What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

[bledredwine]

First, calling Russell’s defense more impactful than Jordan’s offense is a bold claim when neither of us have any idea.

Why do you think so?

Second, yes, Jordan was a dominant defender and I can never agree with you on that. Whenever he set himself out to shut someone down, he actually did it and his 88 season was the most dominant perimeter defense I’ve seen, point blank.

I don't care that Jordan was the most dominant player among the position that is the least dominant on the court. It's like saying that a center with GOAT handles should be in GOAT ball-handlers conversation.
Jordan was a great guard defender and he doesn't touch Russell on defense.

Third, when Russell is missing half the game, it’s going to be a tall order to state that his defense somehow beats Jordan’s offense,

That's your assumption, you never actually backed this up with anything substantial. We've actually seen one-way players being more impactful than two-way players all the time. It's also not true that Russell "missed half the game", he wasn't a bad offensive player.

especially when you consider the scenario where Russell is surrounded by only one allstar like Jordan for the first three peat.

You mean like in 1969 when he destroyed Holzman Knicks and won against West/Baylor/Wilt trio in the finals with only one all-star?

Then put him up against Wilt, someone who could play both ends of the court with an allstar and let’s see how he fairs.

We don't need hypotheticals, Wilt literally lost against Russell with comparable supporting casts.

I’d be shocked if Russell could win a head to head against Hakeem with the same supporting cast.

Russell did that against Wilt, I see no reason to doubt that he'd do the same against Hakeem.

Jordan could score at will, lock players down and that translates to any era.

Never said he couldn't, but that doesn't make him undeniable GOAT.

I also meant to say one more thing.

If you consider Russell having poor scoring outweighing Jordan’s offense merely with his defense,

How many top ten players can you name who were defensive savants and not offensive savants as well? How many were offensive savants and not defensive savants?

I tell you for the 10th time that Russell wasn't a "poor scorer".

Tim Duncan wasn't an offensive savant. Kevin Garnett wasn't an offensive savant. I also wouldn't call Hakeem an offensive savant, though we probably disagree here.
Magic and Shaq are the only player I'd not call "defensive savants" that make my top 10.

If you believe that Russell would outweigh Jordan’s offensive impact with his defense, that’s fine. But it’s not a sound argument, especially considering that one doesn’t even know Russell’s defense accurately.

Maybe you don't, but that doesn't mean nobody does. Please, stop projecting.

All of the greats that you named were some of the best offensive players in history. Garnett is not top ten.
Hakeem certainly was a savant if you're talking top 20'ish most skilled offensive player of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-are-bill-russell-finals-stats-by-year

In 1/3 of Russell's finals appearances, he shot below in the .300's from the field. That's really poor scoring.

I can't agree with most of what you said and you're picking single examples rather than a career of examples.

I'm also curious how Russell beat Wilt with similar supporting casts? I realize that you know more about that era than I do so in that regard, I'm trying to learn from this particular question.

[bledredwine]

First, calling Russell’s defense more impactful than Jordan’s offense is a bold claim when neither of us have any idea.

Why do you think so?

Second, yes, Jordan was a dominant defender and I can never agree with you on that. Whenever he set himself out to shut someone down, he actually did it and his 88 season was the most dominant perimeter defense I’ve seen, point blank.

I don't care that Jordan was the most dominant player among the position that is the least dominant on the court. It's like saying that a center with GOAT handles should be in GOAT ball-handlers conversation.
Jordan was a great guard defender and he doesn't touch Russell on defense.

Third, when Russell is missing half the game, it’s going to be a tall order to state that his defense somehow beats Jordan’s offense,

That's your assumption, you never actually backed this up with anything substantial. We've actually seen one-way players being more impactful than two-way players all the time. It's also not true that Russell "missed half the game", he wasn't a bad offensive player.

especially when you consider the scenario where Russell is surrounded by only one allstar like Jordan for the first three peat.

