Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[junot111]

Ah, here we go, the Scottie slander thread. It was inevitable with zero patience fans who love to tear players down and require instant gratification, 'what have you done for me lately? wah!'

Scottie has been playing with a hand contusion and bum ankle and has never been asked nor played like this prior in his life, being the #1 main guy. This is all new for Scottie. But this is also old news: we learned this when we drafted him; that he needed to develop a jump shot, mid-range game and three point shot. The fact that his mid-range has come this far so soon is really impressive. Plus of course, Scottie was practically shooting lights out from three at the start of the '23-'24 season. We've seen him shoot well and it's inevitable that someone so talented can get back to that standard through more hard work and developing further this summer.

Scottie isn't a finished product yet. He still needs to develop as he's nowhere near his ceiling.

Regardless, he really has to work his ass off this summer (improve the footwork, develop more of a bag and continue improving that handle).

However, this was the point of this season: to experiment, play outside of their comfort zones and develop, while racking up the Ls.

Nonetheless, this kind of nuance is often just tossed aside and not considered, ie "excuses! wah!" and sports fans in general tend to be overly reactionary and negative to such an extent that they end up digging their own hole:

Is Shai a little overrated?
He’s the primary option, and still doesn’t seem to have made any improvements in his game and is still pretty passive. I think everyone just needs to be realistic about him. At best, he’s a third option on a championship team. But I don’t think you build the whole enchilada around him when Baze and Dort are outplaying him most nights.

I realize that’s going to be unpopular, but I think it’s gotta become a realization. He’s a good player, but not this franchise-altering guy

I think we can all agree we shouldnt be planning on him being the primary option in the future but he will be a big piece for us and could possibly be a second option. He can come off as a little overrated i guess cause hes our best player and we stan him so much.

Yeah I’m not saying he isn’t part of the puzzle, but people don’t need to act like he’s going to be the savior. He’s not. He’s a secondary option to whoever we draft

He's currently and 18/6 type of guy. We need him to be a 24/8 type guy. Sometimes I feel he's on track and sometimes I feel he's not going to be that guy. Hard to get a read. Fringe All star potential I think. I don't think he'll be superstar level.

That being said, he's not a KD, Harden, Luka type scorer, and probably never will be. The player that I think of most when I watch Shai is Ginobili. Crafty, below the rim playmaker with good court awareness. Capable on a given night of being the best player on the floor. That's probably his ceiling. And if it is (and if he gets there) holy ****, that's incredible. That's a huge piece in building a contending team.

The truth is that even if we hit big on the next couple drafts we're probably still going to be 2-4 years from being a contender.

I like Shai but I still believe Bazley is the player with the most potential. The offense needs to flow through him a little more.Bazley kept us in the game today until later in the 3rd and 4th quarter. The team is still figuring out the dynamics of the offense but Bazley needs to at least be the 2nd option.

link

The level of cope is hilarious. First it was FVV and Siakam's pecking order holding him back. Now it's because he's forced to do too much?

[Kingsway_fan]

My sense is they will see how the new starting five play half way into next season before considering any major changes...

Depends also on who they draft this year...

Wonder if they extend Yak this summer?

[Prestige]

Barnes is a placeholder until we get or draft a ‘franchise player’.

[Senbonzakura]

his best role was when he was the 4th/5th option.

This is pretty grim if this is true. Because the Raptors treat him like he's the 1st option, the face of the franchise.

I warned you lot about this ages ago here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2393347

He's not a superstar talent. He can barely score 20 ppg efficiently yet some of you think he can be a 1A on a championship team. Wake tf up.

[And1+2]

I never saw Barnes as that guy, but I still see him as a major contributor on a Championship team.

He is a great player to have on your team, fingers crossed he fits a timeline here that brings us back another chip.

[Shakril]

I think y'all are missing the big picture.

If we were relatively healthy, we would have saw it this season.

Be patient, You'll see next season.
Or sooner, if we make this seasons playoffs.

This is not about winning, but about development. even if we lose every game, Barnes should show that he improved and sadly thats barely the case.

