NBA Trade Thread #11

[Infinity2152]

KP has only one year left after this season at 30M. Expiring contracts aren't hard to move. If Holiday is still a good two-way player he won't be hard to move to the right team although this is doubtful given his age. The Celtics have picks to attach though. They could also just let KP's contract expire and get 30M off the books. If Coby gets an extension, how much money are they saving versus keeping KP and just letting him walk in free agency?

Not sure if the Celtics are saving any money here which is their only justification for this trade.

Brown makes $53 mill. Coby, Pat and Vuc make $40. $13 mill right there. Vuc is expiring, play him one season so you actually have a center, $20 mill more gone. $33 mill saved. Assuming you trade Jrue for net neutral expirings and not much more, that's the same savings right there. They have to decide to keep Coby, they could trade him for picks or let him expire. Another potential $12 mill. You still have Pat, who could be good there for two more years and you've saved about $45 mill.

End result: Trade Brown: Get Coby White, Vucevic, Pat Williams and the #5 pick (say KJ), about $8 mill, so $5 mill saved.
Can afford to trade Jrue now. Get expiring role players. Maybe even get under the second apron. Starting lineup: Derrick White, Coby White, Jayson Tatum, Porzingas, Vucevic with KJ, Pat Will, Pritchard. KJ could be good enough to quickly push Coby to sixth man. That's a championship contender lineup.

This summer: Vuc's $20 mill comes of the books. The expirings for Holiday come off the books, $33 mill. Porzingas is expiring. That's $30 mill. Coby is expiring. That's $12 mill. Yes, you may re-sign Coby or Porzingas, but there's no guaranteed money. You added $18 mill for Pat Will and $8 mill for KJ. Before you re-sign Coby or Porzingas, you've cleared $69 mill. You kept Vucevic for a legit title run, you still have KJ on a cheap contract and hopefully Pat Will is performing and cleared a ton of cap space. At the second apron, aren't they paying like $2.50 dollars for every dollar over the cap? They're paying over $50 mill in penalties this year, and it's worse next year. Regardless of what side moves they make, keeping Jaylen Brown and Tatum at over $50 mill apiece is going to be tough. There are severe disadvantages to being a repeater team over the second apron

Coby makes 12.8M, Pat 18M, and Vuc 21.4M. That's 52M. The Celtics aren't saving much money here. If you add the FRP, the Celtics would have more money on the books for next season. In the short term, this trade would increase their payroll and tax bill.

It's 4 players for 1. If you're adding Coby and KJ this summer, you could easily try to dump Holiday this summer. They have no starting center next year as is, unless you count Porzingas. This gives them a center, 2 guards and a SF/PF. I mean , if you think Jaylen Brown's value to the team would exceed the combined contribution of adding all those players to the Celtics, ok. Think you're understating the value of getting pick 5 in this loaded draft too. That should be extremely valuable, could end up Ace Bailey or Dylan Harper. Don't think there's a player on this team outside of maybe Giddey we could trade and get the #5 pick. Probably not him either.

Looks like the Celtics have 11 players under contract next year and are already above the second cap with cap holds. Without them, they're well above the first apron. Of the 11 players left, 5 are Baylor Schierman, Neemias Quetas, Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh and Xavier Tillman. Unless they're running a 6 man rotation, turning Brown into Coby, KJ, Pat and Vuc cost a little more now but is a much deeper team with way more flexibility the next summer. When they sign three more players, those 3 players with Brown will undoubtedly be far more than Coby, Vuc, Pat, KJ, unless they're all minimum players. Again, Coby and Vuc's contracts are expiring, so phrase it how you want, that's $32.4 mill clear that won't be clear with Brown instead.

I liken it to the Suns situation. They would be far better if they could trade Beal for 3-4 starter level/near starter level players. Coby, Pat, KJ, Vuc fit that category to me. Given the rest of the talent on the Celtics, Brown at $53 mill is a luxury. Their team looks like a 2k team, bunch of expensive starters, mostly minimum contract bench, still WAY over the cap with no relief in sight. One or two starters go down, you're starting Peyton Pritchard with nothing on the bench. Unless it's Porzingas, then you're starting Xavier Tillman or Neemas Queta.

Oh, and 2026 Jaylen Brown makes $57 mill and Tatum makes $58.5 mill. Jrue and Derrick White make a combined $65 mill. Porzingas has a $46 mill cap hold. If he gets that and they keep this starting squad together, cost is $226 mill just for the starters.
Jrue gets 20% of the cap. Brown gets 34%. Tatum gets 34%. White gets 17%. Porzingas cap hold is 27%. Something has to give, and trading the 34% contract helps more than the 20% one. Getting rid of both really, really helps.

Anyway, not going to keep arguing why it might make sense to the Celtics. Question is does it make sense for the Bulls? Seems like every time I offer a trade proposal, somebody comes up with reasons why the other team would never do that, lmao! The value is not drastically different, you'd need to trade a player near Jaylen Brown's level just for the number 5 pick in this draft, let alone all the additional players. Could Giddey, Brown, Matas be the core of a contender? Unless the Celtics consider Jaylen Brown untradeable for some reason and that never changes, there's a price they'll accept.

A lot of these commenters who think Coby, Pat and Vuc are all trash, of course it's automatic that any trade that includes them as important pieces will be rejected in their eyes. Then we have to have a whole different argument about how much each is worth individually and combined.

[sco]

Brown makes $53 mill. Coby, Pat and Vuc make $40. $13 mill right there. Vuc is expiring, play him one season so you actually have a center, $20 mill more gone. $33 mill saved. Assuming you trade Jrue for net neutral expirings and not much more, that's the same savings right there. They have to decide to keep Coby, they could trade him for picks or let him expire. Another potential $12 mill. You still have Pat, who could be good there for two more years and you've saved about $45 mill.

End result: Trade Brown: Get Coby White, Vucevic, Pat Williams and the #5 pick (say KJ), about $8 mill, so $5 mill saved.
Can afford to trade Jrue now. Get expiring role players. Maybe even get under the second apron. Starting lineup: Derrick White, Coby White, Jayson Tatum, Porzingas, Vucevic with KJ, Pat Will, Pritchard. KJ could be good enough to quickly push Coby to sixth man. That's a championship contender lineup.

This summer: Vuc's $20 mill comes of the books. The expirings for Holiday come off the books, $33 mill. Porzingas is expiring. That's $30 mill. Coby is expiring. That's $12 mill. Yes, you may re-sign Coby or Porzingas, but there's no guaranteed money. You added $18 mill for Pat Will and $8 mill for KJ. Before you re-sign Coby or Porzingas, you've cleared $69 mill. You kept Vucevic for a legit title run, you still have KJ on a cheap contract and hopefully Pat Will is performing and cleared a ton of cap space. At the second apron, aren't they paying like $2.50 dollars for every dollar over the cap? They're paying over $50 mill in penalties this year, and it's worse next year. Regardless of what side moves they make, keeping Jaylen Brown and Tatum at over $50 mill apiece is going to be tough. There are severe disadvantages to being a repeater team over the second apron

Coby makes 12.8M, Pat 18M, and Vuc 21.4M. That's 52M. The Celtics aren't saving much money here. If you add the FRP, the Celtics would have more money on the books for next season. In the short term, this trade would increase their payroll and tax bill.

It's 4 players for 1. If you're adding Coby and KJ this summer, you could easily try to dump Holiday this summer. They have no starting center next year as is, unless you count Porzingas. This gives them a center, 2 guards and a SF/PF. I mean , if you think Jaylen Brown's value to the team would exceed the combined contribution of adding all those players to the Celtics, ok. Think you're understating the value of getting pick 5 in this loaded draft too. That should be extremely valuable, could end up Ace Bailey or Dylan Harper. Don't think there's a player on this team outside of maybe Giddey we could trade and get the #5 pick. Probably not him either.

