What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

DonaldSanders · Post #81 » by **DonaldSanders** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:01 pm

70sFan wrote:
Russell's case is more straightforward than any other player's though - he's the most dominant, most consistent, most successful, most impactful basketball player with basically perfect resume. I don't see any way to put Jordan higher than him, unless you want to be really harsh on his era (but then I don't see any reason to put Jordan over modern players as well).

The main argument is the fewer teams playing during his era, which raises the chance of success.

His first 4 championship there were only 8 teams and he only had to win 2 playoff series.
Then 5 with 9 teams, still only 2 playoff series to win.
Then 2 with 10 teams, 3 playoff series.

Jordan played in league with 28+ teams and always 4 playoff rounds. It's just lower odds of winning.

bledredwine · Post #82 » by **bledredwine** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:03 pm

Be better than Michael Jordan

Spoilers (he isn’t)

Lalouie · Post #83 » by **Lalouie** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:13 pm

4more rings

Nate505 · Post #84 » by **Nate505** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:19 pm

He needs to win more Championships. That said, the fact he won one will probably put him in that Top 12 discussion, and it's not like any player in that discussion is some sort of scrub.

Like to me here is probably the consensus Top 12, though I get "consensus" is a stretch when it comes to this stuff:

Jordan
Lebron
KAJ
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Curry
Hakeem
Kobe

If Jokic makes this list a Top 13 where people have a hard time mentioning most of these names without him, that's pretty damn elite company he's in.

To me there's a bit of a dividing line between Jordan/Lebron/KAJ and the rest. Not much of one, but one. Can Jokic get to that level? He needs to win more than one championship to do it. Preferably something like 3 at least.

AleksandarN · Post #85 » by **AleksandarN** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:37 pm

Sgt Major wrote:Turn back the time and stop MJ from being born.

It's impossible, MJ is the GOAT of all sports all time and these discussions are pointless.

MJ is the nba goat. But not of all sports not even close.

AleksandarN · Post #86 » by **AleksandarN** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:38 pm

OriginalRed wrote:Win more titles. Like, that's it lol.

Like 10. Then yes. Not going to happen

Post #87 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:44 pm

Johnny Tomala wrote:
How the hell you didn't mention Wilt but mentioned Curry? Wilt is top 5 all-time, Curry is not in top 10.

Because, in your haste to come and complain at me, you didn't read what I wrote. I wasn't considering Curry top 10, nor did I mention everyone therein.

70sFan · Post #88 » by **70sFan** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:04 am

DonaldSanders wrote:The main argument is the fewer teams playing during his era, which raises the chance of success.

Does it raise it to the point when one players wins 11 rings out of his 12 healthy seasons?

His first 4 championship there were only 8 teams and he only had to win 2 playoff series.
Then 5 with 9 teams, still only 2 playoff series to win.
Then 2 with 10 teams, 3 playoff series.

You are wrong, the league had 12 teams in 1968 and 14 teams in 1969.

Jordan played in league with 28+ teams and always 4 playoff rounds. It's just lower odds of winning.

Jordan won his first 3 titles in 27 teams league, so you are wrong again.

I still see no reason to claim that winning twice as many titles in fewer years is somehow less impressive because of fewer teams. Most teams in the league don't compete for the title anyway. Besides, the league went from 8 to 14 teams throughout Russell's career and it didn't made him stop winning.

70sFan · Post #89 » by **70sFan** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:05 am

bledredwine wrote:Be better than Michael Jordan

Spoilers (he isn’t)

That still wouldn't put him above Russell.

MrBigShot · Post #90 » by **MrBigShot** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:16 am

Bare minimum 4 rings to even get into the conversation

DonaldSanders · Post #91 » by **DonaldSanders** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:20 am

70sFan wrote:
DonaldSanders wrote:The main argument is the fewer teams playing during his era, which raises the chance of success.

Does it raise it to the point when one players wins 11 rings out of his 12 healthy seasons?

His first 4 championship there were only 8 teams and he only had to win 2 playoff series.
Then 5 with 9 teams, still only 2 playoff series to win.
Then 2 with 10 teams, 3 playoff series.

You are wrong, the league had 12 teams in 1968 and 14 teams in 1969.