[Shakril]

My sense is they will see how the new starting five play half way into next season before considering any major changes...

Depends also on who they draft this year...

Wonder if they extend Yak this summer?

If not, yak will be gone next year.

[tsherkin]

Scottie isn't a finished product yet. He still needs to develop as he's nowhere near his ceiling.

He's pretty close to it as a scorer, though.

Nonetheless, this kind of nuance is often just tossed aside and not considered, ie "excuses! wah!" and sports fans in general tend to be overly reactionary and negative to such an extent that they end up digging their own hole:

In the main because it IS a lot of excuses. He's had four seasons and a variety of different contexts to show us... anything, really. And apart from a shooting streak from 3 for a month or two, he hasn't really. Leastwise in the context of scoring. He's never been efficient and he hasn't really shown any indication that he's moving in the correct direction. He has, in fact, regressed in some areas which were previously positives. Everything about his development right now has been negative, pointing in the direction that he can't hack this role. Very much more not in line with a sensible arc of development where he figures it out before he's Lebron's age.

The pre-draft reports correctly assessed him, and now we have almost half a decade worth of career showcasing him as a guy who just doesn't have it in him. It is extremely conclusive now that he doesn't have the stuff to be a focal scorer. Now, we pivot and find out if, for the first time in his career, he can be competent in a supporting role on lower volume. And based on his career to date, that's a little bit of a dicey stretch, though it would be great if he could given his contract and the other skills he does bring to the table.

There is no nuance to consider here; he's just bad at this part of the game at this level. It isn't a surprise.

[ArthurVandelay]

Imo this is Scottie's best individual performance so far from 24/25 and has not had a similar performance since, he needs to get back to this level and if he does he certainly can become a legit number 1/2 option.

Watch on YouTube

He hit 5 threes that game.

His shot from then to now is night and day....sadly for the worse.

[Indeed]

I never saw Barnes as that guy, but I still see him as a major contributor on a Championship team.

He is a great player to have on your team, fingers crossed he fits a timeline here that brings us back another chip.

Yes, major contributor on a championship team like Horford, at the cost of MLE. Near max contract? He will need to do more and being more than a glue guy.

[Tripod]

Remember when FVV and Thad was getting at Barnes to get him to work harder, and we all turned on them?

We owe Thad and especially FVV an apology. I lowkey miss his pecking order... make the young fellas hungry and take the ball/your position. Watching him mentor the young players in Houston, and watching their coaching staff/vets hold their young guys accountable is making me sad/jealous.

He won ROTY and was the 1st All Star from his draft class. This notion that Barnes doesn't work hard it just dumb.

Especially considering pre-draft, he was deemed a longer term project who might take the longest to reach his potential.

[Indeed]

He's worth more money than OG simply because he can dribble the basketball and make plays.

I've seen Knicks games where they go an entire half without OG bouncing the ball a single time. Scotty takes on WAY more responsibility for the offense. But ppl tens to glorify players who take on no responsible and are relegated to shooting open shots.

Having more responsibility on offense is only useful when you can do it at a competent level. A 52.3 TS% is not competent, that's bottom 10% in the league. Your team being better offensively when you are off the floor than on it is also not showing competence either.

Here, you've articulated precisely what I've been saying for the past 3 to 4 years. And since efficiency became the most emphasized factor of player evaluation.

There is a huge fallacy that is very common imo. Efficiency is largely a function of player role in the offense. This is why ppl tend to hate on almost every top 40 player in the league who is outside say, the top 10.

You guys are seriously undervalued the players in the 15 to 40 range. And it's ALL because your interpretation of the stats let's guys like OG completely off the hook. When does OG ever take a contested shot at the end of the shot clock? When does he ever create a shot? When does he attempt half court heaves at the end of quarters?

All these things (and more) are burdens for the players who take lead roles in the offense. And that context is left out of the evaluations when you guys singularly look at efficiency numbers.

This way of evaluating players is biased AGAINST the siakams and the Haliburtons. Guys in that 15 to 40 range.

Siakam has been in the 60%TS for some time. Him adding that 3 point shot this year at 40% separate him from Barnes being both on ball and off ball.