Looks like the Celtics have 11 players under contract next year and are already above the second cap with cap holds. Without them, they're well above the first apron. Of the 11 players left, 5 are Baylor Schierman, Neemias Quetas, Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh and Xavier Tillman. Unless they're running a 6 man rotation, turning Brown into Coby, KJ, Pat and Vuc cost a little more now but is a much deeper team with way more flexibility the next summer. When they sign three more players, those 3 players with Brown will undoubtedly be far more than Coby, Vuc, Pat, KJ, unless they're all minimum players. Again, Coby and Vuc's contracts are expiring, so phrase it how you want, that's $32.4 mill clear that won't be clear with Brown instead.

I liken it to the Suns situation. They would be far better if they could trade Beal for 3-4 starter level/near starter level players. Coby, Pat, KJ, Vuc fit that category to me. Given the rest of the talent on the Celtics, Brown at $53 mill is a luxury. Their team looks like a 2k team, bunch of expensive starters, mostly minimum contract bench, still WAY over the cap with no relief in sight. One or two starters go down, you're starting Peyton Pritchard with nothing on the bench. Unless it's Porzingas, then you're starting Xavier Tillman or Neemas Queta.

Oh, and 2026 Jaylen Brown makes $57 mill and Tatum makes $58.5 mill. Jrue and Derrick White make a combined $65 mill. Porzingas has a $46 mill cap hold. If he gets that and they keep this starting squad together, cost is $226 mill just for the starters.
Jrue gets 20% of the cap. Brown gets 34%. Tatum gets 34%. White gets 17%. Porzingas cap hold is 27%. Something has to give, and trading the 34% contract helps more than the 20% one. Getting rid of both really, really helps.

A) If BOS wants to shave $, why would they start with their periennial allstar #2 option in Brown
B) If they were get rid of anyone, I could see them get rid of White because they have Pritchard on the bench. Holiday's contract is pretty terrible for the next couple years.
C) I think KP would go next. He's been very good, but you have injury risk there. I think there would be takers there.

[Infinity2152]

Coby makes 12.8M, Pat 18M, and Vuc 21.4M. That's 52M. The Celtics aren't saving much money here. If you add the FRP, the Celtics would have more money on the books for next season. In the short term, this trade would increase their payroll and tax bill.

It's 4 players for 1. If you're adding Coby and KJ this summer, you could easily try to dump Holiday this summer. They have no starting center next year as is, unless you count Porzingas. This gives them a center, 2 guards and a SF/PF. I mean , if you think Jaylen Brown's value to the team would exceed the combined contribution of adding all those players to the Celtics, ok. Think you're understating the value of getting pick 5 in this loaded draft too. That should be extremely valuable, could end up Ace Bailey or Dylan Harper. Don't think there's a player on this team outside of maybe Giddey we could trade and get the #5 pick. Probably not him either.

Looks like the Celtics have 11 players under contract next year and are already above the second cap with cap holds. Without them, they're well above the first apron. Of the 11 players left, 5 are Baylor Schierman, Neemias Quetas, Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh and Xavier Tillman. Unless they're running a 6 man rotation, turning Brown into Coby, KJ, Pat and Vuc cost a little more now but is a much deeper team with way more flexibility the next summer. When they sign three more players, those 3 players with Brown will undoubtedly be far more than Coby, Vuc, Pat, KJ, unless they're all minimum players. Again, Coby and Vuc's contracts are expiring, so phrase it how you want, that's $32.4 mill clear that won't be clear with Brown instead.

I liken it to the Suns situation. They would be far better if they could trade Beal for 3-4 starter level/near starter level players. Coby, Pat, KJ, Vuc fit that category to me. Given the rest of the talent on the Celtics, Brown at $53 mill is a luxury. Their team looks like a 2k team, bunch of expensive starters, mostly minimum contract bench, still WAY over the cap with no relief in sight. One or two starters go down, you're starting Peyton Pritchard with nothing on the bench. Unless it's Porzingas, then you're starting Xavier Tillman or Neemas Queta.

Oh, and 2026 Jaylen Brown makes $57 mill and Tatum makes $58.5 mill. Jrue and Derrick White make a combined $65 mill. Porzingas has a $46 mill cap hold. If he gets that and they keep this starting squad together, cost is $226 mill just for the starters.
Jrue gets 20% of the cap. Brown gets 34%. Tatum gets 34%. White gets 17%. Porzingas cap hold is 27%. Something has to give, and trading the 34% contract helps more than the 20% one. Getting rid of both really, really helps.

A) If BOS wants to shave $, why would they start with their periennial allstar #2 option in Brown
B) If they were get rid of anyone, I could see them get rid of White because they have Pritchard on the bench. Holiday's contract is pretty terrible for the next couple years.
C) I think KP would go next. He's been very good, but you have injury risk there. I think there would be takers there.

A) Because when you're cutting costs, you start with the biggest contracts. Jaylen Brown is 34% of the cap. Jayson Tatum about the same. You'd have to trade two starters, not one, to approach Brown's contract. Then there's the return. What young players, good contracts, draft picks are you expecting trading Holiday? We just watched Dallas trade Luka because of his contract, Brown's not even their best player. You're getting a top 5 pick in this draft. A player possibly as good or better than Brown, but on a cost controlled 4 year contract.

B) White might be the best value contract on that team. He's about half the cost of Brown. And you're not getting nearly the pick/player haul.

C) Porzingas goes. Who plays center? Tillman? Quetas? Who's playing PF besides Tatum? You're still way over the cap, what are you getting back for Porzingas, in your opinion? He's the one player you'd HAVE to immediately replace with a starter.

The Celtics are extremely top heavy and they're old. They're giving up the best player in this trade, but they're getting young talent in Coby, Pat, and the rookie at a cheaper price. Without knowing who the rookie is and how they turn out, they might not even be giving up the best player. Thought this was a super strong draft, 6-8 great prospects at least.

I'm operating on the assumption that at some point they want to get under the tax. That's going to be almost impossible with Brown and Tatum eating 68% of the cap, while putting a competitive team around them. Next year, Tatum and Brown will be the 1st and 4th highest paid players in the league. Is either one even a top 5 player? Top 10?

Anyway, my bad. Here I go again arguing about why the Celtics might want to do it. I'll just say, right or wrong, I think they might.

[2weekswithpay]

It's 4 players for 1. If you're adding Coby and KJ this summer, you could easily try to dump Holiday this summer. They have no starting center next year as is, unless you count Porzingas. This gives them a center, 2 guards and a SF/PF. I mean , if you think Jaylen Brown's value to the team would exceed the combined contribution of adding all those players to the Celtics, ok. Think you're understating the value of getting pick 5 in this loaded draft too. That should be extremely valuable, could end up Ace Bailey or Dylan Harper. Don't think there's a player on this team outside of maybe Giddey we could trade and get the #5 pick. Probably not him either.

Looks like the Celtics have 11 players under contract next year and are already above the second cap with cap holds. Without them, they're well above the first apron. Of the 11 players left, 5 are Baylor Schierman, Neemias Quetas, Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh and Xavier Tillman. Unless they're running a 6 man rotation, turning Brown into Coby, KJ, Pat and Vuc cost a little more now but is a much deeper team with way more flexibility the next summer. When they sign three more players, those 3 players with Brown will undoubtedly be far more than Coby, Vuc, Pat, KJ, unless they're all minimum players. Again, Coby and Vuc's contracts are expiring, so phrase it how you want, that's $32.4 mill clear that won't be clear with Brown instead.

