2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the MVP?)

[Big J]

Running to the MVP thread after a loss boasting about a generally meaningless statistic is the personification of “loud and obnoxious”.

That's the other thing. You are very defensive as well. Jokic would just let a comment like that slide off his back.

And you get defensive whenever someone praises Jokic. This is called being your own worst enemy.

Nah, I don't mind people praising him for things that he's good at.

[DrModesty]

This is explaining the obvious, but if Jokic himself was a better defender (able to move on to the perimeter and able to protect the rim) then Denver's record would be closer to the Thunders than it is. If he could do even one of those two things, it would make building around Jokic far easier. It is simple to build an offense for him, given his spectacular playmaking and scoring. But building a defense around him is tough.

Shai, frankly, is easier to build around. He has no clear weakness for the parts of the game he is involved in. The things that he can't do (defend bigs in the paint, get double digit rebounds) inherently aren't his responsibility. It isn't the same for Jokic's weaknesses. OKC has chosen to crutch on Shai's immense offensive talent and surround him with defensive players and make a chain with no weak links. Because Shai is automatic buckets OKC only need J-Dub, Chet, and the role players to offer just enough on offense to keep it from being a problem (akin to Denver's defense).

There is a lot of value at just not having exploitable weaknesses. Just look at the success of Jayson Tatum. Easy to build around, and easy to win with. Shai is the same and we are seeing it in the win column, and that is I think the primary reason Shai will win MVP (despite Jokic's freak numbers).

Jokic is a superb, pantheon of the game level talent. Pointing out these weaknesses does not diminish what is self evident. But it does represent a real problem for the Nuggets. It emphasizes their reliance on Aaron Gordon. It shines a light on the poor team building that they don't have a rim protector on the bench. That they have given up assets for minimal benefit.

[Special_Puppy]

But building a defense around him is tough.

I don’t get this argument. Denver had the 6th best defense in the league this year with a not particularly talented defensive supporting cast around Jokic

[JiriWelsch]

SGA is such a tremendous player, and OKC is a great, very capable team.

Jokic is having the greatest individual season in recent memory. DEN is a very good team.

Both of these things are true. Closest MVP race I can remember. SGA likely wins on voter fatigue and team success factors. I do think Jokic is the MVP personally but neither pick should be offensive to anyone.

[Infinite Llamas]

This is explaining the obvious, but if Jokic himself was a better defender (able to move on to the perimeter and able to protect the rim) then Denver's record would be closer to the Thunders than it is. If he could do even one of those two things, it would make building around Jokic far easier. It is simple to build an offense for him, given his spectacular playmaking and scoring. But building a defense around him is tough.

Shai, frankly, is easier to build around. He has no clear weakness for the parts of the game he is involved in. The things that he can't do (defend bigs in the paint, get double digit rebounds) inherently aren't his responsibility. It isn't the same for Jokic's weaknesses. OKC has chosen to crutch on Shai's immense offensive talent and surround him with defensive players and make a chain with no weak links. Because Shai is automatic buckets OKC only need J-Dub, Chet, and the role players to offer just enough on offense to keep it from being a problem (akin to Denver's defense).

There is a lot of value at just not having exploitable weaknesses. Just look at the success of Jayson Tatum. Easy to build around, and easy to win with. Shai is the same and we are seeing it in the win column, and that is I think the primary reason Shai will win MVP (despite Jokic's freak numbers).

Jokic is a superb, pantheon of the game level talent. Pointing out these weaknesses does not diminish what is self evident. But it does represent a real problem for the Nuggets. It emphasizes their reliance on Aaron Gordon. It shines a light on the poor team building that they don't have a rim protector on the bench. That they have given up assets for minimal benefit.

Guys like Chet or Myles Turner or Mobley would be spectacular fits next to Jokic. I understand these guys don’t grow on trees but really, any mobile power forward with good size would help Jokic a lot. Gordon is strong but will never be a rim protector and it’s an area Jokic needs help on.

I will not say that Jokic is any great defender as he has flaws there but this post is giving too much of a pass to guys like MPJ and Jamal. If they aren’t having good shooting games, their already nonexistent defense creates too many weak links. I think they could survive with Jokic’s poor rim protection if they had guards that could provide resistance and not be behind the play at a bare minimum.

So yea, I’ll say that Jokic’s defense can be a problem, but it absolutely, positively is not why Denver is losing games against good teams. Is his defense part of the problem? Of course. But it is far from the lions share.

[DrModesty]

But building a defense around him is tough.

I don’t get this argument. Denver had the 6th best defense in the league this year with a not particularly talented defensive supporting cast around Jokic

Denver is 22nd in defense this year. Where are you seeing 6th?

[Special_Puppy]

But building a defense around him is tough.

I don’t get this argument. Denver had the 6th best defense in the league this year with a not particularly talented defensive supporting cast around Jokic

Denver is 22nd in defense this year. Where are you seeing 6th?

