What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

[Godymas]

it is impossible to be the “GOAT” without a single all defense team.

[playa-hater]

I really don't know Denver's short and long-term Cap situation, but getting Joker a legit teammate (one above Murray/Porter/Gordon etc) to help get him more titles as it seems a requirement. would help. I also don't see how Joker wouldn't finish top 2 in MVPs in the next 3 or 4 years and perhaps winning at least one.

As I stated already Joker's game doesn't rely on athletic ability and may actually maintain this unreal dominance for much longer.

[Beethoven]

Sorry he will never surpass LeBron.

[TheGeneral99]

Sorry he will never surpass LeBron.

If Jokic wins 2 more MVPs, 2 more championships and 2 more FMVPs and finishes top 5 in points, assists and rebounds when it's all said and done, would he surpass Lebron?

[TheGeneral99]

it is impossible to be the “GOAT” without a single all defense team.

If he wins MVPs and championships while posting record breaking offensive seasons, what does it matter?

Wayne Gretzky is considered the GOAT hockey player of all-time and he wasn't known for being a great defensive player, but his offense was so dominant and he shattered pretty much every record in the book, it didn't matter.

[tsherkin]

it is impossible to be the “GOAT” without a single all defense team.

If he wins MVPs and championships while posting record breaking offensive seasons, what does it matter?

Wayne Gretzky is considered the GOAT hockey player of all-time and he wasn't known for being a great defensive player, but his offense was so dominant and he shattered pretty much every record in the book, it didn't matter.

And Russell wasn't a particularly stunning offensive player in the 60s, but he shut the league down for basically a decade with his defense. Primarily one-sided dominant play which wins will matter.

[JustBuzzin]

Nothing.

He's already entering that end of prime stage and only has 1 championship. Unless he's demanding a trade to a real contender I don't see many championships in his future.

Also do you guys realize LeBron is setting a new record everytime he makes a shot. The current scoring leader of all-time is showing no signs of slowing down as a player.

[DaddyCool19]

Would people rank him in the top 5 if he won 2 more rings and 2 more MVPs? I think the GOAT train has sailed.

[TheGeneral99]

Nothing.

He's already entering that end of prime stage and only has 1 championship. Unless he's demanding a trade to a real contender I don't see many championships in his future.

Also do you guys realize LeBron is setting a new record everytime he makes a shot. The current scoring leader of all-time is showing no signs of slowing down as a player.

How is he entering that end of prime stage?

He literally just turned 30 and he has a game that doesn't rely on supreme athleticism, jumping, explosiveness, shiftiness etc. His style of play will be effective for a long time.

He's also an iron man that rarely misses games due to injury. He has never played fewer than 69 games in a season. Last season he played 79 games, in 2022 he played 74 games, in 2021 he played all 72 games in a shortened season, in 2020 he played almost every game in a shortened season, in 2019 he played 80 games.

Jokic easily has another 5-6 MVP level seasons in him and will likely be an all-star caliber well into his late 30s.

[NZB2323]

If you care about longevity, defense, and championships, I don’t know how you could have Jokic 1st. The highest I could see him finishing is 4th.

[playa-hater]

it is impossible to be the “GOAT” without a single all defense team.

As a rule I would agree, and yet there are exceptions to every rule..

[Sixers in 4]

Nothing he doesn't have the rings and there are at least ten players above him who are better. I get it the NBA audience skews young and most weren't even alive when Jordan played but just because something is new doesn't make it the best ever.

[Bobbymcgee]

Join Luka on the Lakers.

[Godymas]

it is impossible to be the “GOAT” without a single all defense team.

If he wins MVPs and championships while posting record breaking offensive seasons, what does it matter?

Wayne Gretzky is considered the GOAT hockey player of all-time and he wasn't known for being a great defensive player, but his offense was so dominant and he shattered pretty much every record in the book, it didn't matter.

i know nothing about hockey other than Ovechkin will soon break Gretzky's scoring record, but I would imagine that the comparison here is not a good one in terms of how the sports are played where Hockey games are usually single digit scores and the transition across the ice looks way different in the NBA where defense and offense are much more clearly choreographed

Regardless, you look at the unanimous top 3 of all time in LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan and all 3 had major stretches of their careers where they were the best defensive player on the planet while ALSO being the best offensive player on the planet (less so for Kareem, but he was good enough to be 1st team in his early prime and was obviously an elite shot blocker).

And once you get past that criteria there still remains the obvious elephant in the room which is the sheer winning and longevity that all 3 of those guys had which Jokic has yet to get to.

[Larry_Russell]

Honestly

A DPOY
a few scoring titles
another MVP
4 more titles

That puts him in the conversation of GOAT.

[JustBuzzin]

Nothing.

He's already entering that end of prime stage and only has 1 championship. Unless he's demanding a trade to a real contender I don't see many championships in his future.

Also do you guys realize LeBron is setting a new record everytime he makes a shot. The current scoring leader of all-time is showing no signs of slowing down as a player.

How is he entering that end of prime stage?

He literally just turned 30 and he has a game that doesn't rely on supreme athleticism, jumping, explosiveness, shiftiness etc. His style of play will be effective for a long time.