I liken it to the Suns situation. They would be far better if they could trade Beal for 3-4 starter level/near starter level players. Coby, Pat, KJ, Vuc fit that category to me. Given the rest of the talent on the Celtics, Brown at $53 mill is a luxury. Their team looks like a 2k team, bunch of expensive starters, mostly minimum contract bench, still WAY over the cap with no relief in sight. One or two starters go down, you're starting Peyton Pritchard with nothing on the bench. Unless it's Porzingas, then you're starting Xavier Tillman or Neemas Queta.

Oh, and 2026 Jaylen Brown makes $57 mill and Tatum makes $58.5 mill. Jrue and Derrick White make a combined $65 mill. Porzingas has a $46 mill cap hold. If he gets that and they keep this starting squad together, cost is $226 mill just for the starters.
Jrue gets 20% of the cap. Brown gets 34%. Tatum gets 34%. White gets 17%. Porzingas cap hold is 27%. Something has to give, and trading the 34% contract helps more than the 20% one. Getting rid of both really, really helps.

Anyway, not going to keep arguing why it might make sense to the Celtics. Question is does it make sense for the Bulls? Seems like every time I offer a trade proposal, somebody comes up with reasons why the other team would never do that, lmao! The value is not drastically different, you'd need to trade a player near Jaylen Brown's level just for the number 5 pick in this draft, let alone all the additional players. Could Giddey, Brown, Matas be the core of a contender? Unless the Celtics consider Jaylen Brown untradeable for some reason and that never changes, there's a price they'll accept.

A lot of these commenters who think Coby, Pat and Vuc are all trash, of course it's automatic that any trade that includes them as important pieces will be rejected in their eyes. Then we have to have a whole different argument about how much each is worth individually and combined.

The point is to cut money though. The Celtics aren't cutting money with this trade so it doesn't make sense for them. Brown is currently more useful than all 3 players the Celtics are getting. Why do all this when you can simply keep the current roster intact and let KP walk in the summer? They don't get worse and cut a similar amount of money off the payroll. I follow the draft, Harper isn't falling all the way to 5, and Ace isn't that good.

The Celtics aren't saving much money if any and doesn't make them a better team in the short term which is the issue. The Celtics can fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and minimums. Hauser is in the Celtics' rotation, and Tillman played playoff minutes last season. The Celtics can play these guys and still be great.

Beal is a bad fit next to KD and Booker. Brown doesn't have the same issue.

The odd man out would be KP as I stated before. The Celtics could simply let him walk and look for cheap options at center or package Holiday + picks to address the 5 spot.

[Infinity2152]

It's 4 players for 1. If you're adding Coby and KJ this summer, you could easily try to dump Holiday this summer. They have no starting center next year as is, unless you count Porzingas. This gives them a center, 2 guards and a SF/PF. I mean , if you think Jaylen Brown's value to the team would exceed the combined contribution of adding all those players to the Celtics, ok. Think you're understating the value of getting pick 5 in this loaded draft too. That should be extremely valuable, could end up Ace Bailey or Dylan Harper. Don't think there's a player on this team outside of maybe Giddey we could trade and get the #5 pick. Probably not him either.

Looks like the Celtics have 11 players under contract next year and are already above the second cap with cap holds. Without them, they're well above the first apron. Of the 11 players left, 5 are Baylor Schierman, Neemias Quetas, Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh and Xavier Tillman. Unless they're running a 6 man rotation, turning Brown into Coby, KJ, Pat and Vuc cost a little more now but is a much deeper team with way more flexibility the next summer. When they sign three more players, those 3 players with Brown will undoubtedly be far more than Coby, Vuc, Pat, KJ, unless they're all minimum players. Again, Coby and Vuc's contracts are expiring, so phrase it how you want, that's $32.4 mill clear that won't be clear with Brown instead.

I liken it to the Suns situation. They would be far better if they could trade Beal for 3-4 starter level/near starter level players. Coby, Pat, KJ, Vuc fit that category to me. Given the rest of the talent on the Celtics, Brown at $53 mill is a luxury. Their team looks like a 2k team, bunch of expensive starters, mostly minimum contract bench, still WAY over the cap with no relief in sight. One or two starters go down, you're starting Peyton Pritchard with nothing on the bench. Unless it's Porzingas, then you're starting Xavier Tillman or Neemas Queta.

Oh, and 2026 Jaylen Brown makes $57 mill and Tatum makes $58.5 mill. Jrue and Derrick White make a combined $65 mill. Porzingas has a $46 mill cap hold. If he gets that and they keep this starting squad together, cost is $226 mill just for the starters.
Jrue gets 20% of the cap. Brown gets 34%. Tatum gets 34%. White gets 17%. Porzingas cap hold is 27%. Something has to give, and trading the 34% contract helps more than the 20% one. Getting rid of both really, really helps.

Anyway, not going to keep arguing why it might make sense to the Celtics. Question is does it make sense for the Bulls? Seems like every time I offer a trade proposal, somebody comes up with reasons why the other team would never do that, lmao! The value is not drastically different, you'd need to trade a player near Jaylen Brown's level just for the number 5 pick in this draft, let alone all the additional players. Could Giddey, Brown, Matas be the core of a contender? Unless the Celtics consider Jaylen Brown untradeable for some reason and that never changes, there's a price they'll accept.

A lot of these commenters who think Coby, Pat and Vuc are all trash, of course it's automatic that any trade that includes them as important pieces will be rejected in their eyes. Then we have to have a whole different argument about how much each is worth individually and combined.

The point is to cut money though. The Celtics aren't cutting money with this trade so it doesn't make sense for them. Brown is currently more useful than all 3 players the Celtics are getting. Why do all this when you can simply keep the current roster intact and let KP walk in the summer? They don't get worse and cut a similar amount of money off the payroll. I follow the draft, Harper isn't falling all the way to 5, and Ace isn't that good.

The Celtics aren't saving much money if any and doesn't make them a better team in the short term which is the issue. The Celtics can fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and minimums. Hauser is in the Celtics' rotation, and Tillman played playoff minutes last season. The Celtics can play these guys and still be great.

Beal is a bad fit next to KD and Booker. Brown doesn't have the same issue.

The odd man out would be KP as I stated before. The Celtics could simply let him walk and look for cheap options at center or package Holiday + picks to address the 5 spot.

You keep saying the Celtics aren't saving money. Let's try this again. Jaylen Brown is one player making $53 mill next year. Horford's gone. Porzingas rarely plays 60 games. If you want to exact match Brown to Coby, Vuc, Pat and #5 pick, that's 4 playable players. Three who have started much of their careers. So add three more salaries (one of them being a starting center) to Jaylen Brown to make it 4 Celtics players, then we're talking. The Celtics are not starting the season with 11 players. Then you keep acting like expiring contracts aren't valuable, and Coby plus Vuc is $32 mill expiring the next summer. Teams do plan ahead. Jaylen Brown would still be on the books for $57 mill that year for one player, vs the rookie contract, Pat Will's $18 mill, and whatever Coby re-signs for should you chose to re-sign him and don't trade him by deadline. No move you suggest is clearing much money this season, other than trading one into pure cap space, which ain't happening.

Not going to argue who's not going to fall in the draft in March, Matas wasn't falling to 11 either. KJ could leap into the top 5, so could several other players. Saying Ace isn't that good just means you're a better judge of players than every analyst in the world, most have him top 5 in a strong draft, so okay. Only opinion that would matter is the Celtics, and they do pretty good with top picks. Maybe they see VJ Edgecombe as the star and he's available.

