Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[BigO]

One good off season away? What woulld that look like? Every team says that to themselves and their fans.

If the Bucks had cap space OR if they had draft choices of value, one could make a case.


This board goes thru months of posts debating obtaining unattainable players or players who don't add significant value. Just think about the euphoria of getting Kuzma.

The only player of value that was possibly obtainable was Butler and the owners weren't willing to be in second apron hell.

[emunney]

Let's trade literally the only superstar who's ever loved our city for Flagg so he can leave for the Celtics the first chance he gets.

[Ron Swanson]

Ownership lets Horst hire Atkinson. Ownership tells Horst to throw the best offer at Miami for Jimmy (Khris, Bobby, AJ Johnson, 2031 1st). That's literally two moves that we were a hair away from executing that completely change the ceiling and trajectory of this team. Yeah, one good offseason away.

[German Athens]

One good off season away? What woulld that look like? Every team says that to themselves and their fans.

If the Bucks had cap space OR if they had draft choices of value, one could make a case.


This board goes thru months of posts debating obtaining unattainable players or players who don't add significant value. Just think about the euphoria of getting Kuzma.

The only player of value that was possibly obtainable was Butler and the owners weren't willing to be in second apron hell.

There was absolutely not euphoria around getting Kuzma. Almost everyone was irate about that deal. Whether it was lowering our ceiling without Khris, or attaching our recent first round selection who looked like he had potential. The deal was widely panned here.


I think the people who moved forward the fastest were the ones that assumed something was seriously wrong with Khris long term, and I believe someone on this board knows exactly what it was, but isn’t able to spill the beans.


I think a lot of the reaction to Kuzma, once he started playing here, being mildly warm is just a realization that this is now what we have, the decisions have always been out of our control, so let’s be optimistic and see what new things he brings. For the record, he does bring some things to the team that we haven’t had in the past.

In the right situation, he could be a decently valuable player here, but we need more holes filled on the roster.


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[German Athens]

Ownership lets Horst hire Atkinson. Ownership tells Horst to throw the best offer at Miami for Jimmy (Khris, Bobby, AJ Johnson, 2031 1st). That's literally two moves that we were a hair away from executing that completely change the ceiling and trajectory of this team. Yeah, one good offseason away.

Yep, it doesn’t take much when you have a top flight player.

I don’t trust the decision makers, but I can still be hopeful they luck into something good.


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[Ron Swanson]

Ownership lets Horst hire Atkinson. Ownership tells Horst to throw the best offer at Miami for Jimmy (Khris, Bobby, AJ Johnson, 2031 1st). That's literally two moves that we were a hair away from executing that completely change the ceiling and trajectory of this team. Yeah, one good offseason away.

Yep, it doesn’t take much when you have a top flight player.

I don’t trust the decision makers, but I can still be hopeful they luck into something good.


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And I mean, this is fixable too. Just get different decision-makers (Coach, GM).

[German Athens]

Ownership lets Horst hire Atkinson. Ownership tells Horst to throw the best offer at Miami for Jimmy (Khris, Bobby, AJ Johnson, 2031 1st). That's literally two moves that we were a hair away from executing that completely change the ceiling and trajectory of this team. Yeah, one good offseason away.

Yep, it doesn’t take much when you have a top flight player.

I don’t trust the decision makers, but I can still be hopeful they luck into something good.


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And I mean, this is fixable too. Just get different decision-makers (Coach, GM).

Yes, and that’s where my hope is, but I also don’t exactly trust the owners and they are a pretty large part of the decision making group.

I strongly believe Doc was their choice without input from the basketball org.

Hopefully they hire a new, competent GM who hires a new, competent Coach and the owners actually trust them to do their jobs.

No “extensive” searches just to end up with Horst or Griffin.


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[German Athens]

Would you guys trade that ‘31 1st for Spo?

I generally think trading picks for coaches is stupid, because hiring competent coaches shouldn’t be that hard, but orgs get coaching hires wrong all the time.

Just kinda want to know where people are at.


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[MickeyDavis]

Spo is a good but overrated coach. I'd never give up a FRP for him.

[Ron Swanson]

I wouldn't give up a 2031 1st for any coach.

[paulpressey25]

You imply you have a price. It's just higher than mine. So if I could convince you that we could get back equal or more in a trade, would you do it?

There are many dimensions to trading Giannis. If he asks out, obviously then you do it, and work for the best deal to set the team up for the future.

