Is it time to replace refs with AI?

Patches Perry · Post #61 » by **Patches Perry** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:14 pm

It's exceptionally hard to get fouls right, and in some cases we can all look at the same slowed down replay frame by frame and come away with different conclusions. AI isn't magic. It couldn't solve for these problems. Not yet at least, and not for a long while.

I think introducing some form of AI for out of bounds, goaltending and more black and white things like that could be a good way to introduce AI into the mix.

1993Playoffs · Post #62 » by **1993Playoffs** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:15 pm

It will eventually

itrsteve · Post #63 » by **itrsteve** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:27 pm

LakersSoul wrote:
Wigginstime wrote:
itrsteve wrote:Remember that humans have to train AI, it would take years to get it close to correct and even longer if Tony Brothers is involved.

I worked an AI project that attempted to replace quality inspectors from an manufacturing line with high mag imaging and AI.

AI typically takes years to train for new applications. The biggest challenge with any AI system is getting enough data to train it. Luckily we have +1000 games season and +50 years of video to feed into the AI as a starting point.

Thinking AI cannot solve reffing an NBA is funny.

10000+ games and set rules based on contact, hand movement and shooter interaction. Simple stuff.

Oh I 100% believe it can be handled by AI and it should be something explored now that betting is not just for vegas anymore. I'm mainly curious if your plan would be to train replay data or have imagery sensors all over the court and have it done in real time.

I'm actually somewhat surprised it hasn't started with calling strikes/balls in MLB as that seems like the most simple use case that you could triangulate with only having two static cameras.

DoubleLintendre · Post #64 » by **DoubleLintendre** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:18 pm

Would call fouls every other play making the game unwatchable. Human refs will eventually respond to pressure to change the way they ref and can be held accountable for missed calls.

Live sports =/= an automobile factory

Imagine they replaced your boss/supervisor with hundreds of cameras/sensors following you, tracking your every movement or click on the computer with a pre-determined code for how you're (not) supposed to sit, move, stand, open applications, etc. How often would it cite you for an infraction or correction?

LakersSoul · Post #65 » by **LakersSoul** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:27 pm

DoubleLintendre wrote:Would call fouls every other play making the game unwatchable. Human refs will eventually respond to pressure to change the way they ref and can be held accountable for missed calls.

Live sports =/= an automobile factory

Imagine they replaced your boss/supervisor with hundreds of cameras/sensors following you, tracking your every movement or click on the computer with a pre-determined code for how you're not supposed to move, stand, open applications etc. How often would it cite you for an infraction?

lol

Its called adjustments. You adjust it to make it the best and call fouls that you deems are true fouls.

The teams and players will adjust too and remove 99% of complaints and delays.

DoubleLintendre · Post #66 » by **DoubleLintendre** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 6:48 pm

LakersSoul wrote:
DoubleLintendre wrote:Would call fouls every other play making the game unwatchable. Human refs will eventually respond to pressure to change the way they ref and can be held accountable for missed calls.

Live sports =/= an automobile factory

Imagine they replaced your boss/supervisor with hundreds of cameras/sensors following you, tracking your every movement or click on the computer with a pre-determined code for how you're not supposed to move, stand, open applications etc. How often would it cite you for an infraction?

lol

Its called adjustments. You adjust it to make it the best and call fouls that you deems are true fouls.

The teams and players will adjust too and remove 99% of complaints and delays.

Should be fun to watch it get patched in real time during real games.

TheNG · Post #67 » by **TheNG** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 7:03 pm

Patches Perry wrote:It's exceptionally hard to get fouls right, and in some cases we can all look at the same slowed down replay frame by frame and come away with different conclusions. AI isn't magic. It couldn't solve for these problems. Not yet at least, and not for a long while.

I think introducing some form of AI for out of bounds, goaltending and more black and white things like that could be a good way to introduce AI into the mix.

But if we cannot agree, who says there is a "right" decision? The advantage of AI in these cases is that at least it will be deterministic.

ryguy613 · Post #68 » by **ryguy613** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 7:31 pm

If you want all the refs to be a nightmarishly uncanny valley Will Smiths eating spaghetti, then sure, I think AI is the way to go. If you want them to officiate the game, Id say no. It really just depends on what you want from them

Mamba Mentality · Post #69 » by **Mamba Mentality** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 8:05 pm

NBA needs to adopt a demerit points system. If a referee or referees make an egregious mistake during a game, they are deducted points via an oversight committee and after a number of points are accumulated, he/she/they are suspended without pay.