Jaylen Brown is the number two option getting supermax. They're making an extremely expensive run right now while some of their core pieces (Horford, Holiday, Porzingas) still have some tread on them. It's championship or bust. I mean, all this talk about Zach making too much money and has to be traded to build a good team, and Brown is just as overpaid for a number 2. Far more so. Yet somehow he's untradeable and it's a good idea to keep paying supermax to two players. And neither is even top 5! Brown will be getting the fourth highest contract in the league, you're saying he's worth it as a number 2?

Because Celtics ownership will pay crazy amounts of money right now to keep this team together and deal with the penalties doesn't mean they'll keep doing so. Staying above those aprons limits you a lot more than just money. And rich people hate to lose money, that's how they get rich. With Horford gone, Holiday 35 and Porzingas always injured, that team isn't nearly the contender it is right now, even with Brown.

Let Porzinga walk, you downgrade at center. A lot, won't be able to afford anything but minimum contracts still. Trade Jrue. Think they're getting a starting caliber center or PG for Jrue? Are you clearing cap this year with that trade? No. Downgrading again. Either way, you're downgrading.

I get Brown's good, that's why I posed the question in the first place. I don't think any team can afford to pay two players supermax for long, the penalties are too severe and the league is too competitive. Tatum and Brown are not the best two player combos in the league, but they will be the most expensive. Those two players have to be so good, you can afford discount starters, and you need rookie talent on rookie contract to keep that going. One supermax contract is prohibitive. If Brown was Luka or Jokic, we could have a different conversation. Do you think Jaylen Brown is top 10?

[Dez]

Hilarious thinking we have the assets to get Jaylen Brown.

[2weekswithpay]

You keep saying the Celtics aren't saving money. Let's try this again. Jaylen Brown is one player making $53 mill next year. Horford's gone. Porzingas rarely plays 60 games. If you want to exact match Brown to Coby, Vuc, Pat and #5 pick, that's 4 playable players. Three who have started much of their careers. So add three more salaries (one of them being a starting center) to Jaylen Brown to make it 4 Celtics players, then we're talking. The Celtics are not starting the season with 11 players. Then you keep acting like expiring contracts aren't valuable, and Coby plus Vuc is $32 mill expiring the next summer. Teams do plan ahead. Jaylen Brown would still be on the books for $57 mill that year for one player, vs the rookie contract, Pat Will's $18 mill, and whatever Coby re-signs for should you chose to re-sign him and don't trade him by deadline. No move you suggest is clearing much money this season, other than trading one into pure cap space, which ain't happening.

Not going to argue who's not going to fall in the draft in March, Matas wasn't falling to 11 either. KJ could leap into the top 5, so could several other players. Saying Ace isn't that good just means you're a better judge of players than every analyst in the world, most have him top 5 in a strong draft, so okay. Only opinion that would matter is the Celtics, and they do pretty good with top picks. Maybe they see VJ Edgecombe as the star and he's available.

Jaylen Brown is the number two option getting supermax. They're making an extremely expensive run right now while some of their core pieces (Horford, Holiday, Porzingas) still have some tread on them. It's championship or bust. I mean, all this talk about Zach making too much money and has to be traded to build a good team, and Brown is just as overpaid for a number 2. Far more so. Yet somehow he's untradeable and it's a good idea to keep paying supermax to two players. And neither is even top 5! Brown will be getting the fourth highest contract in the league, you're saying he's worth it as a number 2?

Because Celtics ownership will pay crazy amounts of money right now to keep this team together and deal with the penalties doesn't mean they'll keep doing so. Staying above those aprons limits you a lot more than just money. And rich people hate to lose money, that's how they get rich. With Horford gone, Holiday 35 and Porzingas always injured, that team isn't nearly the contender it is right now, even with Brown.

Let Porzinga walk, you downgrade at center. A lot, won't be able to afford anything but minimum contracts still. Trade Jrue. Think they're getting a starting caliber center or PG for Jrue? Are you clearing cap this year with that trade? No. Downgrading again. Either way, you're downgrading.

I get Brown's good, that's why I posed the question in the first place. I don't think any team can afford to pay two players supermax for long, the penalties are too severe and the league is too competitive. Tatum and Brown are not the best two player combos in the league, but they will be the most expensive. Those two players have to be so good, you can afford discount starters, and you need rookie talent on rookie contract to keep that going. One supermax contract is prohibitive. If Brown was Luka or Jokic, we could have a different conversation. Do you think Jaylen Brown is top 10?

The Celtics aren't saving much money if any and doesn't make them a better team in the short term which is the issue. The Celtics can fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and minimums.

I've said this already, the Celtics have two draft picks they can use and vet minimums to fill out the rest of their bench. They would go into next season with similar money on their books 60M vs 58M. They aren't saving enough money to justify the drop in talent. Sure the Celtics can save as much money as they want if they're fine with gutting the roster and not being a contender. The Celtics won the title last season so yes Brown is worth paying 53M for them.

Brown (53M) Coby (12.8M)
Pick # 28 (2.5M) Pat (18M)
Pick # 31 (2-3M) Vuc (21.4)
Vet minimum (2.5M) Pick # 8 (6.2M) The Bulls can't get the 5th pick. It's either 1-4 or 8-12.

Neither Vuc, Coby, or Pat are starting caliber players on a 50+ win team. You're breaking Brown's contract into a replacement level player (Pat), an overpaid backup big that can't defend (Vuc), and a 6th man (Coby). Teams do plan ahead which is why KP and his 30M expiring will be seen as an opportunity to lower their tax bill. KP barely played in the playoffs last season and they still won. He is the odd man out if they need to shed salary.

I followed last year's draft as well, Matas was mocked anywhere from 5 to 12. I haven't seen Harper drop past 2nd overall in months. Ace Bailey isn't good enough to make sense of trading Brown and not getting back a single quality starter.

The Celtics aren't getting immediate cap relief. They get significantly worse in the short term and are stuck with Pat's 18M on their books for another 4 seasons. The only thing the Celtics get is cap relief in 2026-2027 and that's something they can do by letting KP walk and trading Holiday.

[Infinity2152]

You keep saying the Celtics aren't saving money. Let's try this again. Jaylen Brown is one player making $53 mill next year. Horford's gone. Porzingas rarely plays 60 games. If you want to exact match Brown to Coby, Vuc, Pat and #5 pick, that's 4 playable players. Three who have started much of their careers. So add three more salaries (one of them being a starting center) to Jaylen Brown to make it 4 Celtics players, then we're talking. The Celtics are not starting the season with 11 players. Then you keep acting like expiring contracts aren't valuable, and Coby plus Vuc is $32 mill expiring the next summer. Teams do plan ahead. Jaylen Brown would still be on the books for $57 mill that year for one player, vs the rookie contract, Pat Will's $18 mill, and whatever Coby re-signs for should you chose to re-sign him and don't trade him by deadline. No move you suggest is clearing much money this season, other than trading one into pure cap space, which ain't happening.

Not going to argue who's not going to fall in the draft in March, Matas wasn't falling to 11 either. KJ could leap into the top 5, so could several other players. Saying Ace isn't that good just means you're a better judge of players than every analyst in the world, most have him top 5 in a strong draft, so okay. Only opinion that would matter is the Celtics, and they do pretty good with top picks. Maybe they see VJ Edgecombe as the star and he's available.

