Bridges Calls Thibs Out For High MPG

[Blacksheep25]

Bridges needs to shut his lazy mouth and play more. I’d like to see him at 47mpg. Dude won me like 15 out of 18 prop bets when they’d list him at like 21.5 points+rebounds+assists and I just fired the over every game despite knowing he was having a disappointing year. When you’re playing 44mpg, the 14 points, 6 rebounds and couple assists got him over the number almost every night and they took the longest time to adjust. Fun times riding that prop with Thibs.

[Roger Murdock]

I'm not a JBB truther, but we didn't have Ty Jerome for the entire year and Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland missed so many games, the starters barely played together last season. Our second units always have Mitchell/Mobley or Garland/Allen in them. When our starters miss extended periods, it impacts both units. We still don't have a legitimate backup 5 on the roster.

Even though Atkinson is running deep rotations, guys like TT or CPJ aren't getting real run. Bates is still stuck in the G League. Players like Niang got real run despite it hurting in January when Mobley went down.

But jb coached the Cavs more than just the 2023-24 season and he sucked his entire 5 seasons as head coach, when it came to rotations.

It was 4 seasons (not counting the Beilen fiasco where he coached 11 games) and only three where we weren't rebuilding. Who are the players who should've gotten run but didn't?

The first season we were good (when no one thought we'd be), Rubio and Sexton had season ending injuries a couple months in. We were so bereft of ballhandlers besides Garland that we had to overpay for LeVert at the deadline (he promptly got injured). Mobley got injured in March. Allen got injured with two weeks left in the season.

Second season we ship out Lauri, Sexton, and Agbaji (who we drafted to fill a glaring 3&D hole) for Mitchell two weeks before training camp. Rubio is unavailable the first half of the season and a shell of his former self when he comes back. Love starts fading in the second half of the season, and Wade, who was supposed to fill his role, promptly gets injured.

I covered last season, so I'll ask again, who was he supposed to give run to who was on the roster? All I'm seeing are guys who are no longer in the NBA or are bouncing between the 15th man and the G League. All of Rondo, Danny Green, and Morris got real playoff minutes and we picked them up of the waiver wire (or in Rondo's case, for a fake second).

Altman is a better coach for this team and likely a better overall coach, but the idea that JBB had untapped potential waiting on his bench is just fantasy.

Fantasy that turned reality when Merrill, Wade, Okoro, LeVert all started getting utilized better without him

[tsherkin]

In earlier leagues where there wasn't quite as much lateral movement, heavy minutes were a little more the norm. In the 60s, for example, when Wilt was jogging block to block, it was easier for him to log crazy minutes. Easier, mind, since he was still a freaking horse relative to his own era, but 40+ mpg was a lot more common. As was 37-40 mpg through the 90s. Not everyone did it, but guys weren't getting load-managed and they still managed 80+. We saw career lengths generally be shorter as total minutes accrued faster (and also from starting later). But we've also seen athleticism rise, we've seen defense get more complicated and guys are putting different kinds of stresses on their joints now, so the drop in minutes isn't surprising.

And so Bridges definitely has a point.

[UcanUwill]

The Knicks are not contenders, regardless. It'd take devastating injuries to Boston and Cavs for them to get out of the east. I even think the Bucks can beat them.

Well great, you determined they dont have a chance, so they should not even try to prep for play offs, and Bridges is wrong. Great, thanks.

You determined they weren't contenders because a few of their guys play a few more minutes a game than you'd like.

So you're saying playing 4 extra minutes a game has doomed them.

It adds up plus the more important fact they almost never rest them. Bridges, Hart and Brunson played in almost every single game. The more it goes this way, the more probable injuries are. Knicks fallen apart last season, they had no business losing to Pacers if they were healthy. I hate blaming Thibs for Rose injury, but he was the man who played him late in that game when the game was essentially over. What Thibs doing is simply not smart, he is very smart basketball mind in some key areas, but in this one, all the other coaches are being smarter and looking ahead.

Some top guys play most games, Jokic, Tatum too, but often they dont even play in the 4th, these minutes add up over months.

