Foul baiting: Do you have a problem with this play?

[CometGM]

Blame Harden. He ruined the NBA.

This 100%. Start now to retrain the next generation of players. Start calling all the travels, carries, and offensive fouls.

This play is definitely a foul on Brown though.

[Exp0sed]

He's "shooting" because he got touched. He was not going to shoot otherwise. It could not be more simple. This was not a shot attempt that failed because he was fouled. It's super super easy to understand that it's total bull. People defending it don't understand basketball. He's not trying to shoot, he's trying to draw a foul. That's fake ass nonsense. If you have NO INTENTION of actually trying to shoot the ball otherwise, it should not be a foul. This is plain as day. The game has no integrity because of this garbage. Think back to when you were a kid playing in the driveway and could call your own fouls, would you pull this crap? Hell no.

Yea, but that's why they don't call plays like that as shooting fouls, they call them as fouls on the ground.

All the shooting attempt did was get the refs to call the blocking foul. No player is going to get a shooting foul in that situation.

I cited the continuation criteria earlier with the NBA videos to show the examples, go check it out.

The different rules for continuation based on where they are shot from, etc is also what confuses people about the inconsistency in calls, though the refs are the vast majority of the time actually being consistent, it's just that continuation is by the rules different based on different scenarios.

https://official.nba.com/inside-the-rulebook-continuation/

Yes, the league changed the rule so these won't be called shooting fouls and usually that's the case but still, maybe 5 or 10 percent of the time - they do in fact, get called incorrectly as shooting fouls. Shai in particular has got plenty of these incorrect calls throughout the season

Sent from my SM-A055F using RealGM mobile app

[hauntedcomputer]

I'm an agnostic NBA viewer in that I don't root for teams but only watch for entertainment, and I don't ever notice obvious foul discrepancies. I barely pay attention to the refs and whatever imperfections they have is just part of the game, a human game, to me. I hate reviews because there is no unbiased perception and it just wastes my time.

All I see are homers whining on RGM that they didn't get calls their way.

[Mavrelous]

It's cute how everyone is pretending hand checks are always called and that forcing a shot to get the call should get rewarded.
Either hand checking is a foul, or it isn't SGA forcing up a shot shouldn't matter.

Here is JDub hand checking with his left arm, then bumping, Luka forces the shot and gets no call.
3rd shot attempt in the list
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042300225&PlayerID=1629029&RangeType=0&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612742&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

you can look at the layups by Luka and see how in many of them he is hand checked by Dort, If hand checking is a foul that is actually called, Dort doesn't last a single quarter, you know how everyone complains Luka looks at the refs after each drive? Well, he does because he's hand checked and bumped on every drive, doesn't mean he should get the call.

BTW JDub was got murdered on drives this series, and pushed, not just hand checked, by PJ and Lively and didn't get calls, SGA flops, exaggerates contact and gets the calls.

[dhsilv2]

I'm an agnostic NBA viewer in that I don't root for teams but only watch for entertainment, and I don't ever notice obvious foul discrepancies. I barely pay attention to the refs and whatever imperfections they have is just part of the game, a human game, to me. I hate reviews because there is no unbiased perception and it just wastes my time.

All I see are homers whining on RGM that they didn't get calls their way.

Mostly agree. There are games here and there I notice them...and there are a few refs who seem to have obvious bias. But 90% of the time, the game's just fine as it's called. Fans get so obsessed.

[og15]

He's "shooting" because he got touched. He was not going to shoot otherwise. It could not be more simple. This was not a shot attempt that failed because he was fouled. It's super super easy to understand that it's total bull. People defending it don't understand basketball. He's not trying to shoot, he's trying to draw a foul. That's fake ass nonsense. If you have NO INTENTION of actually trying to shoot the ball otherwise, it should not be a foul. This is plain as day. The game has no integrity because of this garbage. Think back to when you were a kid playing in the driveway and could call your own fouls, would you pull this crap? Hell no.

Yea, but that's why they don't call plays like that as shooting fouls, they call them as fouls on the ground.

All the shooting attempt did was get the refs to call the blocking foul. No player is going to get a shooting foul in that situation.

I cited the continuation criteria earlier with the NBA videos to show the examples, go check it out.