Jaylen Brown is the number two option getting supermax. They're making an extremely expensive run right now while some of their core pieces (Horford, Holiday, Porzingas) still have some tread on them. It's championship or bust. I mean, all this talk about Zach making too much money and has to be traded to build a good team, and Brown is just as overpaid for a number 2. Far more so. Yet somehow he's untradeable and it's a good idea to keep paying supermax to two players. And neither is even top 5! Brown will be getting the fourth highest contract in the league, you're saying he's worth it as a number 2?

Because Celtics ownership will pay crazy amounts of money right now to keep this team together and deal with the penalties doesn't mean they'll keep doing so. Staying above those aprons limits you a lot more than just money. And rich people hate to lose money, that's how they get rich. With Horford gone, Holiday 35 and Porzingas always injured, that team isn't nearly the contender it is right now, even with Brown.

Let Porzinga walk, you downgrade at center. A lot, won't be able to afford anything but minimum contracts still. Trade Jrue. Think they're getting a starting caliber center or PG for Jrue? Are you clearing cap this year with that trade? No. Downgrading again. Either way, you're downgrading.

I get Brown's good, that's why I posed the question in the first place. I don't think any team can afford to pay two players supermax for long, the penalties are too severe and the league is too competitive. Tatum and Brown are not the best two player combos in the league, but they will be the most expensive. Those two players have to be so good, you can afford discount starters, and you need rookie talent on rookie contract to keep that going. One supermax contract is prohibitive. If Brown was Luka or Jokic, we could have a different conversation. Do you think Jaylen Brown is top 10?

The Celtics aren't saving much money if any and doesn't make them a better team in the short term which is the issue. The Celtics can fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and minimums.

I've said this already, the Celtics have two draft picks they can use and vet minimums to fill out the rest of their bench. They would go into next season with similar money on their books 60M vs 58M. They aren't saving enough money to justify the drop in talent. Sure the Celtics can save as much money as they want if they're fine with gutting the roster and not being a contender. The Celtics won the title last season so yes Brown is worth paying 53M for them.

Brown (53M) Coby (12.8M)
Pick # 28 (2.5M) Pat (18M)
Pick # 31 (2-3M) Vuc (21.4)
Vet minimum (2.5M) Pick # 8 (6.2M) The Bulls can't get the 5th pick. It's either 1-4 or 8-12.

Neither Vuc, Coby, or Pat are starting caliber players on a 50+ win team. You're breaking Brown's contract into a replacement level player (Pat), an overpaid backup big that can't defend (Vuc), and a 6th man (Coby). Teams do plan ahead which is why KP and his 30M expiring will be seen as an opportunity to lower their tax bill. KP barely played in the playoffs last season and they still won. He is the odd man out if they need to shed salary.

I followed last year's draft as well, Matas was mocked anywhere from 5 to 12. I haven't seen Harper drop past 2nd overall in months. Ace Bailey isn't good enough to make sense of trading Brown and not getting back a single quality starter.

The Celtics aren't getting immediate cap relief. They get significantly worse in the short term and are stuck with Pat's 18M on their books for another 4 seasons. The only thing the Celtics get is cap relief in 2026-2027 and that's something they can do by letting KP walk and trading Holiday.

The odds that pick 28 or pick 31 are playable on a championship contender have to be pretty low. You're equating turning one player into four as gutting the roster. Taking the second best player and trading him for a 18/11 durable center, 20 pt sixth man, and a number 5 pick is gutting the roster. You're taking one player and adding four. Your opinion of the Bulls players is clear. Your opinion of all the prospects that could be available at 5 seems to be pretty low. So if we differ so widely in how we view the pieces the Celtics are getting, we don't even have a common ground for discussion. Coby, Vuc, and that rookie probably play 70-80 minutes a night. Jaylen Brown averages 23, 6, and 5. That plus those two rookies won't come close to Vuc and Coby's points, rebounds, or assists. Brown's a good defender on a team that would have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Jayson Tatum and Porzingas starting. Start Vuc and that's still a top defensive team and better rebounding team. Coby's giving them 15-20. I know you think the number 5 pick is likely to be garbage but I'll take the over on league average.

If adding Coby, Pat, Vuc, pick 5 for Brown is gutting the team, let's just agree to disagree. Neutral corners. The actual question was should the Bulls do it, not would the Celtics do it. But I guess if he's worth it as a number two for the Celtics in cap hell, he must be worth it for us as a number 1.

[Infinity2152]

You keep saying the Celtics aren't saving money. Let's try this again. Jaylen Brown is one player making $53 mill next year. Horford's gone. Porzingas rarely plays 60 games. If you want to exact match Brown to Coby, Vuc, Pat and #5 pick, that's 4 playable players. Three who have started much of their careers. So add three more salaries (one of them being a starting center) to Jaylen Brown to make it 4 Celtics players, then we're talking. The Celtics are not starting the season with 11 players. Then you keep acting like expiring contracts aren't valuable, and Coby plus Vuc is $32 mill expiring the next summer. Teams do plan ahead. Jaylen Brown would still be on the books for $57 mill that year for one player, vs the rookie contract, Pat Will's $18 mill, and whatever Coby re-signs for should you chose to re-sign him and don't trade him by deadline. No move you suggest is clearing much money this season, other than trading one into pure cap space, which ain't happening.

Not going to argue who's not going to fall in the draft in March, Matas wasn't falling to 11 either. KJ could leap into the top 5, so could several other players. Saying Ace isn't that good just means you're a better judge of players than every analyst in the world, most have him top 5 in a strong draft, so okay. Only opinion that would matter is the Celtics, and they do pretty good with top picks. Maybe they see VJ Edgecombe as the star and he's available.

Jaylen Brown is the number two option getting supermax. They're making an extremely expensive run right now while some of their core pieces (Horford, Holiday, Porzingas) still have some tread on them. It's championship or bust. I mean, all this talk about Zach making too much money and has to be traded to build a good team, and Brown is just as overpaid for a number 2. Far more so. Yet somehow he's untradeable and it's a good idea to keep paying supermax to two players. And neither is even top 5! Brown will be getting the fourth highest contract in the league, you're saying he's worth it as a number 2?

Because Celtics ownership will pay crazy amounts of money right now to keep this team together and deal with the penalties doesn't mean they'll keep doing so. Staying above those aprons limits you a lot more than just money. And rich people hate to lose money, that's how they get rich. With Horford gone, Holiday 35 and Porzingas always injured, that team isn't nearly the contender it is right now, even with Brown.

Let Porzinga walk, you downgrade at center. A lot, won't be able to afford anything but minimum contracts still. Trade Jrue. Think they're getting a starting caliber center or PG for Jrue? Are you clearing cap this year with that trade? No. Downgrading again. Either way, you're downgrading.

I get Brown's good, that's why I posed the question in the first place. I don't think any team can afford to pay two players supermax for long, the penalties are too severe and the league is too competitive. Tatum and Brown are not the best two player combos in the league, but they will be the most expensive. Those two players have to be so good, you can afford discount starters, and you need rookie talent on rookie contract to keep that going. One supermax contract is prohibitive. If Brown was Luka or Jokic, we could have a different conversation. Do you think Jaylen Brown is top 10?

The Celtics aren't saving much money if any and doesn't make them a better team in the short term which is the issue. The Celtics can fill out the rest of the roster with draft picks and minimums.

I've said this already, the Celtics have two draft picks they can use and vet minimums to fill out the rest of their bench. They would go into next season with similar money on their books 60M vs 58M. They aren't saving enough money to justify the drop in talent. Sure the Celtics can save as much money as they want if they're fine with gutting the roster and not being a contender. The Celtics won the title last season so yes Brown is worth paying 53M for them.

