Foul baiting: Do you have a problem with this play?

[Lalouie]

i'm confused...this happens 30x a game. this is not foul baiting. foul baiting to me is an aggressive play to INITIATE contact. brown already put his hands on sga

admittedly there would be no call if sga didn't do what he did but that's a horse of another color
i think the refs have to call this otherwise they create just another grey area. sga went up and brown's hand impeded him

[badpotato]

Yep, yep - it's a faul. What SGA does after contact is just shameless whistle hunting though. Some posters already explained it - I'll just add that it's simply not a behaviour anyone that plays basketball can get behind. Most of us, grew up playing basketball casually with no refs - when faced with contact natural reaction is to adapt/play trough it/ punch the defender(lol).

This laughable "shooting attempt" is something that you can only see in the professional context - it is against the spirit of the game.

I know why he does it, I acknowledge the rules game is played by - that does not change my dislike for Shai and I hope he never wins anything while playing like that.

[Lakers In 5]

I can assure you, if Harden or Embiid did this the basketball world would unite and be up in arms. SGA is quickly entering that territory, and that ain’t a compliment.


Some weeks ago he even tried to foul bait on a game winner, absolutely shameless.

[nomansland]

Looks like a foul to me and I can't believe this particular play is a nexus of the foul-baiting conversation.

The problem is the lack of consistency though. At the most basic level, in the NBA that's a foul for some players and not a foul for others. Over and over.

[SweaterBae]

He's "shooting" because he got touched. He was not going to shoot otherwise. It could not be more simple. This was not a shot attempt that failed because he was fouled. It's super super easy to understand that it's total bull. People defending it don't understand basketball. He's not trying to shoot, he's trying to draw a foul. That's fake ass nonsense. If you have NO INTENTION of actually trying to shoot the ball otherwise, it should not be a foul. This is plain as day. The game has no integrity because of this garbage. Think back to when you were a kid playing in the driveway and could call your own fouls, would you pull this crap? Hell no.

[slick_watts]

this is a foul. this has always been a foul. almost any great offensive player will pull up to 'shoot' under your arms if you are hand checking them illegally (as jaylen brown was) to call attention to it and potentially get free throws.

if this is something that annoys you, then i feel sorry that you have to interact with the game at all since you must be furious at all times.

[MoneyTalks41890]

An obvious foul. There is no counter argument.

It shouldn’t be a shooting foul, and it wasn’t. It was called on the floor. As it should be 100/100 times.

[slick_watts]

I hear the complaints but I just can't believe the conspiracy that the NBA is rigging games for OKC's defense, which is what would be required to believe that officials, who regularly review games pretty vigorously, are knowingly continuing to favor OKC and let them do what they knowingly and intentionally forbid other teams from doing.

this is the crux of it, right?

my favorite part of this line of thinking is that it's usually the same people complaining that okc gets away with murder (implying a conspiracy) who also are all-in on the nba ratings and "adam silver would hate this finals matchup" nonsense.

shai engineers a few points a game at the line, big deal. why do people care so much about this. shai is so incredible in so many ways but this is what a whole lot of people want to focus on. if you want to talk about problems with the nba, it's that.

[brutalitops]

Yes however It's not just Shai, Harden/Brunson also do this often

What kills it is that OKC are so physical defensively (Thats cool, I actually dig it, I rather refs kinda swallow the whistle)

Then you go and he draws fouls like that, Where its players getting under the defenders arm and then using it to cause a foul

So it's just an inconsistent way OKC are getting whistles.\


However, That video is 100% a foul, It was dumb by Brown, He wants the contact, Shai is smart enough to move back, so Brown extends his arm rather then legally defending Shai,

[hyper316]

You reach, I teach

[Yoshun]

Yes, it's annoying to watch.

If I'm SGA and I'm getting that call, I'm doing all day though.

