Masai: "Scottie isn't a shot maker right now but that will grow. You build around him for his winning mentality"

[MiamiSPX]

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

[tsherkin]

I don't think that belief was that ridiculous last summer, it just looks silly now. Realistically he's way underperformed expectations this season at least offensively.

I definitely felt it was even then, but then, I have been pessimistic about our approach to him the entire time, so there's that.

100% this.

Players can still be stars & championship calibre players without shooting 40% from 3 or averaging 25ppg.

This is true, if misleading.

No one is expecting Barnes to shoot 40%+ from 3, and no one is really expecting him to score 25 ppg at the moment. We're hoping that he could suck a little less in terms of what scoring he does do, though, so that he exerts a more palpably positive impact on the offense and isn't such a sinkhole in our offensive attack. His D is great. His rebounding is strong. He's a nice playmaker, though perhaps not focal-level at this time. He's got a "far crappier Jason Kidd" kind of vibe to him at the moment, and that's both intriguing and problematic all at once.

If he could figure out how not to be a horrible scorer, then he would become a legitimate All-Star, for sure.

The phrase "championship calibre" requires some clarity, though. Most use it to describe someone who is a championship calibre centerpiece, which Barnes has no real prayer of becoming. I feel like you're probably using it a different way, though, so I'm curious what it means to you so that I don't go running off in the wrong direction.

[MEDIC]

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

I felt that way at the beginning of he season (no excuses, time to put your big boy pants on). I have kind.of.settled in now & accepted what kind of player he is. Maybe the BI trade helped with that.

[raincityraptors]

What player in the history of sports has been handed a franchise and a max contract based on his "winning mentality"?

What self-respecting fanbase would accept that kind of answer? NBA basketball isn't played in people's minds

I have been defending Scottie to hoop heads here in Texas all year while they have made good points about him not playing to his strengths on offence to live out his pull up shooting fantasies of being a point guard and spending way too much time barking at refs.

That's winning mentality? Is blowing dunks because you want to troll players winning mentality too?

When Ingram was brought in, I wondered if Masai thought he messed up trying to hand the franchise to Barnes.

This is the kind of spin Masai is beautiful at. It's cool to say this the year before he is earning the max.

When he's taking up 25% of the cap next year, we should all expect him to play like it (not just mentally in his head).

On another note, everyone I know is singing Ingram's praises. He's just coming into his prime and the upside on that deal is real.

[MiamiSPX]

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

I felt that way at the beginning of he season (no excuses, time to put your big boy pants on). I have kind.of.settled in now & accepted what kind of player he is. Maybe the BI trade helped with that.

I can agree with that. And to be clear, I am not expecting him to be a bonafide top guy on a contending team. I actually don't think any of the guys from his draft class will be, and have been saying that since last season. But man, I just want to see that trajectory line going the right way, even if it's at a snail's pace. Right now it's up and down IMO.

[Duffman100]

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

This is why I said by halfway the 3rd year, I was saying that excuses were getting Bargnani esque. Yes Barnes is obviously WAY better than him, but just some of excuses felt like they were avoiding the actual issue.

[PushDaRock]

I don't think that belief was that ridiculous last summer, it just looks silly now. Realistically he's way underperformed expectations this season at least offensively.

I definitely felt it was even then, but then, I have been pessimistic about our approach to him the entire time, so there's that.

100% this.

Players can still be stars & championship calibre players without shooting 40% from 3 or averaging 25ppg.

This is true, if misleading.

No one is expecting Barnes to shoot 40%+ from 3, and no one is really expecting him to score 25 ppg at the moment. We're hoping that he could suck a little less in terms of what scoring he does do, though, so that he exerts a more palpably positive impact on the offense and isn't such a sinkhole in our offensive attack. His D is great. His rebounding is strong. He's a nice playmaker, though perhaps not focal-level at this time. He's got a "far crappier Jason Kidd" kind of vibe to him at the moment, and that's both intriguing and problematic all at once.

If he could figure out how not to be a horrible scorer, then he would become a legitimate All-Star, for sure.