The different rules for continuation based on where they are shot from, etc is also what confuses people about the inconsistency in calls, though the refs are the vast majority of the time actually being consistent, it's just that continuation is by the rules different based on different scenarios.

https://official.nba.com/inside-the-rulebook-continuation/

Yes, the league changed the rule so these won't be called shooting fouls and usually that's the case but still, maybe 5 or 10 percent of the time - they do in fact, get called incorrectly as shooting fouls. Shai in particular has got plenty of these incorrect calls throughout the season

Sent from my SM-A055F using RealGM mobile app

I wouldn't doubt that some go through, I obviously can't cite a percentage, but it could also depend on the whole "is it a gather inside the lower defensive box" vs a gather outside the lower defensive box. The same play inside vs outside the lower defensive box, one is a shooting foul and one is a foul on the ground, so that's a factor too in terns of the inconsistency we might see.

[dhsilv2]

It's cute how everyone is pretending hand checks are always called and that forcing a shot to get the call should get rewarded.
Either hand checking is a foul, or it isn't SGA forcing up a shot shouldn't matter.

Here is JDub hand checking with his left arm, then bumping, Luka forces the shot and gets no call.
3rd shot attempt in the list
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042300225&PlayerID=1629029&RangeType=0&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612742&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

you can look at the layups by Luka and see how in many of them he is hand checked by Dort, If hand checking is a foul that is actually called, Dort doesn't last a single quarter, you know how everyone complains Luka looks at the refs after each drive? Well, he does because he's hand checked and bumped on every drive, doesn't mean he should get the call.

BTW JDub was got murdered on drives this series, and pushed, not just hand checked, by PJ and Lively and didn't get calls, SGA flops, exaggerates contact and gets the calls.

Nobody said the refs are consistent.

[ITYSL]

I don't really get why that call is the one that's getting so much discussion. That is clearly a foul.

This one is much more egregious. It should have been a no-call, and SGA should have gotten fined for flopping. He's a foul merchant and that part of his game spoils a lot of the rest for me: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=302&GameID=0022400946&Season=2024-25&flag=1&title=Brown%20L.B.FOUL%20(P2.PN)%20(T.Ford)

As others have said, OKC is allowed to be a lot more physical than other teams. When the fans of nearly every single opposing team say this over and over again, bias can be ruled out to some extent, as you never really hear that about any other team. They handcheck and cut off drives on plays that would normally get called on any other team.

For as physical as they are, they've only had 3 players foul out all year, which is 2nd fewest in the league. Dort has fouled out once all season. If the game was consistently officiated in the way the foul in the OP was, then Dort would foul out every other game.

With all of that said, the Celtics didn't lose the game the other night because of officiating. They lost because they couldn't make shots in the 4th quarter. Period.

[bisme37]

Called it in the game thread. SGA is calling attention to the fact that he's being handchecked. Ref shouldn't have to require a rip through to call this. Half of what we get angry about in terms of foulbaiting is a result of the refs not calling the game right.

Basically. I don't understand the drama happening in this thread, but I feel in an increasing minority on the Shai foul drawing narrative.

A lot of not getting called for fouls is defensive discipline. Hand in the cookie jar when a guy goes into a shooting motion is what refs are trained to look for. They can't measure force of contact, they just see a hand interfering with a shooting motion and it's a not brainer

At any level of basketball, when you go up against a guy good at drawing fouls, you use your hands less. Use your feet, keep the arms up.

There are plenty of Shai grifts to complain about, but this one is just easy money and I don't see a ref not making that call.

No one here really picked that play as something they were mad about. The OP seems to have noticed foul-baiting Thunder convos happening on twitter etc, and chose this play to make the point that it was a legit foul.

Seems like most of us agree it's a foul. There are just folks saying they don't like that it's a foul. And talking about better examples of actual foul baiting from the game.

[Mavrelous]

It's cute how everyone is pretending hand checks are always called and that forcing a shot to get the call should get rewarded.
Either hand checking is a foul, or it isn't SGA forcing up a shot shouldn't matter.

Here is JDub hand checking with his left arm, then bumping, Luka forces the shot and gets no call.
3rd shot attempt in the list
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042300225&PlayerID=1629029&RangeType=0&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612742&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

you can look at the layups by Luka and see how in many of them he is hand checked by Dort, If hand checking is a foul that is actually called, Dort doesn't last a single quarter, you know how everyone complains Luka looks at the refs after each drive? Well, he does because he's hand checked and bumped on every drive, doesn't mean he should get the call.