You mean like in 1969 when he destroyed Holzman Knicks and won against West/Baylor/Wilt trio in the finals with only one all-star?

Then put him up against Wilt, someone who could play both ends of the court with an allstar and let’s see how he fairs.

We don't need hypotheticals, Wilt literally lost against Russell with comparable supporting casts.

I’d be shocked if Russell could win a head to head against Hakeem with the same supporting cast.

Russell did that against Wilt, I see no reason to doubt that he'd do the same against Hakeem.

Jordan could score at will, lock players down and that translates to any era.

Never said he couldn't, but that doesn't make him undeniable GOAT.

I also meant to say one more thing.

If you consider Russell having poor scoring outweighing Jordan’s offense merely with his defense,

How many top ten players can you name who were defensive savants and not offensive savants as well? How many were offensive savants and not defensive savants?

I tell you for the 10th time that Russell wasn't a "poor scorer".

Tim Duncan wasn't an offensive savant. Kevin Garnett wasn't an offensive savant. I also wouldn't call Hakeem an offensive savant, though we probably disagree here.
Magic and Shaq are the only player I'd not call "defensive savants" that make my top 10.

If you believe that Russell would outweigh Jordan’s offensive impact with his defense, that’s fine. But it’s not a sound argument, especially considering that one doesn’t even know Russell’s defense accurately.

Maybe you don't, but that doesn't mean nobody does. Please, stop projecting.

All of the greats that you named were some of the best offensive players in history. Garnett is not a top ten player.
Hakeem certainly was a savant if you're talking top 20'ish most skilled offensive player of all time. 90s stats may not
have been inflated but he was considered a top 3-4 offensive player at the time, easily.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-are-bill-russell-finals-stats-by-year

In 1/3 of Russell's finals appearances, he shot below in the .300's from the field. That's really poor scoring.

I can't agree with most of what you said and you're picking single examples rather than a career of examples.

I'm also curious how Russell beat Wilt with similar supporting casts? I realize that you know more about that era than I do so in that regard, I'm trying to learn from this particular question.

[M2J]

They are a strength in numbers team that collapses the second Jokic leaves the floor. Great analysis! I hope Jokic leaves the Nuggets so we can see this strength in numbers team truly shine.

Terrible analysis.

So they need a better backup center as they currently have terrible options that give you nothing on either side of the floor

They had a solid backup center in Plumlee for quite a while. They were still garbage. I dont know how you imagine the backup C would help replace what Jokic brings considering most backup Cs are mostly rim protecting lob threats, nothing of witch Jokic bring to the game.
And i bet you never saw Murray try to run an offense without Jokic or MPJ trying to create his shot without Jokic getting him an advantage. It aint pretty il tell you.

So you're admitting you don't know championship basketball?

Joel had monstrous on off ratings with Butler and Simmons on the court and Harden and Maxey. You build your teams around centers, the whole game plan changes when they're off.... Even more than a pg. It affects Rebounding, offense, and in Joel's case (not Jokic) defense. Denver has plenty of offensive talent and you're not clever in trying to change the subject. You add another superstar offensive player to that team or in place of, unless it's a great 2way star.... It ain't helping their defense much, which Jokic, his physical limitations,and the covering up they need to do for him is the biggest issue with this team's chances

[Alatan]

Terrible analysis.

So they need a better backup center as they currently have terrible options that give you nothing on either side of the floor

They had a solid backup center in Plumlee for quite a while. They were still garbage. I dont know how you imagine the backup C would help replace what Jokic brings considering most backup Cs are mostly rim protecting lob threats, nothing of witch Jokic bring to the game.
And i bet you never saw Murray try to run an offense without Jokic or MPJ trying to create his shot without Jokic getting him an advantage. It aint pretty il tell you.

So you're admitting you don't know championship basketball?