The phrase "championship calibre" requires some clarity, though. Most use it to describe someone who is a championship calibre centerpiece, which Barnes has no real prayer of becoming. I feel like you're probably using it a different way, though, so I'm curious what it means to you so that I don't go running off in the wrong direction.

Potential to be doesn't necessarily mean they expected it to happen. There probably was a path for him to top 10 player in the league if that 13 game run last season was for real and could be built on but unfortunately it does not look like it was.

[Raps in 4]

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

I was a big Scottie stan and would constantly excuse his poor play, with the expectation that he'd improve eventually. He was a young, promising player. But now we're at the end of year 4, and the improvements to his game I was expecting have yet to materialize.

[tsherkin]

Potential to be doesn't necessarily mean they expected it to happen. There probably was a path for him to top 10 player in the league if that 13 game run last season was for real and could be built on but unfortunately it does not look like it was.

I understand that potential and realization are different. I really don't think such a path ever existed, though. Even WITH him shooting the 3 almost competently, he had only one full month of league-average or better efficiency. And that was him at 52.2/40.4/76.5, drawing at .226. That was never going to maintain, particularly given that he was shooting north of 40% from ATB in December (that specific month). I think we're all clear that this was a hot streak, and he was so super-reliant upon that level of shooting to bootstrap his efficiency that it was also clear that it was a big-time mirage. But that represented like 22% of his full season, so the final numbers make him look better than was actually reasonable to infer.

[MEDIC]

.If he could figure out how not to be a horrible scorer, then he would become a legitimate All-Star, for sure.

I agree with this. I had the same.frustratioms at the beginning of the season. I do think he has the talent to become a legit 2nd option. Maybe even 1st. He just doesn't seem to be wired that way & I think it is going to take time. I do like the player that we currently have though.

The phrase "championship calibre" requires some clarity, though. Most use it to describe someone who is a championship calibre centerpiece, which Barnes has no real prayer of becoming. I feel like you're probably using it a different way, though, so I'm curious what it means to you so that I don't go running off in the wrong direction.

I think Scottie will be a winning player. He has atributes that I like. He has no fear. He has a big/ strong / lengthy body & he doesn't back down from anybody. He has gravity. Even if he is having a poor scoring game, other teams still view his as a threat & the doubles will come. He has great court vision & passing skills so that gravity can be used to create good shots for others. He has a good midrange and postup game. Its not like he can't score efficiently. Spacing will help.him get his game off as we add talent to the roster. His defense can be 1st team all NBA level. The defense on this team takes a massive nosedive when he is injured.

I view Draymond as a championship piece. I view Dennis Rodman as a championship piece. Kyle Lowry. Chauncy Billups. Guys that have a cockiness about them & an extreme compete level. Guys that are aggressive and physical & will do what is necessary to win. All the guys listed above have winning qualities about them.

He is kind of a glue guy on steroids right now.

Aa far as his ceiling goes (from an impact standpiint), I think it could be KG level, but we won't know until he reaches his prime years & has a contending level roster around him.

I do think Scottie has the "it" factor though. Similar to what we saw in Kyle in his early years with the Raptors.

[tsherkin]

I do think he has the talent to become a legit 2nd option. Maybe even 1st.

I do not. Too slow, can't shoot, literally nothing elite about him in tools or skill set. Doesn't track. He has nothing to leverage to be that level of scorer, and his incremental progress creates a career arc which projects far too slow for us to wait in the prayer that he DeRozans himself to a level too low to be worth that investment anyway.

He just doesn't seem to be wired that way & I think it is going to take time. I do like the player that we currently have though.

I'd be more sanguine about it if we were paying him appropriate to being a defensive roleplayer who has some extra ballhandling duties, to be honest. I'm waiting and hoping that he will do what he didn't in his first two years and learn how to be an off-ball guy of at least acceptable efficiency on reduced usage when we have BI here, though. It is a change of environment and context, so there's SOME hope, but he wasn't impressive in his first two years in that respect, so I'm not holding my breath.