[Crunch 99]

Seems like younger players should be able to handle 36mpg and suit up for nearly every game, but the actual data from this era shows a lot of them can't. I doubt it is because they aren't training as hard or as smart as players of past eras. Training methods and nutrition knowledge has advanced, and with all the teams having large staffs, most of these players have their own personal coach assigned to them to keep them on a good training regimen. So there probably is some merit to the idea that the game is putting greater body stress on players today than earlier eras. Jmo.

[Crunch 99]

Donovan MItchell missed quite a few games when he was averaging 34/35 mpg, and arrived at the playoffs multiple times with nagging injuries as a Jazzman and a Cavalier. Kenny Atkinson has him down to 31.3 mpg this season while shouldering less of the scoring load. This looks like Mitchell's best chance to arrive at the playoffs healthy to compete for a title. The Cavs are also pretty deep, so Kenny could cut Mitchell's mpg and scoring load without losing games.

Conversely, I think the Lakers ran 40 year old Lebron in to the ground with mpg and scoring load, but they didn't have a deep roster to reduce their reliance on him.

[UcanUwill]

It's irrelevant to you, but not to everyone.

They were tough. They were masculine. They got paid to play a game and they played it as much as possible for their own self respect and for the fans that paid their hard earned money to watch them play.

Much respect to those old school men that did their job and cared about the fans and their integrity.

And the Knicks ain't winning a title, regardless.

Are Jazz fans happier knowing they had the chance to see Malone and Stockton play every game, or would they be happier knowing they did what was best for postseason?

These, past players were tough posts are laugable to me. Players rest because that gives team best odds long term, teams simply learned and got smarter, but people like you confuse that for getting softer. Playing in every game 36+ minutes, especially in a league like this is simply not smart.

Knicks suppose to be contenders, but they wont be, cause their opposition will be in better physical condition come play off time.

I never got the sense that Malone and Stockton were too banged up to perform to their expected levels in the playoffs (exception for old Lakers Malone) nor that their careers would have lasted longer if they had load managed. They were just top tier durable. Very few even have a case for more durability and longevity.

I don't disagree with this, but did it help that they played those every regular season games? Its between tired ironman or less tired ironman, and I still take the latter.

As I said, its not a good comp, cause in the past, all these stars played in every game so all the teams were on last legs by play off time. And now its not like that. Yes, in the past all these guys played as long as they were able to walk up the court, but I dont really see it as tough, more just stupid. Opposition has smarten up, but Thibs teams didn't, thats the problem in my opinion. Bridges missed 1 game so far, maybe he played through injury many times, guy got tired literally and figuratively, its just not smart if you want to do anything in the play offs these days. We already had that story how KAT played through injury, and Thibs' excuse was that KAT wanted to play. But players want to play, its your job as coach to sit them when its for the better of the team.

[Handlez]

Well great, you determined they dont have a chance, so they should not even try to prep for play offs, and Bridges is wrong. Great, thanks.

You determined they weren't contenders because a few of their guys play a few more minutes a game than you'd like.

So you're saying playing 4 extra minutes a game has doomed them.

It adds up plus the more important fact they almost never rest them. Bridges, Hart and Brunson played in almost every single game. The more it goes this way, the more probable injuries are. Knicks fallen apart last season, they had no business losing to Pacers if they were healthy. I hate blaming Thibs for Rose injury, but he was the man who played him late in that game when the game was essentially over. What Thibs doing is simply not smart, he is very smart basketball mind in some key areas, but in this one, all the other coaches are being smarter and looking ahead.

Some top guys play most games, Jokic, Tatum too, but often they dont even play in the 4th, these minutes add up over months.

Well I actually would prefer a 65-70 game season.

Even if players are playing, the intensity can be low on a lot of nights and players are just going through the motions.

With less games a season, players could play every game with intensity and high competitiveness, but I'm sure they'll never lower the games a season because it'd lose the league money.

Playoff basketball is a different game because every game has a different level of intensity.

[Ice Man]

I posted on another thread how in 1990 the stars all played pretty much every game, pretty much always big minutes. While the response to that change in the NBA game tends to be "Today's players are pussies," that doesn't really get at the issue, because today's players aren't missing games for their spa days. They are getting hurt. AD is legit hurt, and Luka was legit hurt, and Kyrie is legit hurt, and LeBron is legit hurt, and Brunson is legit hurt. And so forth.