But if he continues to be loyal to Milwaukee, I don't think you pull the trigger ever. Why?

1. He's a top 3 player now and likely top 3 for the next three years if his knee holds up. Having a top 3 player is virtually impossible to do. Sidney in his prime was top 3-5 but you have to go back to 1983 for that.

2. 10-15 years ago the Bucks had zero young fans. Zero. It was just us diehards who either came to the team during the great 1970's, 1980's, or very short 1999-2003 big three era. Giannis has now brought in half the state. I see Bucks gear EVERYWHERE when I travel now. Seeing him go while still a top 3 player would be a devastating blow.

3. Need someone to point out a deal where the team trading the top 3-5 guy won the trade. It just never happens.

4. Haslam. I'm convinced the guy has some clause in his ownership where he can control majority if the other three sell. (and Junior was brought in by Haslam. Where will Junior's shares go?). If Haslam controls and keeps the team here, great. But Nashville beckons.

5. New GM. If the owners could find a good new GM, you can retool around Giannis versus re-treading around him. Might take two years, but it is possible.

I understand many of us on this board are now bored with the team, and the intellectual idea of preemptively trading Giannis makes for great discussion. But it is really bad policy.

[fansinceforever]

Guys, we've got to stop with the rage around trading anybody on our roster - including Giannis.

I said over a year ago that we're going to find out Khris Middleton has no value and I was shouted down.

I'll say it again, soon we're going to find out Dame doesn't have the value some here think he does.

So, What's the plan then? The Bucks are literally backed into a corner from a roster stand point. We've reached the point where its fair to consider everything.

[jakecronus8]

The idea that there is a plan at this point is even up for debate.

The plan was Dame was a perfect running mate for Giannis. That turned out to not be the case. Now we just watch the Giannis era fizzle out like a 4th of July sparkler.

[emunney]

I will keep hammering on this point even though I realize anybody who hasn't heard it by now isn't likely to: there is not that much difference between teams now. Two years ago, stories were being written about how the Thunder didn't have the top end talent and should trade SGA. They could have been right, but they weren't. The Raptors were a treadmill team. They made a couple moves, one of which would have been unthinkable a year earlier (getting Kawhi for a song), and they won a title. Almost every year a team comes seemingly out of nowhere.

There are so many unknowns. There is so much change. But one constant is how much more valuable a perennial MVP candidate type is than a perennial all-star reserve type. Just axiomatically, they are 5x harder to get. The competitive advantage they provide is even harder to reproduce by other means. Voluntarily trading a guy like that is the single worst thing you can do to a franchise.

[Ron Swanson]

A fun exercise that I recommend is going back to that 2008-2010 period of Mavericks basketball, cuz the parallels are certainly interesting. They were barely squeaking out 49-50 wins both years, Dirk was turning 30 and about to be an unrestricted FA, and everyone was assuming the window was closing really fast if not already shut. They had won a single playoff series in the last 4-years since reaching the Finals in 2006 (sound familiar?).

Lots of chatter even going back to 2007 after that historic playoff flameout about "getting ahead of it" with a preemptive Dirk trade (TBF, mostly revolved around Kobe who was fed up with Buss/Kupchak at the time). That 2010 turnaround doesn't get talked about enough though. They just needed the right coach (Carlisle) and the right veteran supporting pieces (Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion) and the rest was history. So no, unless Giannis demands out this summer, I'm not punting on what I still believe will be the best 3-year championship window we have left in my lifetime. You can talk all you want about "parity" in this league and how the 3PT shot has changed everything, but the golden rule still applies to 95% of championship teams. And that's you don't even have a shot unless you have a Top 3-5 guy in any given year.

[BigO]

You imply you have a price. It's just higher than mine. So if I could convince you that we could get back equal or more in a trade, would you do it?

There are many dimensions to trading Giannis. If he asks out, obviously then you do it, and work for the best deal to set the team up for the future.

But if he continues to be loyal to Milwaukee, I don't think you pull the trigger ever. Why?

1. He's a top 3 player now and likely top 3 for the next three years if his knee holds up. Having a top 3 player is virtually impossible to do. Sidney in his prime was top 3-5 but you have to go back to 1983 for that.