I view Draymond as a championship piece. I view Dennis Rodman as a championship piece. Kyle Lowry. Chauncy Billups. Guys that have a cockiness about them & an extreme compete level. Guys that are aggressive and physical & will do what is necessary to win. All the guys listed above have winning qualities about them.

Okay, so you mean "can feature in a role on a contending team." Copy that.

I can see that too, as long as we have real scorers ahead of him. Filling a Draymond-ish role seems about his speed. That potential is pretty good, as Draymond is a 4-time All-Star who touched the All-NBA teams twice (2nd team once, 3rd team another time) and won a DPOY. I'd be thrilled to have Scottie turn into that type of player.

Aa far as his ceiling goes (from an impact standpiint), I think it could be KG level, but we won't know until he reaches his prime years & has a contending level roster around him.

That seems a massive stretch to me, given how much better a scorer Garnett was. Like, even taking KG's raw TS% from his actual career, he was superior to Scottie now and two years ago, which is not at all a flattering thing to say about Barnes.

But yeah, the traits everyone loved about him pre-draft remain his actual leverage-able skills today, and he's pretty good at them. We just need to stop trying to ice skate uphill with him as a scorer.

[sidsid]

Agreed. Like I have said in other threads.......if Iggy & KG had a baby, that is Scottie Barnes. He is somewhere in between those two.

You can't tell.me that player isn't a winning player.

It's a big assumption to characterize Barnes as a better player than Iguodala.

Also, you can't build around Iguodala for exactly the same reason you can't build around OG even though they're both winning players.

Prime Iggy was a better player than Barnes is right now for sure, but Barnes is 4-5 years away from his prime.

I agree with your last comment. I believe Scottie in his prime will be better all aound player than OG & Iggy though. If he isn't, the Raps will still have a hell.of a player.

Building around Scottie is not the same as building around Lebron. Right now, Scotie needs scorers around him. Better scorers than him.

I think people get hung up on the whole term "building around".

The building around is the same as Lowry. The idea here is that fans, rightly, want to have an all timer like Kawhi/LeBron as it's incredibly difficult to win chips without the, like, 5 guys who matter in the league (*sigh* the Wemby draft).

But the Lowry/Barnes types are very easy to build around as their mix of intangibles/off ball skills at both ends combined with their on ball stuff (mainly playmaking) plugs up a lot of holes for teams who usually have to compensate for their stars various failings in the dirty work department. Masai just doesn't understand that you can't have 2 guys on the floor who do their main stuff hovering around the high post all game in Jak/Barnes the same way you can't have Lowry sitting in the corner all game watching another guy orchestrate the offense the entire time.

But without that all timer, you tend to need more than 2 guys. Masai's retooling will make it harder to get more than that.

[MEDIC]

I get it.......people.want SB to be a star "right now".

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

This is why I said by halfway the 3rd year, I was saying that excuses were getting Bargnani esque. Yes Barnes is obviously WAY better than him, but just some of excuses felt like they were avoiding the actual issue.

I felt that way after his FIRST year. The whole "the vets are mean to me" was a red flag.

After that I knew Scottie was going to be a longer term project & would probably never become what a lot of fans hoped he would become.

Scottie has maturity issues. That was clear from the beginning. Getting in fights with the vets on your team is not a good look. It shows lack of self awareness.

Lowry was the same way. He was a late bloomer because of his maturity issues. I think he would even admit that.

[brownbobcat]

Prime Iggy was a better player than Barnes is right now for sure, but Barnes is 4-5 years away from his prime.

I agree with your last comment. I believe Scottie in his prime will be better all aound player than OG & Iggy though. If he isn't, the Raps will still have a hell.of a player.

Building around Scottie is not the same as building around Lebron. Right now, Scotie needs scorers around him. Better scorers than him.

I think people get hung up on the whole term "building around".

Maybe it's semantics, but here's the key difference for me.

"Building around" = You can compete by adding another player of similar caliber.