Barrett on our team has a higher TS and higher volume. He is more our 1st / 2nd option instead of Barnes.

Barnes is really in the Anunoby role and not even efficient at it. Recent games we no longer force Quickley to do PnR with him, and the result is better, where now he is at the corner.

[And1+2]

I never saw Barnes as that guy, but I still see him as a major contributor on a Championship team.

He is a great player to have on your team, fingers crossed he fits a timeline here that brings us back another chip.

Yes, major contributor on a championship team like Horford, at the cost of MLE. Near max contract? He will need to do more and being more than a glue guy.

Yeah, fair enough. I still see him as a 1B, so his contract is justified. We just desperately need that 1A player.... (Fingers crossed it's Ingraham).

[WaltFrazier]

I think y'all are missing the big picture.

If we were relatively healthy, we would have saw it this season.

Be patient, You'll see next season.
Or sooner, if we make this seasons playoffs.

It's good to know there won't be injuries next season

[hyper316]

Having more responsibility on offense is only useful when you can do it at a competent level. A 52.3 TS% is not competent, that's bottom 10% in the league. Your team being better offensively when you are off the floor than on it is also not showing competence either.

Here, you've articulated precisely what I've been saying for the past 3 to 4 years. And since efficiency became the most emphasized factor of player evaluation.

There is a huge fallacy that is very common imo. Efficiency is largely a function of player role in the offense. This is why ppl tend to hate on almost every top 40 player in the league who is outside say, the top 10.

You guys are seriously undervalued the players in the 15 to 40 range. And it's ALL because your interpretation of the stats let's guys like OG completely off the hook. When does OG ever take a contested shot at the end of the shot clock? When does he ever create a shot? When does he attempt half court heaves at the end of quarters?

All these things (and more) are burdens for the players who take lead roles in the offense. And that context is left out of the evaluations when you guys singularly look at efficiency numbers.

This way of evaluating players is biased AGAINST the siakams and the Haliburtons. Guys in that 15 to 40 range.

Siakam has been in the 60%TS for some time. Him adding that 3 point shot this year at 40% separate him from Barnes being both on ball and off ball.

Barrett on our team has a higher TS and higher volume. He is more our 1st / 2nd option instead of Barnes.

Barnes is really in the Anunoby role and not even efficient at it. Recent games we no longer force Quickley to do PnR with him, and the result is better, where now he is at the corner.

Barnes rookie year played some time in the dunker spot and getting offensive rebound. Not a good use of his passing skills, but can mix it up with so many initiators on the team now

[PushDaRock]

He's worth more money than OG simply because he can dribble the basketball and make plays.

I've seen Knicks games where they go an entire half without OG bouncing the ball a single time. Scotty takes on WAY more responsibility for the offense. But ppl tens to glorify players who take on no responsible and are relegated to shooting open shots.

Having more responsibility on offense is only useful when you can do it at a competent level. A 52.3 TS% is not competent, that's bottom 10% in the league. Your team being better offensively when you are off the floor than on it is also not showing competence either.

Here, you've articulated precisely what I've been saying for the past 3 to 4 years. And since efficiency became the most emphasized factor of player evaluation.

There is a huge fallacy that is very common imo. Efficiency is largely a function of player role in the offense. This is why ppl tend to hate on almost every top 40 player in the league who is outside say, the top 10.

You guys are seriously undervalued the players in the 15 to 40 range. And it's ALL because your interpretation of the stats let's guys like OG completely off the hook. When does OG ever take a contested shot at the end of the shot clock? When does he ever create a shot? When does he attempt half court heaves at the end of quarters?

All these things (and more) are burdens for the players who take lead roles in the offense. And that context is left out of the evaluations when you guys singularly look at efficiency numbers.

This way of evaluating players is biased AGAINST the siakams and the Haliburtons. Guys in that 15 to 40 range.

Superstars are Superstars because they are very efficient despite needing to take all the tough shots. Then you have your Siakams who can take on that #1 option role on a half decent team, they aren't great at it and it's not their ideal role but they can do it at a competent level. These guys can usually scale down to be really good #2 options.