Meant to say 6th in defense *last* year without a particularly talented defensive supporting cast

[DrModesty]

This is explaining the obvious, but if Jokic himself was a better defender (able to move on to the perimeter and able to protect the rim) then Denver's record would be closer to the Thunders than it is. If he could do even one of those two things, it would make building around Jokic far easier. It is simple to build an offense for him, given his spectacular playmaking and scoring. But building a defense around him is tough.

Shai, frankly, is easier to build around. He has no clear weakness for the parts of the game he is involved in. The things that he can't do (defend bigs in the paint, get double digit rebounds) inherently aren't his responsibility. It isn't the same for Jokic's weaknesses. OKC has chosen to crutch on Shai's immense offensive talent and surround him with defensive players and make a chain with no weak links. Because Shai is automatic buckets OKC only need J-Dub, Chet, and the role players to offer just enough on offense to keep it from being a problem (akin to Denver's defense).

There is a lot of value at just not having exploitable weaknesses. Just look at the success of Jayson Tatum. Easy to build around, and easy to win with. Shai is the same and we are seeing it in the win column, and that is I think the primary reason Shai will win MVP (despite Jokic's freak numbers).

Jokic is a superb, pantheon of the game level talent. Pointing out these weaknesses does not diminish what is self evident. But it does represent a real problem for the Nuggets. It emphasizes their reliance on Aaron Gordon. It shines a light on the poor team building that they don't have a rim protector on the bench. That they have given up assets for minimal benefit.

Guys like Chet or Myles Turner or Mobley would be spectacular fits next to Jokic. I understand these guys don’t grow on trees but really, any mobile power forward with good size would help Jokic a lot. Gordon is strong but will never be a rim protector and it’s an area Jokic needs help on.

I will not say that Jokic is any great defender as he has flaws there but this post is giving too much of a pass to guys like MPJ and Jamal. If they aren’t having good shooting games, their already nonexistent defense creates too many weak links. I think they could survive with Jokic’s poor rim protection if they had guards that could provide resistance and not be behind the play at a bare minimum.

So yea, I’ll say that Jokic’s defense can be a problem, but it absolutely, positively is not why Denver is losing games against good teams. Is his defense part of the problem? Of course. But it is far from the lions share.

As far as Jamal and MPJ are concerned. They certainly don't help defensively, but they are also critical parts of why Denver has an elite offense. If you put Dort and Herb Jones in front of him instead, then their defense is going to be good. But they still might not be an elite defense because they still would have limitations in the middle. Centers are forced to defend high volume. It is why DPOY is a near exclusive front court award. You can hide a Curry, but hiding a Jokic is much harder. You make those player swaps and you would likely be saying good bye to them as an elite offense as well. I am sure they would be good. They have Jokic. But are they still top 5? We also saw what Gobert was doing with clearly worse defensive personnel every year on the Jazz.

In the end all I said is if he could do those things at a higher level then they would win more games, and that his weaknesses are closer to his core responsibilities than Shai (who is good to elite at everything he is involved with).

[DrModesty]

I don’t get this argument. Denver had the 6th best defense in the league this year with a not particularly talented defensive supporting cast around Jokic

Denver is 22nd in defense this year. Where are you seeing 6th?

Meant to say 6th in defense *last* year without a particularly talented defensive supporting cast

Ah I see. I'm seeing 8th, but you might have access to more accurate stats than me. 6th or 8th, those defenses are good but not elite.

I'd also say that last years defensive supporting cast is definitely a step up from this years. Many more AG games, and then KCP who was the teams best defender.

Take away these stronger components of the defense and you run in to the specific problem that I am highlighting. That Jokic has defensive weaknesses that can be attacked.

I give Jokic credit on his defensive strengths. He reads offenses very well. Positions well. Uses his hands excellently. He anticipates the other players actions extremely well.

But he can't be put on the perimeter because it is a surefire blow-by. His lack of speed sometimes has him not contesting shots because he knows he will risk fouling. He can't protect the rim with blocks, but he also isn't very good at making players take uncomfortable shots either.

In the past few years he has managed to leverage his strengths in to being a mildly positive defender. This year he hasn't played with the same energy on defense, and as said before, he has been put in to bad positions more often which he can't deal with very well.

[Snake3]

Saw this on reddit. This is why Jokic is probably the most valuable player in the league, but SGA will win mvp but I think Jokic is more valuable. But this is also the reason why the Nuggets will likely to get bounced in the playoffs. They are way too reliant on him and defensive capability ain't good.

But still. Just damn. Wow.

[Big J]

Saw this on reddit. This is why Jokic is probably the most valuable player in the league, but SGA will win mvp but I think Jokic is more valuable. But this is also the reason why the Nuggets will likely to get bounced in the playoffs. They are way too reliant on him and defensive capability ain't good.

But still. Just damn. Wow.

This says more about how their team is constructed than his value. They are built around him being heliocentric.

[kazyv]

Saw this on reddit. This is why Jokic is probably the most valuable player in the league, but SGA will win mvp but I think Jokic is more valuable. But this is also the reason why the Nuggets will likely to get bounced in the playoffs. They are way too reliant on him and defensive capability ain't good.

