 and get to the line. It was so weird how everyone acted like Butler forgot how to play just because he wanted 2 years of money.

Cute hidden shot at Duncan, such a shame it's wrong.