KD vs Jimmy as an offensive generator

[Onus]

Am I crazy or is Jimmy a better offensive engine than KD for team offense?

KD is a better scorer/finisher, but I feel like Jimmy is able to run an offense and generate team offense better than KD did.

[TB]

Ya, I think Jimmy is a better offensive engine (playmaker, primary ball-handler, running a team offense, etc).

But the gap between Jimmy and KD at that is not as large as the gap from KD to Jimmy as a scorer. And thats not a knock on Jimmy, its just that KD is an all-time great bucket getter. Not to mention its an era that KD’s shooting ability pushes him even further ahead. So if i’m starting a team i’m taking KD every time and building the right pieces around that.

That being said, building around either is something any team would want. And put either next to Steph in their prime and they become a title favorite.

[HiRez]

You're not wrong, but it's basically just saying they're different players, which they are. But what's better than Durant or Butler? Durant AND Butler! Hard to see how it could happen (financially, among other things), but who knows...KD has to realize he isn't going to get many more shots at a championship, if that's something he wants.

That said, if Steph & Jimmy stay healthy, they already look pretty good and can make some moves in the offseason to optimize the role-players. Obviously Kuminga's future is still up in the air. Podz looks better lately but is he returning to normal after a slump, or is this a nice run and the slump is closer to his baseline? Hield is weird, he can look amazing and he can look like one of the worst players in the league...can we trust him in a playoff series? GP2 has been great lately but it feels like he's always an awkward landing away from being back on the shelf for months. Moody and Post are looking really solid, I wouldn't move either of them.

[EvanZ]

Am I crazy or is Jimmy a better offensive engine than KD for team offense?

KD is a better scorer/finisher, but I feel like Jimmy is able to run an offense and generate team offense better than KD did.

He’s basically Iggy with a threat of scoring on offense. He’s not Iggy on d but in spurts he can emulate him and he’s way way better off ball than Wiggins.

[Onus]

But the gap between Jimmy and KD at that is not as large as the gap from KD to Jimmy as a scorer. And thats not a knock on Jimmy, its just that KD is an all-time great bucket getter.

We haven't even seen playoff Jimmy yet and if the legend is true, it becomes a lot closer scoring wise.

I feel like playoff scoring though is so dependent on matchups and schemes that I'm not really sure how I want to reconcile that especially since it hasn't happened for us yet.

[floppymoose]

If playoff Jimmy means more scoring, i’m not even sure i want to see it. I’d rather he stay the course and be the ultimate glue guy. I think the team offensive efficiency will be higher that way.

[Onus]

If playoff Jimmy means more scoring, i’m not even sure i want to see it. I’d rather he stay the course and be the ultimate glue guy. I think the team offensive efficiency will be higher that way.

I don't think it means he will increase his scoring but that he hopefully can when the offense eventually stalls as it does in the playoffs.

[Coxy]

Yes of course he is.

[DAWill1128]

Thing about Durant is he doesn't see the floor well as a passer. Durant doesn't get guys easy buckets. He's really good at shooting over the top of guys, and he has a good enough handle to get to his spots.

Durant has to play with someone who can get downhill, and has floor vision, can pass like prime Westbrook and Harden were. Some of the issue in Phoenix is Booker and Beal are both smaller quick scoring guards but neither faciliates an offense. None of the three guys faciliate an offense.

[cpower]

scoring as individual is overrated. Let's say KD scores 30 a game on 63%TS ~ 48 FGA...Jimmy scores 20 a game on 58%TS ~ 34 FGA....that 10 points and 5%TS is very very small gap if you talking about one entire game ~ 115 pts.

Butler definitely provides a lot more playmaking, and I consider him a better offensive player right now. KD has regressed massively for the past years as playmaker

[TrueFan420]

KD is better at generating offense no matter how you shake it. He’s an all time level scorer. Truly one of a kind. Having said that, KD and Jimmy have contrasting styles offensively. There’s something to be said that Jimmy’s style is more useful for the rest of the team at this moment than KDs style. KD will get a bucket at any pace and within or outside of any system. Jimmy will force us to slow down at times which has shown to be beneficial so far. Regardless, we’re lucky to have had either let alone both play for us. Now let’s just hope Jimmy can stay healthy.

[floppymoose]

KD is the ultimate bailout machine offensively. Hey, nothing is working, throw KD the ball. His efficiency in that scenario is all-world.

Jimmy is more of a "i will juice the team offensive efficiency in general". He's not a huge bailout guy (though he's above average at that), but you will have fewer plays where you need someone to bail you out when Jimmy is out there.

[Upperclass]

Jimmy is a smarter player who has to use his hoopIQ to fit into or run offenses.. KD uses his basketball talent. The Warriors value the former but KD's talent level was so high everything else didnt matter.

[warriorschamps]

They are both great at different things. KD is an all time great scorer. Jimmy obviously isn't as great a scorer as KD, not a knock on Jimmy, it's just KD in his prime and even know is an all time great scorer.