2. 10-15 years ago the Bucks had zero young fans. Zero. It was just us diehards who either came to the team during the great 1970's, 1980's, or very short 1999-2003 big three era. Giannis has now brought in half the state. I see Bucks gear EVERYWHERE when I travel now. Seeing him go while still a top 3 player would be a devastating blow.

3. Need someone to point out a deal where the team trading the top 3-5 guy won the trade. It just never happens.

4. Haslam. I'm convinced the guy has some clause in his ownership where he can control majority if the other three sell. (and Junior was brought in by Haslam. Where will Junior's shares go?). If Haslam controls and keeps the team here, great. But Nashville beckons.

5. New GM. If the owners could find a good new GM, you can retool around Giannis versus re-treading around him. Might take two years, but it is possible.

I understand many of us on this board are now bored with the team, and the intellectual idea of preemptively trading Giannis makes for great discussion. But it is really bad policy.

Responding to your points:

1) I notice that you can get good Buck's seats fro cheap for virtually any game.The enthusiasm you refer to has waned and will wane much more if the slide continues.

2) Our analysis of the importance of the coach and how good/bad Doc is, are much different. Atkinson is the flavor of the month. He has a top two starting lineup and a top reserve.

The Cavs were hurt much of last year and this year they are healthy. I repeat, the guy the Cavs fired will probably be coach of the year this year. Posters need to stop elevating coaches based on one year success.

Basing a Buck's resurgence on a strategy of getting a new coach only prolongues the eventual rebuild.

3) If you thought Cooper Flagg was the next Larry Bird, would this sway your opinion? I don't get excited about college players very often. This guy is special. You don't trade Giannis unless you have strong feelings that someone is the next superstar.

Flagg can do everything. He is a special defensive player. He is a great passer and rebounder. He is a very good shooter, who will only get better. Other than Wembenyama, he is the best high draft choice I've seen in the last ten years.

To be a great GM, you have to be a great evaluator of talent and be ahead of the curve.

[emunney]

I think parity is very real, but that only enhances the value of the best players. Having talent spread throughout the league means a single transcendent player is an unnatural talent concentration.

Also, just as an aside, the Dame trade has not been as wild a success as I hoped, but also Jrue has crashed harder than I expected. Dame has lost some value, but making that trade in reverse now would be insane.

[Ron Swanson]

I mean, even if you could trade Giannis right now for Wemby, what would even be the point? Are you also getting all your picks and swaps back from New Orleans and Portland? "Trading Giannis for the biggest asset haul ever" always has an intriguing ring to it until you realize all the variables you have to navigate. Blame Horst for trading all those picks away in the first place, fine, but this is the reality that we have to operate under.

[BigO]

Guys, we've got to stop with the rage around trading anybody on our roster - including Giannis.

I said over a year ago that we're going to find out Khris Middleton has no value and I was shouted down.

I'll say it again, soon we're going to find out Dame doesn't have the value some here think he does.

So, What's the plan then? The Bucks are literally backed into a corner from a roster stand point. We've reached the point where its fair to consider everything.

I was not in favor of trading KM, because I thought the only team he had value for was the Bucks.

I would have gladly taken the KM who came back this year.He shot 51% overall and 41 on threes,with 4.5 assists and 4 rebounds a game.

But if KM can only play 20 minutes a game and the Bucks knew that, I can't blame them for trying to get something and help the cap space.

[BigO]

A fun exercise that I recommend is going back to that 2008-2010 period of Mavericks basketball, cuz the parallels are certainly interesting. They were barely squeaking out 49-50 wins both years, Dirk was turning 30 and about to be an unrestricted FA, and everyone was assuming the window was closing really fast if not already shut. They had won a single playoff series in the last 4-years since reaching the Finals in 2006 (sound familiar?).

Lots of chatter even going back to 2007 after that historic playoff flameout about "getting ahead of it" with a preemptive Dirk trade (TBF, mostly revolved around Kobe who was fed up with Buss/Kupchak at the time). That 2010 turnaround doesn't get talked about enough though. They just needed the right coach (Carlisle) and the right veteran supporting pieces (Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion) and the rest was history. So no, unless Giannis demands out this summer, I'm not punting on what I still believe will be the best 3-year championship window we have left in my lifetime. You can talk all you want about "parity" in this league and how the 3PT shot has changed everything, but the golden rule still applies to 95% of championship teams. And that's you don't even have a shot unless you have a Top 3-5 guy in any given year.

I don't think Tatum was a top three to five player.