Also full disclosure, they might already be doing this or something similar so I might just be a complete unaware fool.

LakersSoul · Post #70 » by **LakersSoul** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 8:35 pm

TheNG wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:It's exceptionally hard to get fouls right, and in some cases we can all look at the same slowed down replay frame by frame and come away with different conclusions. AI isn't magic. It couldn't solve for these problems. Not yet at least, and not for a long while.

I think introducing some form of AI for out of bounds, goaltending and more black and white things like that could be a good way to introduce AI into the mix.

But if we cannot agree, who says there is a "right" decision? The advantage of AI in these cases is that at least it will be deterministic.

Just want the calls to stay consistent and unbiased.
Only AI could do that.

leolozon · Post #71 » by **leolozon** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 11:01 pm

Even without AI. Install the 3 refs in a video booth and they make the calls and send the info to guys on the floor who blow the whistle. I’ll take a 1-2 seconds delay on whistles for more accurate officiating. We would get used to it.

Plus no more waiting for video replays.

Plus players wouldn’t be able to complain.

The Laker Kid · Post #72 » by **The Laker Kid** » Wed Mar 12, 2025 11:25 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:No idea how any kind of tech would call fouls. We don't have cameras that can measure force (it can only measure speed). Our data gathering tools would treat being touched and getting pushed as the same thing.

Install shock sensors on players' jerseys, shoes, and headbands (everyone will now be required to wear one) When Lebron gets whacked in the head, the sensors will send a signal to a controller which calculates the pressure threshold and determines if the trigger warrants a foul (or flagrant) if the headband sensor was triggered.

The ball, paint, and court lines will also have proximity sensors. It will know if a player's foot was in contact with the 3-pt line or out of bounds play. It will know who last touched the ball, and if the ball was released on time before the buzzer.

All good and dandy, until the sensors start to malfunction when soaked with sweat. Then Luka will complain that his sensor went off when he didn't do anything wrong. Entire league goes back to complaining. I think we should just leave the refs as-is.

durden_tyler · Post #73 » by **durden_tyler** » Fri Mar 14, 2025 6:53 am

Not all, should be a combo of real refs + AI. Calls like out of bounds and goaltending, those can easily be done by AI.

SerialChiller · Post #74 » by **SerialChiller** » Fri Mar 14, 2025 7:22 am

No it's time to make the game easier to call. Allow more contact and only call obvious fouls.

dautjazz · Post #75 » by **dautjazz** » Fri Mar 14, 2025 12:48 pm

It would make more errors than humans likely, and we would constantly be reviewing AI calls

dhsilv2 · Post #76 » by **dhsilv2** » Fri Mar 14, 2025 12:51 pm

Ai is nowhere close to this level and it won't be for a long time.

LakersSoul · Post #77 » by **LakersSoul** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 5:33 am

Time to get rid of refs!!

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Dick Tate · Post #78 » by **Dick Tate** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 5:58 am

I really don’t know what people are going to do for a living once AI takes over. I’m just glad I’m getting close to retirement.

LakersSoul · Post #79 » by **LakersSoul** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 6:08 am

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leolozon · Post #80 » by **leolozon** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 1:00 pm

LakersSoul wrote:
DoubleLintendre wrote:Would call fouls every other play making the game unwatchable. Human refs will eventually respond to pressure to change the way they ref and can be held accountable for missed calls.

Live sports =/= an automobile factory

Imagine they replaced your boss/supervisor with hundreds of cameras/sensors following you, tracking your every movement or click on the computer with a pre-determined code for how you're not supposed to move, stand, open applications etc. How often would it cite you for an infraction?

lol

Its called adjustments. You adjust it to make it the best and call fouls that you deems are true fouls.

The teams and players will adjust too and remove 99% of complaints and delays.

Yeah, I don’t get the argument. You can adjust the AI and players will adjust. The difference is consistency. You can’t adjust when something is consistent and human refs on the floor aren’t. Sometimes because of biases.