Jimmy runs a team offense better than KD, reads the floor very well, almost like a great point guard.

Which help a team more? I think it depend on the team honestly. I think if your team has other great scorers Jimmy would be the guy you want. If your team has a great point guard that runs the offense then KD is probably the guy you want.

With the Warriors either will work because Steph is a great scorer which will allow Jimmy to thrive as an all around play maker. And yet both Steph and Draymond also can run an offense effectively which would allow KD to thrive as a scorer.

And that's exactly what we've seen. But Jimmy and KD have thrived playing here despite somewhat different styles of play.

I do think if you switch KD out of Phoenix and put Jimmy on the Suns with Booker and Beal as scorers they are a better team. Jimmy is almost like Scottie Pippen. A guy that can do a little bit of just about everything at high level but isn't the best at anything. And we saw how important that was for Jordan and the Bulls. As great a scorer and player as Jordan was they weren't going to win any championships and certainly not six unless they replaced Pippen with a great point guard and added another top defender. Pippen was basically both of those things in one. Sort of like Jimmy can be when he is focused and locked in.

[cpower]

KD is better at generating offense no matter how you shake it. He’s an all time level scorer. Truly one of a kind. Having said that, KD and Jimmy have contrasting styles offensively. There’s something to be said that Jimmy’s style is more useful for the rest of the team at this moment than KDs style. KD will get a bucket at any pace and within or outside of any system. Jimmy will force us to slow down at times which has shown to be beneficial so far. Regardless, we’re lucky to have had either let alone both play for us. Now let’s just hope Jimmy can stay healthy.

generating offense AND all time level scorer are completely different things. Adrian Dantley is all time level scorer (3100 TS added for his career vs KD's 3400) but nobody is considering him all time great offensive player

[vvoland]

This was not a conversation even 2 years ago and that was when butler was dragging bad miami teams to the finals, almost singlehandedly (shoutout to Bam).

Kevin Durant is a top 5 offensive player in the history of basketball. He's a walking top 10 offense in any given season. Even this year, with the dumpster fire that is phoenix, they are 9th in ORtg. Jimmy is looking like the keystone for us and the argument that, for this team, at their respective ages, Butler is a better fit, is a rational one.

In a vacuum, for your average team A, it is not particularly close - as a generator of offense KD is second to none and only players like Steph, MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, etc. can enter the conversation.. When you add in the defense, availability, leadership, and intangibles, however, it becomes a much closer conversation than the average fan would assume.

[AirP.]

Butler generates 5 less points per game then KD but takes 7 less shots to do that. Tossing in Curry too.

Code: Select all

+-------------+-----+----+---------+----+----+---+---------+---------------+
|Player       |Games|Team|Total Pts|PPG |FGA |APG|Ast'd PPG|ppg + Ast'd ppg|
+-------------+-----+----+---------+----+----+---+---------+---------------+
|Stephen Curry|56   |GSW |1373     |24.5|18  |6.1|14.23    |38.75          |
|Kevin Durant |52   |PHO |1401     |26.9|18.5|4.3|10.25    |37.19          |
|Jimmy Butler |13   |GSW |229      |17.6|11.5|5.7|14.85    |32.46          |
|Jimmy Butler |25   |MIA |426      |17  |10.5|4.8|12.64    |29.68          |
+-------------+-----+----+---------+----+----+---+---------+---------------+


[Nvnervous45]

Great topic of conversation. I think kd in his prime was better than butler in his prime. That said right now I'd rather have butler over kd.
Butler is hungrier for a title than kd. Butler is all-in, all the time and does what it takes to win.
I think after 2 titles, a torn Achilles, and much criticism for joining a super team kd has become complacent. He wants to win but only in a place where he is comfortable and free from criticism from players, teammates, fans or the media.
Jimmy is a natural born killer and doesn't care about the "noise" around him, he just wants to win.

[TrueFan420]

KD is better at generating offense no matter how you shake it. He’s an all time level scorer. Truly one of a kind. Having said that, KD and Jimmy have contrasting styles offensively. There’s something to be said that Jimmy’s style is more useful for the rest of the team at this moment than KDs style. KD will get a bucket at any pace and within or outside of any system. Jimmy will force us to slow down at times which has shown to be beneficial so far. Regardless, we’re lucky to have had either let alone both play for us. Now let’s just hope Jimmy can stay healthy.

generating offense AND all time level scorer are completely different things. Adrian Dantley is all time level scorer (3100 TS added for his career vs KD's 3400) but nobody is considering him all time great offensive player

Generating offense is generating offense, doesnt become less points whether it’s generating for oneself or another. An all time scorer is generating offense. Their games are different and that’s the point/discussion.

[SpreeS]

What Butler did with Miami (two finals and ECF), KD had never done. Butler with Miami had no business to be in the Finals. He is better all around player than KD at the moment and in last 5 years.

Butler won 7 PO series w/o HC advantage and lost 2 PO series with HC advantage
Durant (excl GSW) won 2 PO series w/o HC advantage and lost 3 PO series with HC advantage