Then you have Scottie who isn't even the #1 option on a mediocre/bad team putting up bottom 10% efficiency numbers. What is the offensive value of someone with a high usage rate that is so inefficient scoring the ball?

[YogurtProducer]

He is miscast right now - his best role was when he was the 4th/5th option on offense like he was when Nurse was still here.

Next year with Brandon Ingram and Quickley healthy and playing he will slot back more naturally into his correct role.

Turns out, Nurse and co were right about him. Hell of a player, just not in a flashy or typical way.

If his best role is as a 4th/5th option then his contract might end up being a massive overpayment.

Depends - was Draymond Green overpaid? Or Gobert?

[mulamutti]

I'll be honest, i never, saw him as more than a Vince Carter level player. i.e. crazy talent, doesn't seem to have the win-at-all-costs, and lead the team mentality that the top-10 players in the league have. Basically top 10 type talent, but more like 20-30 level player. So if he leads the raptors, he will lead them to 1st round victories, maybe an odd 2nd round. He can be the second best player in an elite team, but he needs a batman.

[Tripod]

Having more responsibility on offense is only useful when you can do it at a competent level. A 52.3 TS% is not competent, that's bottom 10% in the league. Your team being better offensively when you are off the floor than on it is also not showing competence either.

Here, you've articulated precisely what I've been saying for the past 3 to 4 years. And since efficiency became the most emphasized factor of player evaluation.

There is a huge fallacy that is very common imo. Efficiency is largely a function of player role in the offense. This is why ppl tend to hate on almost every top 40 player in the league who is outside say, the top 10.

You guys are seriously undervalued the players in the 15 to 40 range. And it's ALL because your interpretation of the stats let's guys like OG completely off the hook. When does OG ever take a contested shot at the end of the shot clock? When does he ever create a shot? When does he attempt half court heaves at the end of quarters?

All these things (and more) are burdens for the players who take lead roles in the offense. And that context is left out of the evaluations when you guys singularly look at efficiency numbers.

This way of evaluating players is biased AGAINST the siakams and the Haliburtons. Guys in that 15 to 40 range.

Siakam has been in the 60%TS for some time. Him adding that 3 point shot this year at 40% separate him from Barnes being both on ball and off ball.

Barrett on our team has a higher TS and higher volume. He is more our 1st / 2nd option instead of Barnes.

Barnes is really in the Anunoby role and not even efficient at it. Recent games we no longer force Quickley to do PnR with him, and the result is better, where now he is at the corner.

How did Siakam get better?

I thought guys are finished products at age 23 and we can talk in absolutes about their future.

Weird.

[tsherkin]

I thought guys are finished products at age 23 and we can talk in absolutes about their future.

Weird.

So, fun facts...

Siakam's first season at or above league-average efficiency was in 2019, his third season. 112 TS+, 62.8% TS on 16.9 ppg as he won the MIP.

He'd established his ability to score in at least a supporting role already. He even shot 36.9% from 3 on 2.7 3PA/g over 80 games that season, and shot 60.2% inside the arc. He shot 44.8% from 16-23 feet as a rookie, and has flashed that shot (albeit with some inconsistency, especially as his usage dipped) his entire career so far. More importantly, he's had a strong post game and mid-range jumper from the word "go," coupled to a very clear arc of improvement in his ability to draw fouls. He's been pretty successful on the corner 3 most of his career to date. There's also a HUGE improvement in his FT shooting starting in his 3rd season.

He struggled with us as we asked him to support more volume and more iso creation. He went to Indiana, and Haliburton is making his life way easier. As a Raptor, he enjoyed 41.8% of his buckets being assisted inside the arc. With Indy, it's 53.9%. From 3, 85.4% in Toronto and 97.3% with the Pacers.

Context matters.

So as far as the snipe at criticism over Scottie, Pascal was showcasing the skills from the word go. Skills which we have not seen from Scottie, nor have we seen anything close to the same kind of developmental arc, nor the same kind of success in a lesser role.

Not really comparable scenarios.