[og15]

He's "shooting" because he got touched. He was not going to shoot otherwise. It could not be more simple. This was not a shot attempt that failed because he was fouled. It's super super easy to understand that it's total bull. People defending it don't understand basketball. He's not trying to shoot, he's trying to draw a foul. That's fake ass nonsense. If you have NO INTENTION of actually trying to shoot the ball otherwise, it should not be a foul. This is plain as day. The game has no integrity because of this garbage. Think back to when you were a kid playing in the driveway and could call your own fouls, would you pull this crap? Hell no.

Yea, but that's why they don't call plays like that as shooting fouls, they call them as fouls on the ground.

All the shooting attempt did was get the refs to call the blocking foul. No player is going to get a shooting foul in that situation.

I cited the continuation criteria earlier with the NBA videos to show the examples, go check it out.

The different rules for continuation based on where they are shot from, etc is also what confuses people about the inconsistency in calls, though the refs are the vast majority of the time actually being consistent, it's just that continuation is by the rules different based on different scenarios.

https://official.nba.com/inside-the-rulebook-continuation/

[CobraCommander]

Obvious foul imo...it's hard to defend.

People that have never played ball thinks that’s a questionable call -

Jaylen has his elbow on his chest the whole way and it’s only a foul when SGA initiates his shot -

This is essentially the same thing harden does with his machine gun dribble step back- the only way to defend is to get up into his body but when Harden jumps you are in his landing area.. or when harden gets you on his hip drives then slows down.. you bump him and he shoots with the contact for the foul or when harden holds the ball down and in front of himself while driving to the basket with his arms fully extended then when you reach for the ball he changes the angle of his arms moving them into yours while looking like he is taking a shot… which is a foul. All while perfecting the foul baiting euro step…

SGA is a merchant- and that’s what he should cause it leads to wins - you don’t get style points for not getting to the line

Obvious foul - in nba and at the gym near your house- get out and play- you couldn’t get buckets if a guy did that to you -

Maybe not a foul in jail

[dhsilv2]

He's "shooting" because he got touched. He was not going to shoot otherwise. It could not be more simple. This was not a shot attempt that failed because he was fouled. It's super super easy to understand that it's total bull. People defending it don't understand basketball. He's not trying to shoot, he's trying to draw a foul. That's fake ass nonsense. If you have NO INTENTION of actually trying to shoot the ball otherwise, it should not be a foul. This is plain as day. The game has no integrity because of this garbage. Think back to when you were a kid playing in the driveway and could call your own fouls, would you pull this crap? Hell no.

Shai was getting hand checked consistently by Brown. Yes, if you were in your driveway and a bigger stronger guy was putting hands on you and fouling you. You'd either test him by offensive fouling the crap out of him or you'd call it. The "shot" here was just to force the refs to call the foul on the ground that had already clearly happened. As the OP said and others repeat, this wasn't called a shooting foul. It wasn't a shot...by the rules and by the refs.

[TheNG]

The best way to officiate such plays is to sometimes call it a foul and sometimes not.
Since it's a foul, it's OK to call that, but since this is anti basketball, the foul baiter should be punished as well - hence better to sometimes not call it.

[dhsilv2]

Obvious foul imo...it's hard to defend.

People that have never played ball thinks that’s a questionable call -

Jaylen has his elbow on his chest the whole way and it’s only a foul when SGA initiates his shot -

This is essentially the same thing harden does with his machine gun dribble step back- the only way to defend is to get up into his body but when Harden jumps you are in his landing area.. or when harden gets you on his hip drives then slows down.. you bump him and he shoots with the contact for the foul or when harden holds the ball down and in front of himself while driving to the basket with his arms fully extended then when you reach for the ball he changes the angle of his arms moving them into yours while looking like he is taking a shot… which is a foul. All while perfecting the foul baiting euro step…

SGA is a merchant- and that’s what he should cause it leads to wins - you don’t get style points for not getting to the line

Obvious foul - in nba and at the gym near your house- get out and play- you couldn’t get buckets if a guy did that to you -

Maybe not a foul in jail

They didn't call a shooting foul. The foul was having his elbow in shai the whole way down. he finally just forced the refs to call the foul on the ground that was happening the whole play.