I don't know what the reason is for the change, but the bottom line is that while Bridges' comment would have made little sense in 1990, it does today. It's quite possible that those minutes will contribute to an injury for him.

[Gus McCrae]

I know I'm likely getting trolled, but I can't resist.

You simply are saying they run more. The 90s were far more physical.

I have no idea where this graph comes from, its methodology, or how reliable of a source it is (the numbers should be pretty accurate for recent years, but I've no idea how they would determine this for the 1980 season when I'm not even sure there is game footage available for every game back then), but let's assume it's true and break the numbers down a bit...

The graph shows that roughly 200 more miles are covered over an 82-game span now than in 1980.
To break that down per game, we divide 200 by 82, and we get 2.44 additional miles per game.
But of course each game is played by 10 players, not 1. So when we distribute the additional miles per player, we get about .244 additional miles for each player. Now that we are into fractions, let's convert to meters to make it easier.
1 mile is roughly 1,609 meters, so .244 miles is about 392.6 meters.
But of course players don't play a full 48 minutes, there are subs. Bridges, for example, only plays about 75% of each game on average.
And if we take the 392.6 meters and multiply by 0.75, we see that a player like Bridges is moving an additional 295 meters per game than a player from 1980 that played the same minutes.
According to this article, that's about 1-minute of sprinting for a male in good shape: https://www.weekand.com/healthy-living/article/average-time-male-run-300-meters-18058607.php
Feel free to check my math, as it's late, but I'm pretty sure I did that right.

So 1-minute of extra sprinting per game, not insignificant by any means, but we also have to factor in that high-end starters like Bridges would probably be playing more minutes in previous eras, so the difference is likely less in actuality.
Plus modern NBA players get private jets instead of flying commercial (or buses way back in the day), they don't have the grueling schedule players in the past had to deal with (games on three consecutive nights sometimes back in 1980, but even up until recently five games in 7 nights was not uncommon), and of course all the advanced training and breakthroughs in diet that fans of the modern game remind us about regularly, which should be helping players recover and stay healthier and fresher for games.
Plus, there was literally no such thing as a flagrant foul in 1980, so I do think the game was rougher as players weren't as protected as they are now, not to say the game isn't more physical in other ways now (offensive players are allowed to initiate much more contact now than they were in 1980, for example).

Not really taking a side here, I just thought it'd be interesting to see how the numbers break down.
Personally, I think what Thib's does with minutes is fine, but all of his starters should get like 4-5 rest days per year imo to help their body recover. I think that would likely have more benefit than a couple less minutes a game, but I'm not an expert on the human body and physiology so maybe I'm off base on that one.

I saw it a different way. Just took 1520/5 =304 miles season per player. 304-82 =3.7 miles per game per player per 48. Then assuming 36 minutes is 2.7 miles per game. This would be compared to 2.35 in the 80s. Not bad at all, actually seems low. Not to mention players miss more games nowadays.

[HMFFL]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"
Thibs: "Sounds like a plan!"

Look over the Knicks history before Tom Thibodeau turned things around. Oh, how people forget.

Non All-Star Mikal Bridges has an issue? Okay!



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Forget what? This thread isn't about the history of the Knicks or the success in the last years compared to the Fisher/Hornacek/Fizdale/Phil "era".

Thibs is the reason why the Knicks are a much more stable team. He is the past and present, but that has nothing to do with the Knicks history? Let me know when the high end role player Bridges makes an all-star team.

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[Laimbeer]

Unbelievable with this guy. He acts like he leads the league in minutes, or his teammate does.

Pathetic.

He does.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025_totals.html

[Haldi]

I know I'm likely getting trolled, but I can't resist.

You simply are saying they run more. The 90s were far more physical.

I have no idea where this graph comes from, its methodology, or how reliable of a source it is (the numbers should be pretty accurate for recent years, but I've no idea how they would determine this for the 1980 season when I'm not even sure there is game footage available for every game back then), but let's assume it's true and break the numbers down a bit...