Brown (53M) Coby (12.8M)
Pick # 28 (2.5M) Pat (18M)
Pick # 31 (2-3M) Vuc (21.4)
Vet minimum (2.5M) Pick # 8 (6.2M) The Bulls can't get the 5th pick. It's either 1-4 or 8-12.

Neither Vuc, Coby, or Pat are starting caliber players on a 50+ win team. You're breaking Brown's contract into a replacement level player (Pat), an overpaid backup big that can't defend (Vuc), and a 6th man (Coby). Teams do plan ahead which is why KP and his 30M expiring will be seen as an opportunity to lower their tax bill. KP barely played in the playoffs last season and they still won. He is the odd man out if they need to shed salary.

I followed last year's draft as well, Matas was mocked anywhere from 5 to 12. I haven't seen Harper drop past 2nd overall in months. Ace Bailey isn't good enough to make sense of trading Brown and not getting back a single quality starter.

The Celtics aren't getting immediate cap relief. They get significantly worse in the short term and are stuck with Pat's 18M on their books for another 4 seasons. The only thing the Celtics get is cap relief in 2026-2027 and that's something they can do by letting KP walk and trading Holiday.

The odds that pick 28 or pick 31 are playable on a championship contender have to be pretty low. You're equating turning one player into four as gutting the roster. Taking the second best player and trading him for a 18/11 durable center, 20 pt sixth man, and a number 5 pick is gutting the roster. You're taking one player and adding four. Your opinion of the Bulls players is clear. Your opinion of all the prospects that could be available at 5 seems to be pretty low. So if we differ so widely in how we view the pieces the Celtics are getting, we don't even have a common ground for discussion. Coby, Vuc, and that rookie probably play 70-80 minutes a night. Jaylen Brown averages 23, 6, and 5. That plus those two rookies won't come close to Vuc and Coby's points, rebounds, or assists. Brown's a good defender on a team that would have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Jayson Tatum and Porzingas starting. Start Vuc and that's still a top defensive team and better rebounding team. Coby's giving them 15-20. I know you think the number 5 pick is likely to be garbage but I'll take the over on league average.

I guess we could go around in circle about the fact that I said there's no way they're getting immediate cap relief. Don't know why you keep bringing it up. Teams pick up expirings every single year. They don't get immediate cap relief. They get cap relief in the summer. That's how expirings work. They could still release Porzingas in the summer and certainly should try to dump Jrue, which will be difficult. But instead of $30 mill coming off for just Porzingas, there would be $62 mill gone for Porzingas, Coby and Vuc. Except you're not saving $30 mill losing Porzingas because you need to pay a starting center in his place anyway. Some recent comments on how important Porzingas is:

Porzingis' absence raises concerns for Celtics' playoff hopes.

Key takeaways

Kristaps Porzingis has been ruled out for the seventh consecutive game due to a non-COVID illness, raising concerns about his health and the Celtics' performancemsn.com.
The Celtics have struggled without Porzingis, as his unique skills in 3-point shooting and rim defense are hard to replace, impacting their overall team dynamicsmsn.com+2.
Fans are anxious about the potential long-term effects of Porzingis' illness, as he has missed significant playing time recently, which could jeopardize his season and the team's playoff aspirationsbostonglobe.com


If adding Coby, Pat, Vuc, pick 5 for Brown is gutting the team, let's just agree to disagree. Neutral corners. The actual question was should the Bulls do it, not would the Celtics do it. But I guess if he's worth it as a number two for the Celtics in cap hell, he must be worth it for us as a number 1.

[sco]

I've said this already, the Celtics have two draft picks they can use and vet minimums to fill out the rest of their bench. They would go into next season with similar money on their books 60M vs 58M. They aren't saving enough money to justify the drop in talent. Sure the Celtics can save as much money as they want if they're fine with gutting the roster and not being a contender. The Celtics won the title last season so yes Brown is worth paying 53M for them.

Brown (53M) Coby (12.8M)
Pick # 28 (2.5M) Pat (18M)
Pick # 31 (2-3M) Vuc (21.4)
Vet minimum (2.5M) Pick # 8 (6.2M) The Bulls can't get the 5th pick. It's either 1-4 or 8-12.

Neither Vuc, Coby, or Pat are starting caliber players on a 50+ win team. You're breaking Brown's contract into a replacement level player (Pat), an overpaid backup big that can't defend (Vuc), and a 6th man (Coby). Teams do plan ahead which is why KP and his 30M expiring will be seen as an opportunity to lower their tax bill. KP barely played in the playoffs last season and they still won. He is the odd man out if they need to shed salary.

I followed last year's draft as well, Matas was mocked anywhere from 5 to 12. I haven't seen Harper drop past 2nd overall in months. Ace Bailey isn't good enough to make sense of trading Brown and not getting back a single quality starter.

The Celtics aren't getting immediate cap relief. They get significantly worse in the short term and are stuck with Pat's 18M on their books for another 4 seasons. The only thing the Celtics get is cap relief in 2026-2027 and that's something they can do by letting KP walk and trading Holiday.

The odds that pick 28 or pick 31 are playable on a championship contender have to be pretty low. You're equating turning one player into four as gutting the roster. Taking the second best player and trading him for a 18/11 durable center, 20 pt sixth man, and a number 5 pick is gutting the roster. You're taking one player and adding four. Your opinion of the Bulls players is clear. Your opinion of all the prospects that could be available at 5 seems to be pretty low. So if we differ so widely in how we view the pieces the Celtics are getting, we don't even have a common ground for discussion. Coby, Vuc, and that rookie probably play 70-80 minutes a night. Jaylen Brown averages 23, 6, and 5. That plus those two rookies won't come close to Vuc and Coby's points, rebounds, or assists. Brown's a good defender on a team that would have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Jayson Tatum and Porzingas starting. Start Vuc and that's still a top defensive team and better rebounding team. Coby's giving them 15-20. I know you think the number 5 pick is likely to be garbage but I'll take the over on league average.

I guess we could go around in circle about the fact that I said there's no way they're getting immediate cap relief. Don't know why you keep bringing it up. Teams pick up expirings every single year. They don't get immediate cap relief. They get cap relief in the summer. That's how expirings work. They could still release Porzingas in the summer and certainly should try to dump Jrue, which will be difficult. But instead of $30 mill coming off for just Porzingas, there would be $62 mill gone for Porzingas, Coby and Vuc. Except you're not saving $30 mill losing Porzingas because you need to pay a starting center in his place anyway. Some recent comments on how important Porzingas is:

Porzingis' absence raises concerns for Celtics' playoff hopes.

Key takeaways

Kristaps Porzingis has been ruled out for the seventh consecutive game due to a non-COVID illness, raising concerns about his health and the Celtics' performancemsn.com.
The Celtics have struggled without Porzingis, as his unique skills in 3-point shooting and rim defense are hard to replace, impacting their overall team dynamicsmsn.com+2.
Fans are anxious about the potential long-term effects of Porzingis' illness, as he has missed significant playing time recently, which could jeopardize his season and the team's playoff aspirationsbostonglobe.com


If adding Coby, Pat, Vuc, pick 5 for Brown is gutting the team, let's just agree to disagree. Neutral corners. The actual question was should the Bulls do it, not would the Celtics do it. But I guess if he's worth it as a number two for the Celtics in cap hell, he must be worth it for us as a number 1.

I get your premise, BUT championship teams just don't trade away their 2nd best player while they are at the top of their game. I guess if he specifically sucks so bad in the playoffs that they get swept in the first round, maybe...but probably not even then. Only way Brown leaves is if he decides he can't coexist with Tatum...again not happening.