[CobraCommander]

Obvious foul imo...it's hard to defend.

People that have never played ball thinks that’s a questionable call -

Jaylen has his elbow on his chest the whole way and it’s only a foul when SGA initiates his shot -

This is essentially the same thing harden does with his machine gun dribble step back- the only way to defend is to get up into his body but when Harden jumps you are in his landing area.. or when harden gets you on his hip drives then slows down.. you bump him and he shoots with the contact for the foul or when harden holds the ball down and in front of himself while driving to the basket with his arms fully extended then when you reach for the ball he changes the angle of his arms moving them into yours while looking like he is taking a shot… which is a foul. All while perfecting the foul baiting euro step…

SGA is a merchant- and that’s what he should cause it leads to wins - you don’t get style points for not getting to the line

Obvious foul - in nba and at the gym near your house- get out and play- you couldn’t get buckets if a guy did that to you -

Maybe not a foul in jail

They didn't call a shooting foul. The foul was having his elbow in shai the whole way down. he finally just forced the refs to call the foul on the ground that was happening the whole play.

Oh I got your point - that’s why I’m shocked it’s a problem for people when if sga didn’t force the ref he would have had a empty possession or had to pass the ball.

This IS the best outcome when SGA shooting 80% from line

Oh and happy pi day

[dhsilv2]

People that have never played ball thinks that’s a questionable call -

Jaylen has his elbow on his chest the whole way and it’s only a foul when SGA initiates his shot -

This is essentially the same thing harden does with his machine gun dribble step back- the only way to defend is to get up into his body but when Harden jumps you are in his landing area.. or when harden gets you on his hip drives then slows down.. you bump him and he shoots with the contact for the foul or when harden holds the ball down and in front of himself while driving to the basket with his arms fully extended then when you reach for the ball he changes the angle of his arms moving them into yours while looking like he is taking a shot… which is a foul. All while perfecting the foul baiting euro step…

SGA is a merchant- and that’s what he should cause it leads to wins - you don’t get style points for not getting to the line

Obvious foul - in nba and at the gym near your house- get out and play- you couldn’t get buckets if a guy did that to you -

Maybe not a foul in jail

They didn't call a shooting foul. The foul was having his elbow in shai the whole way down. he finally just forced the refs to call the foul on the ground that was happening the whole play.

Oh I got your point - that’s why I’m shocked it’s a problem for people when if sga didn’t force the ref he would have had a empty possession or had to pass the ball.

This IS the best outcome when SGA shooting 80% from line

Oh and happy pi day

It was only free throws because boston was in the penalty. Otherwise it would have just been ball out. And I should add, it wasn't just the elbow but brown more or less had his hand on him as well. Often you see the offensive player essentially use that left to push the defender back. Also a foul but if refs aren't calling the hand check, they aren't calling that. But shai can't really do that against Brown. Browns just too much bigger. Thus we get this.

[CobraCommander]

They didn't call a shooting foul. The foul was having his elbow in shai the whole way down. he finally just forced the refs to call the foul on the ground that was happening the whole play.

Oh I got your point - that’s why I’m shocked it’s a problem for people when if sga didn’t force the ref he would have had a empty possession or had to pass the ball.

This IS the best outcome when SGA shooting 80% from line

Oh and happy pi day

It was only free throws because boston was in the penalty. Otherwise it would have just been ball out. And I should add, it wasn't just the elbow but brown more or less had his hand on him as well. Often you see the offensive player essentially use that left to push the defender back. Also a foul but if refs aren't calling the hand check, they aren't calling that. But shai can't really do that against Brown. Browns just too much bigger. Thus we get this.

So thanks for further detail- which even more reinforces my initial opinion that this is definitely a foul- sga did the needful…

[jbk1234]

No one forces these defender to arm bar. Defend with your feet. The legitimate complaint about Shai (and Tatum) is that when the defended does defend with their feet, they push off with enough force to disadvantage the defender and it's almost never called.