The graph shows that roughly 200 more miles are covered over an 82-game span now than in 1980.
To break that down per game, we divide 200 by 82, and we get 2.44 additional miles per game.
But of course each game is played by 10 players, not 1. So when we distribute the additional miles per player, we get about .244 additional miles for each player. Now that we are into fractions, let's convert to meters to make it easier.
1 mile is roughly 1,609 meters, so .244 miles is about 392.6 meters.
But of course players don't play a full 48 minutes, there are subs. Bridges, for example, only plays about 75% of each game on average.
And if we take the 392.6 meters and multiply by 0.75, we see that a player like Bridges is moving an additional 295 meters per game than a player from 1980 that played the same minutes.
According to this article, that's about 1-minute of sprinting for a male in good shape: https://www.weekand.com/healthy-living/article/average-time-male-run-300-meters-18058607.php
Feel free to check my math, as it's late, but I'm pretty sure I did that right.

So 1-minute of extra sprinting per game, not insignificant by any means, but we also have to factor in that high-end starters like Bridges would probably be playing more minutes in previous eras, so the difference is likely less in actuality.
Plus modern NBA players get private jets instead of flying commercial (or buses way back in the day), they don't have the grueling schedule players in the past had to deal with (games on three consecutive nights sometimes back in 1980, but even up until recently five games in 7 nights was not uncommon), and of course all the advanced training and breakthroughs in diet that fans of the modern game remind us about regularly, which should be helping players recover and stay healthier and fresher for games.
Plus, there was literally no such thing as a flagrant foul in 1980, so I do think the game was rougher as players weren't as protected as they are now, not to say the game isn't more physical in other ways now (offensive players are allowed to initiate much more contact now than they were in 1980, for example).

Not really taking a side here, I just thought it'd be interesting to see how the numbers break down.
Personally, I think what Thib's does with minutes is fine, but all of his starters should get like 4-5 rest days per year imo to help their body recover. I think that would likely have more benefit than a couple less minutes a game, but I'm not an expert on the human body and physiology so maybe I'm off base on that one.

You did all that (good) math without taking anything else into account lol. As it has been repeated and repeated in this thread and MANY others, the cutting, quick change of direction type of movements are insanely harder on human legs than standing around on a block and fighting for position kinda wrestling and shoving one another. I don’t understand how this doesn’t hit people in the face yet… And everytime it gets brought, the usuals around here are like “you’re just making that up” and so on.

Honestly, just try playing a competitive game of basketball where on one hand you have to chase a lightning quick guard moving around everywhere without giving him any daylight and then try to play more in the post defending an ogre type player that doesn’t move around much but is strong as ox. One is way more likely to result in injury than the other. And im not saying the other one will be easy, you may get dominated, but your chance of injury will be vastly diminished. And most of all, staying on the court and extra 5-10 minutes a game will be vastly easier.

And yes, it will also be “more physical” but like, who the hell cares. I will never understand older fans obsession with watching the bigger players in the 90s just shoving and pushing each other all game. Since back then I always thought it was dumb as hell and am so glad most of that nonsense is extinct from the game. Now thats just my opinion of course, but when it comes to, “is it harder to play 38 minutes a game today or in the 90s”, its a fact that its much harder to do that today.

[jeeph]

Defensive exertion is a bit higher now.

ISO used to be the offensive system used. You might have a Stockton/Malone pick-n-roll thrown in but for the most part it was about getting scorers to their spots. So if you were no the guy getting ISO'd on defense, you were standing around (the illegal defense call held you). I remember players saying "I'm going to be tired tomorrow because I have to guard _______." That's because they were going to get ISO'd a lot that game. The next game, maybe not. Depends on personnel.

For the most part, teams went under the pick, as the 3 wasn't the threat it is today. They played on a smaller floor. With teams that can go 5 out on offense, which is quite a few, means you have to guard to the 3 line with every player. Even with the teams that can't, most teams only want 1 non-3 shooter on the floor at any given time.

Not only that but teams used to have 1, maybe 2 snipers on a team that would go around back screens. The Cavs have Mitchell, Garland, Strus, Merrill, Hunter, Jerome, Wade, and Okoro. That's 8 guys that do that every game. Guys you have to chase over the screen to prevent the 3 vs. going under.