[Infinity2152]

What I'm saying is teams pay more for championship teams. This team as constructed is a championship team with Tatum and Brown because they have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Al Horford and Porzingas. That's 3-4 other star level starters, but they're old. Talking about level in terms of impact and experience. They're not just going to replace those guys, they're way out of money and drafting super low. Don't think that team is a championship team without Porzingas and Horford, replaced by a mid to low center. Jrue replaced by another low cost player. There's a fundamental problem with paying 2 guys 68% of the cap on a 15 man team with 5 starters. They're kicking the money can down the line, but it's increasingly expensive. They're not a top contender in two years with Tatum, Brown, their low drafted rookies and whatever minimum players they can afford, imo. At some point you need to get out of repeater tax status. Not sure if they'll be a top contender next year if they let Porzingas walk, Horford retires and Jrue's potential decline.

Does anybody actually think Jaylen Brown is not wildly overpaid for a number 2? This only looks okay if you make the Finals, paying over $50 mill in luxury tax? I think Brown could be a number 1 on a team, but I don't think he's a top 10 player, and he's getting the fourth highest salary next year.

[sco]

What I'm saying is teams pay more for championship teams. This team as constructed is a championship team with Tatum and Brown because they have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Al Horford and Porzingas. That's 3-4 other star level starters, but they're old. Talking about level in terms of impact and experience. They're not just going to replace those guys, they're way out of money and drafting super low. Don't think that team is a championship team without Porzingas and Horford, replaced by a mid to low center. Jrue replaced by another low cost player. There's a fundamental problem with paying 2 guys 68% of the cap on a 15 man team with 5 starters. They're kicking the money can down the line, but it's increasingly expensive. They're not a top contender in two years with Tatum, Brown, their low drafted rookies and whatever minimum players they can afford, imo. At some point you need to get out of repeater tax status. Not sure if they'll be a top contender next year if they let Porzingas walk, Horford retires and Jrue's potential decline.

Does anybody actually think Jaylen Brown is not wildly overpaid for a number 2? This only looks okay if you make the Finals, paying over $50 mill in luxury tax? I think Brown could be a number 1 on a team, but I don't think he's a top 10 player, and he's getting the fourth highest salary next year.

So is your point that they should be trading Brown this offseason, even if they win a championship?

[Infinity2152]

What I'm saying is teams pay more for championship teams. This team as constructed is a championship team with Tatum and Brown because they have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Al Horford and Porzingas. That's 3-4 other star level starters, but they're old. Talking about level in terms of impact and experience. They're not just going to replace those guys, they're way out of money and drafting super low. Don't think that team is a championship team without Porzingas and Horford, replaced by a mid to low center. Jrue replaced by another low cost player. There's a fundamental problem with paying 2 guys 68% of the cap on a 15 man team with 5 starters. They're kicking the money can down the line, but it's increasingly expensive. They're not a top contender in two years with Tatum, Brown, their low drafted rookies and whatever minimum players they can afford, imo. At some point you need to get out of repeater tax status. Not sure if they'll be a top contender next year if they let Porzingas walk, Horford retires and Jrue's potential decline.

Does anybody actually think Jaylen Brown is not wildly overpaid for a number 2? This only looks okay if you make the Finals, paying over $50 mill in luxury tax? I think Brown could be a number 1 on a team, but I don't think he's a top 10 player, and he's getting the fourth highest salary next year.

So is your point that they should be trading Brown this offseason, even if they win a championship?

My point was never could they or should they. My question was would it be good for the Bulls. The conversation devolved into whether the Celtics should do it. But, yes, I think trading Jaylen Brown is best for their long term future, unless they trade Tatum. There's a reason no other team in the league is willing to pay two supermax contracts. If they can get three good-great young players in a trade, it's much more financially feasible to keep a good team around Tatum.

Their chances of winning a championship with their current roster, minus Horford and with everybody getting older, are not nearly as good next year as they are this year, imo. While they get older, Cleveland, SA and OKC are running much younger teams.

Just a lot of arguments about what the Celtics won't do, like anybody has any idea what their financial plans are. This was about clearing money for 2026 and maybe getting under the tax. Wasn't about improving the team player-wise. To cut money, you usually lose some talent. Don't see how anybody could know how important Celtic's think it is, or what they think their chances of returning to the Finals next year with this same team. I'll repeat, at no point do I think anybody thought Dallas would trade Luka. He's paired with a superstar, similar to Brown, and was on a contending team. And he and Kyrie are better than Tatum and Brown, imo.

[sco]

What I'm saying is teams pay more for championship teams. This team as constructed is a championship team with Tatum and Brown because they have Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Al Horford and Porzingas. That's 3-4 other star level starters, but they're old. Talking about level in terms of impact and experience. They're not just going to replace those guys, they're way out of money and drafting super low. Don't think that team is a championship team without Porzingas and Horford, replaced by a mid to low center. Jrue replaced by another low cost player. There's a fundamental problem with paying 2 guys 68% of the cap on a 15 man team with 5 starters. They're kicking the money can down the line, but it's increasingly expensive. They're not a top contender in two years with Tatum, Brown, their low drafted rookies and whatever minimum players they can afford, imo. At some point you need to get out of repeater tax status. Not sure if they'll be a top contender next year if they let Porzingas walk, Horford retires and Jrue's potential decline.

Does anybody actually think Jaylen Brown is not wildly overpaid for a number 2? This only looks okay if you make the Finals, paying over $50 mill in luxury tax? I think Brown could be a number 1 on a team, but I don't think he's a top 10 player, and he's getting the fourth highest salary next year.

So is your point that they should be trading Brown this offseason, even if they win a championship?

My point was never could they or should they. My question was would it be good for the Bulls. The conversation devolved into whether the Celtics should do it. But, yes, I think trading Jaylen Brown is best for their long term future, unless they trade Tatum. There's a reason no other team in the league is willing to pay two supermax contracts. If they can get three good-great young players in a trade, it's much more financially feasible to keep a good team around Tatum.

Their chances of winning a championship with their current roster, minus Horford and with everybody getting older, are not nearly as good next year as they are this year, imo. While they get older, Cleveland, SA and OKC are running much younger teams.

OK, but you aren't suggesting that if they win the title again (current best odds) that they should blow it up in the offseason, are you?

[Infinity2152]

So is your point that they should be trading Brown this offseason, even if they win a championship?

My point was never could they or should they. My question was would it be good for the Bulls. The conversation devolved into whether the Celtics should do it. But, yes, I think trading Jaylen Brown is best for their long term future, unless they trade Tatum. There's a reason no other team in the league is willing to pay two supermax contracts. If they can get three good-great young players in a trade, it's much more financially feasible to keep a good team around Tatum.

Their chances of winning a championship with their current roster, minus Horford and with everybody getting older, are not nearly as good next year as they are this year, imo. While they get older, Cleveland, SA and OKC are running much younger teams.

OK, but you aren't suggesting that if they win the title again (current best odds) that they should blow it up in the offseason, are you?

Yes. I'm not talking about blowing it up, we're talking taking 1 player and adding 3. Don't know how this keeps getting compared to blowing it up. Most of what Jaylen Brown provides can be provided by Tatum and Derrick White. I'm talking about extending their window by adding three young players and clearing cap so they can make trades. Apron penalties severely limit trades and acquisitions.

Let's just say they draft VJ Edgecombe, for instance. Is adding Edgecombe, Coby, Vuc and Pat for Brown a blow up move if Edgecombe is good? Or did you trade some starter impact for far more depth? I'm getting the feeling that adding Coby, Vuc, Edgecombe and Pat has no positive value for the Celtics, or minimal at best. It's all subtraction for the Celtics. We've argued ad infinitum about the Bulls players value, but however people want to feel, Vuc is an NBA starter, Coby is at least sixth man quality, Pat could be an effective 3 and D wing over there, and the rookie could be better than Brown.