Jordan played in league with 28+ teams and always 4 playoff rounds. It's just lower odds of winning.

Jordan won his first 3 titles in 27 teams league, so you are wrong again.

I still see no reason to claim that winning twice as many titles in fewer years is somehow less impressive because of fewer teams. Most teams in the league don't compete for the title anyway. Besides, the league went from 8 to 14 teams throughout Russell's career and it didn't made him stop winning.

Thanks for the corrections, I did that pretty quickly and mis-counted, it was a lot of years to scan through!

And it's fine to disagree on the # of teams thing, I just thought I'd present the argument since I a lot of people don't realize that 7 of his rings he only had to win 2 playoffs series in 8-9 team leagues. Personally I find it a fairly compelling argument statistically that it was easier to win in a league with fewer teams. If each team had an equal chance, it would be 1/8 or 1/9 vs. 1/27 or 1/28 in Jordan's earlier years.

I do rate Bill in my top 5 so I'm not here to disparage him, and I think he does have a one of the best GOAT arguments. I respect anyone that does think Bill is the GOAT. But I do think the smaller number of teams helped Boston win more, especially with a smart guy like Red being a GM that was ahead of everyone else. Stack your team, fewer competitors, fewer chances to get eliminated.

Peregrine01 · Post #92 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:40 am

In these discussions, it’s hard for me to even consider guys from the 60s. The game was just so different then that it might as well be a different sport.

MavsDirk41 · Post #93 » by **MavsDirk41** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:43 am

6 championships, 6 finals mvps, 5 league mvps, 9 all defensive teams, one defensive player of the year, 2 three peats, 10 scoring titles, 4 60 win seasons, and 1 70 win season. That bar is pretty high so he would have to get close to what Jordan did to even be in the conversation.

Warspite · Post #94 » by **Warspite** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:51 am

Move to the Lakers.
Win more rings with the lakers
Do more commercials.
sell more shoes/media

Warspite · Post #95 » by **Warspite** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 1:05 am

Peregrine01 wrote:In these discussions, it’s hard for me to even consider guys from the 60s. The game was just so different then that it might as well be a different sport.

In these discussions, it's hard for me to even consider guys from today. The game is just so different that it might as well be a different sport.

Maybe just maybe instead of throwing out the 1st 60 years of the NBA, we consider the last 10 years as the lost era and put in on the same level as the ABA.

Peregrine01 · Post #96 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 1:10 am

Warspite wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:In these discussions, it’s hard for me to even consider guys from the 60s. The game was just so different then that it might as well be a different sport.

In these discussions, it's hard for me to even consider guys from today. The game is just so different that it might as well be a different sport.

Maybe just maybe instead of throwing out the 1st 60 years of the NBA, we consider the last 10 years as the lost era and put in on the same level as the ABA.

Not even trying to argue whether one era is better than the other. Just saying that it’s so different that it makes comparison meaningless in my view.

Handlez · Post #97 » by **Handlez** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 2:01 am

Play a game while riding one of his horses and get a triple double.

RoyceDa59 · Post #98 » by **RoyceDa59** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 2:04 am

He needs to win at least three more championships and another decade of 30/10/10 MVP level play.

playa-hater · Post #99 » by **playa-hater** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:37 am

It seems like many people measure greatness with the amount of accolades a player achieves. But sometimes accolades are achieved because a player has a far superior team. When I judge a player I do my best to try to evaluate the actual individual abilities and how it affects the game concerning winning And losing.

Judging my way is far more eye test related than any numeric or analytic Evaluation. Which means it is far more subjective and less scientific. With that being said it's just hard for me to imagine somebody lifting a team up and the individual teammates as much as the joker has in recent years.

70sFan · Post #100 » by **70sFan** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 7:59 am

Peregrine01 wrote:In these discussions, it’s hard for me to even consider guys from the 60s. The game was just so different then that it might as well be a different sport.

Guys from the 1960s played a game that was significantly closer to the 1980s in terms of styles, strategies and skillsets required than 2020s basketball. I still don't understand why people pretend that 1980s basketball is "modern", if you turn on 1965 game it would look quite similar to 1985 game, outside of black and white tape.