BTW JDub was got murdered on drives this series, and pushed, not just hand checked, by PJ and Lively and didn't get calls, SGA flops, exaggerates contact and gets the calls.

Nobody said the refs are consistent.

Huh??? The entire premise that this is consistently called a foul and there is no different standard applied to SGA.

[dhsilv2]

It's cute how everyone is pretending hand checks are always called and that forcing a shot to get the call should get rewarded.
Either hand checking is a foul, or it isn't SGA forcing up a shot shouldn't matter.

Here is JDub hand checking with his left arm, then bumping, Luka forces the shot and gets no call.
3rd shot attempt in the list
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042300225&PlayerID=1629029&RangeType=0&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612742&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

you can look at the layups by Luka and see how in many of them he is hand checked by Dort, If hand checking is a foul that is actually called, Dort doesn't last a single quarter, you know how everyone complains Luka looks at the refs after each drive? Well, he does because he's hand checked and bumped on every drive, doesn't mean he should get the call.

BTW JDub was got murdered on drives this series, and pushed, not just hand checked, by PJ and Lively and didn't get calls, SGA flops, exaggerates contact and gets the calls.

Nobody said the refs are consistent.

Huh??? The entire premise that this is consistently called a foul and there is no different standard applied to SGA.

The point made by nearly everyone is that it's an obvious foul. We're all aware that some players get called differently. That especially applies to guys who are really freaking strong. Jokic, Lebron...and yeah...Luka are exceptions. And it's because they more or less move people around to the point that refs just don't call the games consistently or the same. But that's nothing new and it was the case even with Shaq going back over 30 years ago. That's just a hard thing to do as a ref is understand how much physical pressure is being put on guys who are just stronger than everyone else.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

This particular example was a foul. But SGA is the arguably the worst foul baiter in the NBA and there are hundreds of other examples of him initiating the contact and getting rewarded for it.

[RunOKC]

Called it in the game thread. SGA is calling attention to the fact that he's being handchecked. Ref shouldn't have to require a rip through to call this. Half of what we get angry about in terms of foulbaiting is a result of the refs not calling the game right.

Basically. I don't understand the drama happening in this thread, but I feel in an increasing minority on the Shai foul drawing narrative.

A lot of not getting called for fouls is defensive discipline. Hand in the cookie jar when a guy goes into a shooting motion is what refs are trained to look for. They can't measure force of contact, they just see a hand interfering with a shooting motion and it's a not brainer

At any level of basketball, when you go up against a guy good at drawing fouls, you use your hands less. Use your feet, keep the arms up.

There are plenty of Shai grifts to complain about, but this one is just easy money and I don't see a ref not making that call.

No one here really picked that play as something there were mad about. The OP seems to have noticed foul-baiting Thunder convos happening on twitter etc, and chose this play to make the point that it was a legit foul.

Seems like most of us agree it's a foul. There are just folks saying they don't like that it's a foul. And talking about better examples of actual foul baiting from the game.

I posted this example because their was a thread with thousands of comments saying the opposite of what most people concluded here. Clearly the people posting on that platform do not possesses the bball iq of Realgmers

[Mavrelous]

Nobody said the refs are consistent.

Huh??? The entire premise that this is consistently called a foul and there is no different standard applied to SGA.

The point made by nearly everyone is that it's an obvious foul. We're all aware that some players get called differently. That especially applies to guys who are really freaking strong. Jokic, Lebron...and yeah...Luka are exceptions. And it's because they more or less move people around to the point that refs just don't call the games consistently or the same. But that's nothing new and it was the case even with Shaq going back over 30 years ago. That's just a hard thing to do as a ref is understand how much physical pressure is being put on guys who are just stronger than everyone else.

I don't buy this explanation because:
1. Joel Embiid, a worse viewing experience fouls wise than SGA.
2. Kyrie who is smaller and lighter than SGA gets hand checked on drives with no whistle.

[dhsilv2]

Huh??? The entire premise that this is consistently called a foul and there is no different standard applied to SGA.