But still. Just damn. Wow.

This says more about how their team is constructed than his value. They are built around him being heliocentric.

nah, this says more about how silly you can get with stats. this graphic is worthless. at least put SGA in there or something.

[SpreeS]

Saw this on reddit. This is why Jokic is probably the most valuable player in the league, but SGA will win mvp but I think Jokic is more valuable. But this is also the reason why the Nuggets will likely to get bounced in the playoffs. They are way too reliant on him and defensive capability ain't good.

But still. Just damn. Wow.

This says more about how their team is constructed than his value. They are built around him being heliocentric.

Denver has the best starting center in Jokic and the worst NBA centers DeAndre/Saric/Hall on the bench. Also Gordon and Watson as small ball centers doesn't work too. DEN needs at least avg bench center and these numbers would look quite different.

[Special_Puppy]

Saw this on reddit. This is why Jokic is probably the most valuable player in the league, but SGA will win mvp but I think Jokic is more valuable. But this is also the reason why the Nuggets will likely to get bounced in the playoffs. They are way too reliant on him and defensive capability ain't good.

But still. Just damn. Wow.

This says more about how their team is constructed than his value. They are built around him being heliocentric.

Denver has the best starting center in Jokic and the worst NBA centers DeAndre/Saric/Hall on the bench. Also Gordon and Watson as small ball centers doesn't work too. DEN needs at least avg bench center and these numbers would look quite different.

I mean Jokic is 2nd in career RAPM. Dude is still an impact titan if you control for backups https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[Special_Puppy]

Denver is 22nd in defense this year. Where are you seeing 6th?

Meant to say 6th in defense *last* year without a particularly talented defensive supporting cast

Ah I see. I'm seeing 8th, but you might have access to more accurate stats than me. 6th or 8th, those defenses are good but not elite.

I'd also say that last years defensive supporting cast is definitely a step up from this years. Many more AG games, and then KCP who was the teams best defender.

Take away these stronger components of the defense and you run in to the specific problem that I am highlighting. That Jokic has defensive weaknesses that can be attacked.

We are talking about the ease or difficulty of team building around Jokic. If all you need to build a top 10 defense around Jokic is someone like KCP and Gordon (both good but not particularly notable defenders) then that doesn’t seem like a particularly onerous team building requirement. Again it’s not like Jokic had a particularly talented defensive supporting cast in 2024

[Packbuckman]

SGA for me team record and he has played great against the best teams.

[WarriorGM]

If the Warriors overtake the Nuggets in the standings by the end of the season, I'm saying Steph.

[Big J]

I think at the end of the day if they end up in a dead heat SGA has 2 tiebreakers: team record, and the fact that he hasn’t won it already. It would be a slap in the face if he didn’t win with the season he’s had. Jokic has already had his day in the sun a few times.

[Snake3]

Saw this on reddit. This is why Jokic is probably the most valuable player in the league, but SGA will win mvp but I think Jokic is more valuable. But this is also the reason why the Nuggets will likely to get bounced in the playoffs. They are way too reliant on him and defensive capability ain't good.

But still. Just damn. Wow.

This says more about how their team is constructed than his value. They are built around him being heliocentric.

nah, this says more about how silly you can get with stats. this graphic is worthless. at least put SGA in there or something.

SGA ain't generating the rebounds or assists like that. You can see his Ortg on/off numbers tho. It's +13.

Jokic is +21. It's pretty crazy. It's pretty consistent across the board offensively.

SGA brings it more defensively. That's where he catches up with Jokic in terms of impact. Although there is still a difference with on/off the court metrics in favor of Jokic. SGA brings it when it comes to other advance numbers as they are either tied or SGA is leading or Jokic. Neither have crazy lead on another.

But in terms of offense, Jokic is stunning. This also shows how bad the teammates are at generating the offense. It could be the coach or the teammates in general. I don't know.

[Big J]

This says more about how their team is constructed than his value. They are built around him being heliocentric.

nah, this says more about how silly you can get with stats. this graphic is worthless. at least put SGA in there or something.

SGA ain't generating the rebounds or assists like that. You can see his Ortg on/off numbers tho. It's +13.

Jokic is +21. It's pretty crazy. It's pretty consistent across the board offensively.

SGA brings it more defensively. That's where he catches up with Jokic in terms of impact. Although there is still a difference with on/off the court metrics in favor of Jokic. SGA brings it when it comes to other advance numbers as they are either tied or SGA is leading or Jokic. Neither have crazy lead on another.

But in terms of offense, Jokic is stunning. This also shows how bad the teammates are at generating the offense. It could be the coach or the teammates in general. I don't know.

It’s because the team is so used to playing a certain way, that it throws them off when they have to change it up. Over reliance on one player is not a good strategy in the long run. We’ve seen the same thing over the years with Nash, Lebron, Harden, ect. Other players need to be empowered by the star more.