I'd also argue Porzingas is more valuable to that team. Brown plays SG, White or Jrue can play that. Nobody on that team provides rebounding and rim protection like Porzingas, and again, Horford may retire and he's old. Tatum can do anything Brown does. His contributions are replacable.

[sco]

My point was never could they or should they. My question was would it be good for the Bulls. The conversation devolved into whether the Celtics should do it. But, yes, I think trading Jaylen Brown is best for their long term future, unless they trade Tatum. There's a reason no other team in the league is willing to pay two supermax contracts. If they can get three good-great young players in a trade, it's much more financially feasible to keep a good team around Tatum.

Their chances of winning a championship with their current roster, minus Horford and with everybody getting older, are not nearly as good next year as they are this year, imo. While they get older, Cleveland, SA and OKC are running much younger teams.

OK, but you aren't suggesting that if they win the title again (current best odds) that they should blow it up in the offseason, are you?

Yes. I'm not talking about blowing it up, we're talking taking 1 player and adding 3. Don't know how this keeps getting compared to blowing it up. Most of what Jaylen Brown provides can be provided by Tatum and Derrick White. I'm talking about extending their window by adding three young players and clearing cap so they can make trades. Apron penalties severely limit trades and acquisitions.

Let's just say they draft VJ Edgecombe, for instance. Is adding Edgecombe, Coby, Vuc and Pat for Brown a blow up move if Edgecombe is good? Or did you trade some starter impact for far more depth? I'm getting the feeling that adding Coby, Vuc, Edgecombe and Pat has no positive value for the Celtics, or minimal at best. It's all subtraction for the Celtics. We've argued ad infinitum about the Bulls players value, but however people want to feel, Vuc is an NBA starter, Coby is at least sixth man quality, Pat could be an effective 3 and D wing over there, and the rookie could be better than Brown.

Ok. That's clearer. I think there is ZERO chance of that.

[Infinity2152]

OK, but you aren't suggesting that if they win the title again (current best odds) that they should blow it up in the offseason, are you?

Yes. I'm not talking about blowing it up, we're talking taking 1 player and adding 3. Don't know how this keeps getting compared to blowing it up. Most of what Jaylen Brown provides can be provided by Tatum and Derrick White. I'm talking about extending their window by adding three young players and clearing cap so they can make trades. Apron penalties severely limit trades and acquisitions.

Let's just say they draft VJ Edgecombe, for instance. Is adding Edgecombe, Coby, Vuc and Pat for Brown a blow up move if Edgecombe is good? Or did you trade some starter impact for far more depth? I'm getting the feeling that adding Coby, Vuc, Edgecombe and Pat has no positive value for the Celtics, or minimal at best. It's all subtraction for the Celtics. We've argued ad infinitum about the Bulls players value, but however people want to feel, Vuc is an NBA starter, Coby is at least sixth man quality, Pat could be an effective 3 and D wing over there, and the rookie could be better than Brown.

Ok. That's clearer. I think there is ZERO chance of that.

Zero chance of what? The number 5 pick being better than Jaylen Brown? Exactly where do you rank Jaylen Brown if there's ZERO chance of that? Can name a lot of people picked 5th or later as good or better than Jaylen Brown. Looks like #5 picks have a 30% chance of being an Allstar. Way better than the odds of success tanking, and nobody has a problem with that.

[sco]

Yes. I'm not talking about blowing it up, we're talking taking 1 player and adding 3. Don't know how this keeps getting compared to blowing it up. Most of what Jaylen Brown provides can be provided by Tatum and Derrick White. I'm talking about extending their window by adding three young players and clearing cap so they can make trades. Apron penalties severely limit trades and acquisitions.

Let's just say they draft VJ Edgecombe, for instance. Is adding Edgecombe, Coby, Vuc and Pat for Brown a blow up move if Edgecombe is good? Or did you trade some starter impact for far more depth? I'm getting the feeling that adding Coby, Vuc, Edgecombe and Pat has no positive value for the Celtics, or minimal at best. It's all subtraction for the Celtics. We've argued ad infinitum about the Bulls players value, but however people want to feel, Vuc is an NBA starter, Coby is at least sixth man quality, Pat could be an effective 3 and D wing over there, and the rookie could be better than Brown.

Ok. That's clearer. I think there is ZERO chance of that.

Zero chance of what? The number 5 pick being better than Jaylen Brown? Exactly where do you rank Jaylen Brown if there's ZERO chance of that? Can name a lot of people picked 5th or later as good or better than Jaylen Brown. Looks like #5 picks have a 30% chance of being an Allstar.

Zero chance BOS trades him this offseason.

[Infinity2152]

Ok. That's clearer. I think there is ZERO chance of that.

Zero chance of what? The number 5 pick being better than Jaylen Brown? Exactly where do you rank Jaylen Brown if there's ZERO chance of that? Can name a lot of people picked 5th or later as good or better than Jaylen Brown. Looks like #5 picks have a 30% chance of being an Allstar.

Zero chance BOS trades him this offseason.

And that's fine. If everyone wants to view the trade from Boston eye's and think they know what Boston wants and will do, that's fine. Reason I said I'm not saying Boston will or won't is because I acknowledge that there's no way I know Boston's plans or priorities. We don't even know what direction the Bulls are going. I've laid out multiple reasons it could make sense for Boston, if people want to ignore those reasons as fantastical or illogical, so be it. When I see ZERO chance, that shows me we're arguing on opinions. Of course there's a chance, no matter how small you think it is. There was ZERO chance Dallas would trade Luka for AD this year I'm quite sure in fan's opinions. Because we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And there's literally no way to prove it, unless you're privy to ALL of Boston's back room discussions. Pat Riley said "We are not trading Jimmy Butler!". Next week, "We are trading Jimmy Butler!".

Why I hate the will they, won't they conversations. They're pointless and unproveable, and not even germane to the question. We can all come up with reasons to support our opinions. I could ask, in NBA history what's the longest any team has paid two super max players? Has it even happened before? Supermax has been around long enough for it to easily have happened before. Tatum is just getting to his supermax next year, Celtics haven't even done it once yet.

So the argument is there's a 100% chance the Celtics will do something that's never been done before. And that there are no players that the Celtics would accept in trade for Jaylen Brown. Since there's a 0% chance he gets traded.

[sco]

Zero chance of what? The number 5 pick being better than Jaylen Brown? Exactly where do you rank Jaylen Brown if there's ZERO chance of that? Can name a lot of people picked 5th or later as good or better than Jaylen Brown. Looks like #5 picks have a 30% chance of being an Allstar.

Zero chance BOS trades him this offseason.

And that's fine. If everyone wants to view the trade from Boston eye's and think they know what Boston wants and will do, that's fine. Reason I said I'm not saying Boston will or won't is because I acknowledge that there's no way I know Boston's plans or priorities. We don't even know what direction the Bulls are going. I've laid out multiple reasons it could make sense for Boston, if people want to ignore those reasons as fantastical or illogical, so be it. When I see ZERO chance, that shows me we're arguing on opinions. Of course there's a chance, no matter how small you think it is. There was ZERO chance Dallas would trade Luka for AD this year I'm quite sure in fan's opinions. Because we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And there's literally no way to prove it, unless you're privy to ALL of Boston's back room discussions. Pat Riley said "We are not trading Jimmy Butler!". Next week, "We are trading Jimmy Butler!".

Sure. And if they were willing to trade him, I would agree with you.