Joel had monstrous on off ratings with Butler and Simmons on the court and Harden and Maxey. You build your teams around centers, the whole game plan changes when they're off.... Even more than a pg. It affects Rebounding, offense, and in Joel's case (not Jokic) defense. Denver has plenty of offensive talent and you're not clever in trying to change the subject. You add another superstar offensive player to that team or in place of, unless it's a great 2way star.... It ain't helping their defense much, which Jokic, his physical limitations,and the covering up they need to do for him is the biggest issue with this team's chances

I am not changing the subject. You claim that Denver is a team of many good players working together yet they fall apart when one sits.You then claim its because they dont have a replacement center yet when they did have one, they still fell apart. And then you continue to speak how teams are built around centers in big part Because of their defense and how Jokic brings none while Denver has plenty of offensive talent. How do they then colapse when he sits if they lose no defense and no offense when he sits? Why are they "built" around a bad defensive C when they have such prolific offensive talent???
You are clueless.

[SlimShady83]

Form a superteam like Lebron LOL

[M2J]

They had a solid backup center in Plumlee for quite a while. They were still garbage. I dont know how you imagine the backup C would help replace what Jokic brings considering most backup Cs are mostly rim protecting lob threats, nothing of witch Jokic bring to the game.
And i bet you never saw Murray try to run an offense without Jokic or MPJ trying to create his shot without Jokic getting him an advantage. It aint pretty il tell you.

So you're admitting you don't know championship basketball?

Joel had monstrous on off ratings with Butler and Simmons on the court and Harden and Maxey. You build your teams around centers, the whole game plan changes when they're off.... Even more than a pg. It affects Rebounding, offense, and in Joel's case (not Jokic) defense. Denver has plenty of offensive talent and you're not clever in trying to change the subject. You add another superstar offensive player to that team or in place of, unless it's a great 2way star.... It ain't helping their defense much, which Jokic, his physical limitations,and the covering up they need to do for him is the biggest issue with this team's chances

I am not changing the subject. You claim that Denver is a team of many good players working together yet they fall apart when one sits.You then claim its because they dont have a replacement center yet when they did have one, they still fell apart. And then you continue to speak how teams are built around centers in big part Because of their defense and how Jokic brings none while Denver has plenty of offensive talent. How do they then colapse when he sits if they lose no defense and no offense when he sits? Why are they "built" around a bad defensive C when they have such prolific offensive talent???
You are clueless.

So again what superstar would fix that?

[70sFan]

All of the greats that you named were some of the best offensive players in history.

You have a very loose criteria for "best offensive players in history". Duncan was a good offensive player, but he's not even top 50 offensive player ever. I am saying that as the biggest Duncan fan on this board.

Garnett is not a top ten player.

With all respect, you won't tell me what my top 10 looks like.

Hakeem certainly was a savant if you're talking top 20'ish most skilled offensive player of all time. 90s stats may not
have been inflated but he was considered a top 3-4 offensive player at the time, easily.

Hakeem at his absolute peak was like top 5-10 offensive player in the league on a given season, but his offensive peak was brief. He's not even close to top 20 offensive players ever.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-are-bill-russell-finals-stats-by-year

In 1/3 of Russell's finals appearances, he shot below in the .300's from the field. That's really poor scoring.

2/3 of Russell's finals appearances is still more than all Jordan finals appearances.

I'm also curious how Russell beat Wilt with similar supporting casts? I realize that you know more about that era than I do so in that regard, I'm trying to learn from this particular question.

Russell beat Wilt in 1969 with only one all-star and without a coach (Havlicek) and with a team that missed the playoffs without him next year, while Wilt had MVP-level player in Jerry West next to him and still solid Elgin Baylor.

Russell beat Wilt in 1968 without a coach and with clearly worse supporting cast on paper, though Philly played injured in the postseason so it depends on what you judge that.

Russell beat Wilt in 1966 with comparable supporting cast and it was basically a one sided domination.