He's also an iron man that rarely misses games due to injury. He has never played fewer than 69 games in a season. Last season he played 79 games, in 2022 he played 74 games, in 2021 he played all 72 games in a shortened season, in 2020 he played almost every game in a shortened season, in 2019 he played 80 games.

Jokic easily has another 5-6 MVP level seasons in him and will likely be an all-star caliber well into his late 30s.

Well if he wins another 4-5 MVP's and another 3-4 championships then I think he has a legit argument for GOAT.

The problem is people live in the now and will assume the best for said player. It's like when the Nuggets won a championship and you had people legit saying they would be the next dynasty. It doesn't always work in your favor.

Look Jokic is great, but GOAT at this stage of his career is not even a conversation. He has to win some more championships to get that conversation really going.

[Larry_Russell]

it is impossible to be the “GOAT” without a single all defense team.

If he wins MVPs and championships while posting record breaking offensive seasons, what does it matter?

Wayne Gretzky is considered the GOAT hockey player of all-time and he wasn't known for being a great defensive player, but his offense was so dominant and he shattered pretty much every record in the book, it didn't matter.

i know nothing about hockey other than Ovechkin will soon break Gretzky's scoring record, but I would imagine that the comparison here is not a good one in terms of how the sports are played where Hockey games are usually single digit scores and the transition across the ice looks way different in the NBA where defense and offense are much more clearly choreographed

Regardless, you look at the unanimous top 3 of all time in LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan and all 3 had major stretches of their careers where they were the best defensive player on the planet while ALSO being the best offensive player on the planet (less so for Kareem, but he was good enough to be 1st team in his early prime and was obviously an elite shot blocker).

And once you get past that criteria there still remains the obvious elephant in the room which is the sheer winning and longevity that all 3 of those guys had which Jokic has yet to get to.

Its hard to compare Hockey and Basketball. 2 different animals. Rarely is a player a monster on both sides of the ice so to speak.

And Hockey is a bruiser sport, Wayne is was a finesse player. Very finesse. You dont send that guy out forechecking.

Ovechkin, great for him. 8 games to score 8 goals to TIE Gretzky. Alex currently sitting at 1600 career points good for 11th on the alltime list. 41 points behind Sakic, 64 behind Crosby.

1257 behind Wayne.

If we are using Wayne as a comparison for Jokic, then Jokic has a long ways to go. Wayne was so far ahead of the competition when he was playing that no one could dispute at all about his brilliance and greatness.

Jokic there is a debate year after year about who is better than him. On any given season there is a debate of 4 or 5 guys as being superior.

Jokic has never once led the league in ppg, rpg, apg, fg%, 3pt%, only in advanced stats is he a league best.
Jokic's career best WS was bettered 8 times in just the past 20 years (jordan beat it 8 times as the league best)
Jokics career best OWS was bettered 9 times in the past 20 years (Jordan beat it 7 times)
Jokics career best WS/48, only surpassed 3 times in last 20 years.
Jokics career best VORP was only beat 1 time in last 20 years.

SO in an era of maximizing analytics and maximizing efficiency even Jokics advanced numbers arent crazy when stacked against the last 20 years.

[BodieB]

Not possible. Even if he somehow gets stats and accolades, he's not a captivating enough personality to get that title. Same problem with Kareem.

[therealbig3]

The thing is, peak LeBron was better, pretty clearly imo. He was a comparable if not better offensive player and was just much better defensively. And he has the greatest longevity for any superstar ever. So Jokic to make up for that would have to what, have like 5-6 more MVP level seasons than LeBron did? How realistic is that?

[Larry_Russell]

Nothing.

He's already entering that end of prime stage and only has 1 championship. Unless he's demanding a trade to a real contender I don't see many championships in his future.

Also do you guys realize LeBron is setting a new record everytime he makes a shot. The current scoring leader of all-time is showing no signs of slowing down as a player.

How is he entering that end of prime stage?

He literally just turned 30 and he has a game that doesn't rely on supreme athleticism, jumping, explosiveness, shiftiness etc. His style of play will be effective for a long time.

He's also an iron man that rarely misses games due to injury. He has never played fewer than 69 games in a season. Last season he played 79 games, in 2022 he played 74 games, in 2021 he played all 72 games in a shortened season, in 2020 he played almost every game in a shortened season, in 2019 he played 80 games.

Jokic easily has another 5-6 MVP level seasons in him and will likely be an all-star caliber well into his late 30s.

Well if he wins another 4-5 MVP's and another 3-4 championships then I think he has a legit argument for GOAT.

The problem is people live in the now and will assume the best for said player. It's like when the Nuggets won a championship and you had people legit saying they would be the next dynasty. It doesn't always work in your favor.

Look Jokic is great, but GOAT at this stage of his career is not even a conversation. He has to win some more championships to get that conversation really going.

I do think he has a legit case to be considered the most skilled center of all time.

FOr me that was always Hakeem, and it might still be, not because Hakeem was as non positional as Jokic, but because he was also a monster defensively.

And because We can make a legit debate that Hakeem, or Shaq, or Kareem, or a few other centers of the past are better than Jokic means he isnt in the goat debate at this time. You have to be the undisputed best of all time at your position to be in the conversation as a goat.

Same reason why Magic and Bird are not in those Convos, they are not clearly the best at their positions of all time.