So IMHO, players get less breaks and their movements have to be further and quicker in today's game. Maybe not drastically, but if it's even 5% less break possessions while being 5% further and faster, that's going to add up. Playing 36 minutes at 15% harder would be equal to 40 minutes of the lesser exertion. And tired equals an increase in injuries.

I think it's unquestioned that injuries are thee #1 indicator of potential playoff chances. Any team that says that they are into analytics has to understand this.

[jbk1234]

But jb coached the Cavs more than just the 2023-24 season and he sucked his entire 5 seasons as head coach, when it came to rotations.

It was 4 seasons (not counting the Beilen fiasco where he coached 11 games) and only three where we weren't rebuilding. Who are the players who should've gotten run but didn't?

The first season we were good (when no one thought we'd be), Rubio and Sexton had season ending injuries a couple months in. We were so bereft of ballhandlers besides Garland that we had to overpay for LeVert at the deadline (he promptly got injured). Mobley got injured in March. Allen got injured with two weeks left in the season.

Second season we ship out Lauri, Sexton, and Agbaji (who we drafted to fill a glaring 3&D hole) for Mitchell two weeks before training camp. Rubio is unavailable the first half of the season and a shell of his former self when he comes back. Love starts fading in the second half of the season, and Wade, who was supposed to fill his role, promptly gets injured.

I covered last season, so I'll ask again, who was he supposed to give run to who was on the roster? All I'm seeing are guys who are no longer in the NBA or are bouncing between the 15th man and the G League. All of Rondo, Danny Green, and Morris got real playoff minutes and we picked them up of the waiver wire (or in Rondo's case, for a fake second).

Altman is a better coach for this team and likely a better overall coach, but the idea that JBB had untapped potential waiting on his bench is just fantasy.

Fantasy that turned reality when Merrill, Wade, Okoro, LeVert all started getting utilized better without him

Better utilized in that they all got bumped down in the rotation (or traded). The issue with Wade was and is availability, but Hunter has taken his slot as the first bench big. Merrill and Okoro are still very much situational guys. Atkinson has had the luxury of not having to leave them out there when it's not working. It's taken Hurclean efforts by Garland to get past the Pistons and Nets when we were short handed and Atkinson didn't have that luxury.

Kenny is a better coach than JBB, but fans who are dismissing depth and health are kidding themselves. Kenny's dedication to his regular rotations when we were shorthanded lead to Niang posting some miserable +/- performances in January. Altman was smart to trade Niang and remove him as an option.

[ChumboChappati]

There has been a lot of discourse on the GB for Thibs running guys into the ground, which is his reputation.

Lots of Knicks fans deny it is even true, well Bridges now speaking out publicly about it.

For reference...

Hart and Bridges lead the NBA at 37.8 MPG. OG is 6th in the NBA at 36.6 MPG. Brunson in the top 20 at 35.4 MPG before his injury. KAT clocking in at 35.1 MPG.

Thibs is murdering the Knicks starters

[Ritzo]

Jeff Hornacek was a 6'4 190 lbs SG in the so-called physical 90's era, he averaged 38 minutes per game and played 81 games in 1991. Scott Skiles averaged 39.6 minutes per game in 1993 and played 78 games. That doesn't make them "TOUGHER" than players today, they played slow and didn't have to chase 6 Regie Millers running off screens in every possession

[NiceLikeChrist]

good lord we have guys in here talking about stockton mpg. yea I'd truly love to see stockton guard the opposing teams best guard every game for 38 mins in 2025

if mikal was on the 90s jazz he could log 40 a game and not break a sweat. it's a different ball game now

[zeebneeb]

Unbelievable with this guy. He acts like he leads the league in minutes, or his teammate does.

Pathetic.

He does.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025_totals.html

Today I learned that sarcasm can be to subtle for some folks.

[HMFFL]

good lord we have guys in here talking about stockton mpg. yea I'd truly love to see stockton guard the opposing teams best guard every game for 38 mins in 2025

if mikal was on the 90s jazz he could log 40 a game and not break a sweat. it's a different ball game now

Stockton had 3,265 steals and 15,806 assists and you want me to believe that Mikal Bridges is giving more effort?


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