I get you can't comprehend that Russell could be so good without scoring a lot, but your theory contradicts with reality here. Russell just kept winning, no matter what team, roster, coach and level he played. He dominated NCAA, he dominated Olympics, he dominated next to Red, he dominated as a player-coach. There is not a single player who was even close to him in that regard, not even Jordan or Mikan.

[SpreeS]

Jokic could have the biggest drop in +/- nrtg compared RS (+8.65 nrtg) to PS (+1.08 nrtg) from all ALl-Time great players.

[tonyreyes123]

He’d have to switch teams for this to realistically happen but 2-3 more MVPS with 2-3 more rings he’d be seen as the GOAT center by many

[zimpy27]

He has to convince Hussein Fatal that he's better than Embiid ever was

[Alatan]

So you're admitting you don't know championship basketball?

Joel had monstrous on off ratings with Butler and Simmons on the court and Harden and Maxey. You build your teams around centers, the whole game plan changes when they're off.... Even more than a pg. It affects Rebounding, offense, and in Joel's case (not Jokic) defense. Denver has plenty of offensive talent and you're not clever in trying to change the subject. You add another superstar offensive player to that team or in place of, unless it's a great 2way star.... It ain't helping their defense much, which Jokic, his physical limitations,and the covering up they need to do for him is the biggest issue with this team's chances

I am not changing the subject. You claim that Denver is a team of many good players working together yet they fall apart when one sits.You then claim its because they dont have a replacement center yet when they did have one, they still fell apart. And then you continue to speak how teams are built around centers in big part Because of their defense and how Jokic brings none while Denver has plenty of offensive talent. How do they then colapse when he sits if they lose no defense and no offense when he sits? Why are they "built" around a bad defensive C when they have such prolific offensive talent???
You are clueless.

So again what superstar would fix that?

No one can fix that. Every player on the Nuggets except for Jokic and Braun is extremely overrated at best.

Murray, MPJ and AG should have been traded to the first team dumb enough to show interest. Instead they extended them to team crippling contracts. Even before they had any logical reasons to do it, if such reasons could even exist...

You must think that Murray and MPJ are good offensive players because they put up some ppg, but i bet you have never watched them play outside few career highlights. Remove Jokics spacing, gravity and playmaking from that team and they would turn back into being pumpkins. Murray creates no separation on his drives and his trademark **** are hail Marries. Porter is even worse as he cant create anything and as soon as he gets scared by physicality he statts chuking like its his first time he touches a basketball. Gordon is a shell of hinself and he was nevet good. Average player that got hyped up because of the dunk contest. His defense is a myth. Dude is just a big body that cansomewhat hold his ground when big wings like LBJ or Doncic start raming into him. Against every othefmr tupe of player he is a traffic coan. And the otgers are horrible at defense too. Jokic gets the most blame for the teams bad D and partially righfully, but people dont stop and ask why is everyone blowing past the perimeter guys like is an exibition game. Put Gobert on this team and they wouls still get roasted because one player cant carry a defense if the others are scratching their balls because tgey got paid. Defense is much more of a team effort than offense.

I just hope Jokic gets tired of being surrounded by trash and gets traded so we can all see how good he can be and how "good" his teammates actually were.

[bledredwine]

Form a superteam like Lebron LOL

i’ve had this thought several times. It is funny but I think it might be the way to do it. Lebron’s in the convo here so Jokic definitely would be if he formed a trio.

[M2J]

I am not changing the subject. You claim that Denver is a team of many good players working together yet they fall apart when one sits.You then claim its because they dont have a replacement center yet when they did have one, they still fell apart. And then you continue to speak how teams are built around centers in big part Because of their defense and how Jokic brings none while Denver has plenty of offensive talent. How do they then colapse when he sits if they lose no defense and no offense when he sits? Why are they "built" around a bad defensive C when they have such prolific offensive talent???
You are clueless.

So again what superstar would fix that?

No one can fix that. Every player on the Nuggets except for Jokic and Braun is extremely overrated at best.