You cannot do that with 2 Iggys or 2 OGs, you need to add a much better player in order to compete. There are lots of other comps you could add to the list. Kirilenko, Marion, Odom, Simmons.

With Scottie's current trajectory, you'd need to add a top-10 player or maybe even 2 All Stars. That's a very tall order. I think Masai knows that deep down, hence the "two and a half of them, or three of them, whatever it takes" comment - I do not think he's willing to do an all-out tank to get there.

[tsherkin]

I think most of us are reasonable and just want to see consistent improvement. I am not giving up on him, and having Scottie is still better than not having him IMO, but no objectively speaking Raps fan can say they love what they're seeing from him.

For me, he has entered "no more excuses" territory (of which I was totally guilty of making early on as well). First it was the vets are too selfish and won't share the ball, then it became the other players are not good enough, it's coaching, it's the constant state of flux of the lineup, etc, etc. And while all of those things did have some element of truth to them, the cream of the crop rise above all of that. All of us are hardcode basketball/sports fans and deep down we all know that.

This is why I said by halfway the 3rd year, I was saying that excuses were getting Bargnani esque. Yes Barnes is obviously WAY better than him, but just some of excuses felt like they were avoiding the actual issue.

I felt that way after his FIRST year. The whole "the vets are mean to me" was a red flag.

After that I knew Scottie was going to be a longer term project & would probably never become what a lot of fans hoped he would become.

Scottie has maturity issues. That was clear from the beginning. Getting in fights with the vets on your team is not a good look. It shows lack of self awareness.

Lowry was the same way. He was a late bloomer because of his maturity issues. I think he would even admit that.

With you, but Lowry at least had some foundation to build on. And as soon as Houston began starting him, he essentially broke out. They didn't give him the touches, but he'd figured out the 3, he maintained his elite foul drawing, he was a sound playmaker and game manager, etc. He had quickness and a thick build. This is the dude who could sometimes D up LEBRON for a possession or two here and there, and was crazy enough to take a charge from the man. Bit of a different starting point, in my head at least, compared to Scottie. The tools were there, he just needed to put together his head game much more so. With Barnes, it's both, and that's a much less tenable situation, and far less worthy of the wait.

[PushDaRock]

Potential to be doesn't necessarily mean they expected it to happen. There probably was a path for him to top 10 player in the league if that 13 game run last season was for real and could be built on but unfortunately it does not look like it was.

I understand that potential and realization are different. I really don't think such a path ever existed, though. Even WITH him shooting the 3 almost competently, he had only one full month of league-average or better efficiency. And that was him at 52.2/40.4/76.5, drawing at .226. That was never going to maintain, particularly given that he was shooting north of 40% from ATB in December (that specific month). I think we're all clear that this was a hot streak, and he was so super-reliant upon that level of shooting to bootstrap his efficiency that it was also clear that it was a big-time mirage. But that represented like 22% of his full season, so the final numbers make him look better than was actually reasonable to infer.

This is why we get excited about young players in the first place though, we get excited over great performances on small sample sizes and we hope it can be sustained.

I'm lower on Scottie than most and was already questioning why the scoring volume wasn't increasing after Siakam left, but I don't think we could have definitively said he would never be a top 10 player when he did take some actual steps in the right direction in year 3. Just because it wasn't an outcome that happens often for him doesn't mean it was impossible.

[tsherkin]

This is why we get excited about young players in the first place though, we get excited over great performances on small sample sizes and we hope it can be sustained.

Sure. But I was never excited about Scottie as a focal offensive player, nor were his pre-draft projections anywhere in that neighborhood. Nor did I, while it was happening, believe in his 3pt shooting maintaining.

I'm lower on Scottie than most and was already questioning why the scoring volume wasn't increasing after Siakam left, but I don't think we could have definitively said he would never be a top 10 player when he did take some actual steps in the right direction in year 3. Just because it wasn't an outcome that happens often for him doesn't mean it was impossible.