The point made by nearly everyone is that it's an obvious foul. We're all aware that some players get called differently. That especially applies to guys who are really freaking strong. Jokic, Lebron...and yeah...Luka are exceptions. And it's because they more or less move people around to the point that refs just don't call the games consistently or the same. But that's nothing new and it was the case even with Shaq going back over 30 years ago. That's just a hard thing to do as a ref is understand how much physical pressure is being put on guys who are just stronger than everyone else.

I don't buy this explanation because:
1. Joel Embiid, a worse viewing experience fouls wise than SGA.
2. Kyrie who is smaller and lighter than SGA gets hand checked on drives with no whistle.

Nobody said there isn't some level of 'selling' with some players. But Embiid isn't all that strong a player. And Irving actively avoids contact.

[slick_watts]

This one is much more egregious. It should have been a no-call, and SGA should have gotten fined for flopping. He's a foul merchant and that part of his game spoils a lot of the rest for me: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=302&GameID=0022400946&Season=2024-25&flag=1&title=Brown%20L.B.FOUL%20(P2.PN)%20(T.Ford)

this random loose ball foul spoils the game for you?

As others have said, OKC is allowed to be a lot more physical than other teams. When the fans of nearly every single opposing team say this over and over again, bias can be ruled out to some extent, as you never really hear that about any other team. They handcheck and cut off drives on plays that would normally get called on any other team.

they aren't "allowed to be more physical", they just are. fans say it over and over again because they are physical. should they get called for more fouls? who knows. that's a subjective, hand-wavey thing. they are already called for more than almost every other team.

For as physical as they are, they've only had 3 players foul out all year, which is 2nd fewest in the league. Dort has fouled out once all season. If the game was consistently officiated in the way the foul in the OP was, then Dort would foul out every other game.

they foul the 5th most in the league per possession and everyone knows they are 2nd worst in opponent free throw rates. i have no clue why you are gauging their physicality by how over they have a player foul out. dort hasn't changed how he plays defense and his foul rate has been the same for three years.

[ITYSL]

This one is much more egregious. It should have been a no-call, and SGA should have gotten fined for flopping. He's a foul merchant and that part of his game spoils a lot of the rest for me: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=302&GameID=0022400946&Season=2024-25&flag=1&title=Brown%20L.B.FOUL%20(P2.PN)%20(T.Ford)

this random loose ball foul spoils the game for you?

I didn't say one foul spoils the game for me. Strawman.

As others have said, OKC is allowed to be a lot more physical than other teams. When the fans of nearly every single opposing team say this over and over again, bias can be ruled out to some extent, as you never really hear that about any other team. They handcheck and cut off drives on plays that would normally get called on any other team.

they aren't "allowed to be more physical", they just are. fans say it over and over again because they are physical. should they get called for more fouls? who knows. that's a subjective, hand-wavey thing. they are already called for more than almost every other team.

Or maybe fans say it over and over again because it's true.

For as physical as they are, they've only had 3 players foul out all year, which is 2nd fewest in the league. Dort has fouled out once all season. If the game was consistently officiated in the way the foul in the OP was, then Dort would foul out every other game.

they foul the 5th most in the league per possession and everyone knows they are 2nd worst in opponent free throw rates. i have no clue why you are gauging their physicality by how over they have a player foul out. dort hasn't changed how he plays defense and his foul rate has been the same for three years.

With how much handchecking Dort does and how physical he is on defense, I'd expect him to be fouling out a lot more, if the standard for a foul is the example used in the OP. That is what I said.

[Celts17Pride]

The NBA needs to eliminate foul baiting and flopping from the game. If I was Commissioner of the NBA, I would instruct the refs to not call any foul that had any foul baiting or flopping involved even if it was a foul. NBA needs to remove this from the game even if it needs to take extreme measures.

[guynumber45]

My biggest complaint are the body-to-body contact fouls. Guys like Shai, who have a more slender build, will often exaggerate the contact they face on collisions and get the benefit of the doubt. Meanwhile, a stronger player will not receive the same call because they can play through the contact. It's a frustrating double-standard of the game that I wish would be eliminated.

[ChiTownHero1992]

Is it a foul? Maybe by the full letter of the law yea...but its like how J-walking is a law....everyone does it, shouldn't be penalized. It has made the game SUPPPPPPPPER SOFT!