Murray, MPJ and AG should have been traded to the first team dumb enough to show interest. Instead they extended them to team crippling contracts. Even before they had any logical reasons to do it, if such reasons could even exist...

You must think that Murray and MPJ are good offensive players because they put up some ppg, but i bet you have never watched them play outside few career highlights. Remove Jokics spacing, gravity and playmaking from that team and they would turn back into being pumpkins. Murray creates no separation on his drives and his trademark **** are hail Marries. Porter is even worse as he cant create anything and as soon as he gets scared by physicality he statts chuking like its his first time he touches a basketball. Gordon is a shell of hinself and he was nevet good. Average player that got hyped up because of the dunk contest. His defense is a myth. Dude is just a big body that cansomewhat hold his ground when big wings like LBJ or Doncic start raming into him. Against every othefmr tupe of player he is a traffic coan. And the otgers are horrible at defense too. Jokic gets the most blame for the teams bad D and partially righfully, but people dont stop and ask why is everyone blowing past the perimeter guys like is an exibition game. Put Gobert on this team and they wouls still get roasted because one player cant carry a defense if the others are scratching their balls because tgey got paid. Defense is much more of a team effort than offense.

I just hope Jokic gets tired of being surrounded by trash and gets traded so we can all see how good he can be and how "good" his teammates actually were.

You sound deranged.....I mean, you're right.

Enjoy your Nikola lunch

[balrog27]

5 More finals MVP and I'll rank him over lebron and jordan. I know a lot of you like to **** on the current generation, but it is clearly a more competitive era and players are more skilled than ever. If Jokic can tie Jordan with the rings and mvps, I will give him the GOAT title.

[Lalouie]

Is it even possible? just last season I entertained the Idea of saying the Joker should easily end up top 10 and yet so many cringed when I said that. But my god, how many years of such a ridiculous peak does a man need?? Many would say his level will have t,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Sorry for the long post, but even with all the Joker threads going on right now, I think it is a legit question. I would expect answers being all over the place as usual, But want to hear the verdict.

Can Jokic end up being the GOAT??

all the players mentioned in this convo have multiple rings.

you don't get past the butler unless you have your fingers decorated with bling

wilt, bill, kareem, magic, bird, mj, shaq, kobe, tim, lebron, and curry

[playa-hater]

Is it even possible? just last season I entertained the Idea of saying the Joker should easily end up top 10 and yet so many cringed when I said that. But my god, how many years of such a ridiculous peak does a man need?? Many would say his level will have t,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Sorry for the long post, but even with all the Joker threads going on right now, I think it is a legit question. I would expect answers being all over the place as usual, But want to hear the verdict.

Can Jokic end up being the GOAT??

all the players mentioned in this convo have multiple rings.

you don't get past the butler unless you have your fingers decorated with bling

wilt, bill, kareem, magic, bird, mj, shaq, kobe, tim, lebron, and curry

Certainly. I think that goes without saying. But Jokic can definitely win some more *IF* Denver can give him better help. Or perhaps an actually Star level teammate like everyone on that list has played with. 4-5 more years of absolute dominance, 2 more MVPS and 2 more titles will be both HARD yet very realistic.

[og15]

Form a superteam like Lebron LOL

The salary cap rules wasn't THAT great for it when Lebron, Wade, etc did it, but it is much worse now. A really good a deep-ish roster with one other good star is most times actually better than a "superteam".

[Jamaaliver]

Play defense...there are two sides of a basketball court.
You can't reasonably be the greatest of all time if you only exert effort on one end of the court.

Read on Twitter

[prime1time]

I'm a Wiz fan so I watched Sarr cook Jokic. Jokic doesn't impact defense enough to be considered the GOAT. GOAT offensive player is a convo though. But he'd never be my goat because he's a defensive liability.

[Chokic]

Ppl dont think LeBron will ever surpass Jordan yet think Jokic has a slim chance? The jokic glaze here is wild. He will finish his career outside the top 10 between 13-15.