I agree with you here. I was just set into that mode already because I'd seen what I'd needed to see. I'm occasionally wrong, obviously, but the number of things stacked against him turning into elite offensive player were and remain extremely significant in volume. I actually can't think of anyone who has overcome the breadth of deficiencies he has in order to do so. Perhaps if I really tasked myself, I could find someone, but even guys like DDR and Lowry had more going for them on that front, even if it took a while to put it all together for them. But they had the tools to get where they got, and I don't see them in Scottie, nor do I see any kind of real development of consequence, so I have no real patience for him at this stage. Not along that particular front, anyhow. Obviously, he deserves kudos for what he does well, and it isn't a small set of things which he does well. He has utility. MEDIC and I have been bantering about Draymond, and if Scottie can get that good, or near to it, then that's a different discussion where he retains value to contract without being a useful scorer.

[ConSarnit]

We can go back and forth on this underrating of what Durant did with the Warriors, so I’ll stop. It’s not based on fact but media driven drivel.

But Booker hasn’t been a better player than Durant. Durant is older now so there is a concern, but main thing is that the Raptors are trying to build a team that is good across the board. This is year 1 of that. They have the pieces to acquire a superstar in the future imo, one that wouldn’t have to carry the team in his back. My point is someone like a Durant, not Durant specifically.

Ingram is a Brown level player at the least. Barnes last season actually had better than Brown’s peak season from an impact point. I don’t think we’re as far off. If we progress like we have this season with depth, we are getting to a point where we can trade multiple firsts for a superstar type.

Ignore the names and look at it more from an ideology perspective

In the near term? How? There are multiple teams laying in wait for a superstar. Those teams all have larger asset bases than us and some are in more desirable markets than ours. The price of stars has skyrocketed in the last 5 years and we don’t have the ammo to compete in a bidding war. How are we competing with the likes of OKC, HOU, SAS, BKN or UTA if a star trade materializes?

You have to also want to trade for said player. We could have traded for Durant or Dame for example. It depends on how good our team is so that we are willing to give up what is required to get that player. Houston and OKC so far have been very hesitant to make trades. Assets in trade mean nothing if you don’t plan to use it for a trade.

Who has been available? The Luka trade was done in secrecy and Butler (like most stars) will try and dictate where they want to go. Fox pretty much let it be known he’d only go to SAS. GSW wanted Durant and he wouldn’t go there. If it comes down to assets + desirability we’re not going to be at the top of any list.

[ConSarnit]

It's a big assumption to characterize Barnes as a better player than Iguodala.

Also, you can't build around Iguodala for exactly the same reason you can't build around OG even though they're both winning players.

Prime Iggy was a better player than Barnes is right now for sure, but Barnes is 4-5 years away from his prime.

I agree with your last comment. I believe Scottie in his prime will be better all aound player than OG & Iggy though. If he isn't, the Raps will still have a hell.of a player.

Building around Scottie is not the same as building around Lebron. Right now, Scotie needs scorers around him. Better scorers than him.

I think people get hung up on the whole term "building around".

The building around is the same as Lowry. The idea here is that fans, rightly, want to have an all timer like Kawhi/LeBron as it's incredibly difficult to win chips without the, like, 5 guys who matter in the league (*sigh* the Wemby draft).

But the Lowry/Barnes types are very easy to build around as their mix of intangibles/off ball skills at both ends combined with their on ball stuff (mainly playmaking) plugs up a lot of holes for teams who usually have to compensate for their stars various failings in the dirty work department. Masai just doesn't understand that you can't have 2 guys on the floor who do their main stuff hovering around the high post all game in Jak/Barnes the same way you can't have Lowry sitting in the corner all game watching another guy orchestrate the offense the entire time.

But without that all timer, you tend to need more than 2 guys. Masai's retooling will make it harder to get more than that.

What off ball skills does Barnes have? He can’t shoot and he doesn’t screen.

[Tripod]

People talk about TS% as if it's the be all and end all. The Thunder at 16th in the league in TS% behind teams like Detroit, Nets, Spurs, Bulls, 76ers and WIZARDS.

Being able to do other things well can compensate for TS...and as an individual, Barnes does those other things.