The official fire Chris Finch thread

[shrink]

Finch deserves credit for solving DEN.
Finch deserves credit for finding ways for Jaylen Clark and TJ Shannon to help, and getting them ready to contribute
Finch deserves credit for reintegrating the injured players seamlessly
Finch deserves credit for finding the way to unlock Julius Randle.

Which does he deserve the most credit for? Which the least?

Finch was given a hugely talented team and lead them to 32-29 post all star break. Yes we won 6 in a row to salvage the season (so far,) but that does not excuse going 32-29. Jaden turning things on in January/February instead of October is also a damning indicator of Finch not knowing how to get the best out of his players. The list is equally long on negatives including not getting the team to play with motivation in first quarters, third quarters, against bad teams, and in crunch time.

You really need to try to get a level head here.

When the team does well, you give credit to the players. When the team does poorly, you always blame Finch, often retroactively, as you are doing here.

You have set up an unwinnable logic situation to justify your own feelings, and no events can shake you from it when you chose those standards. You are not putting your beliefs to the test.

[winforlose]

Finch deserves credit for solving DEN.
Finch deserves credit for finding ways for Jaylen Clark and TJ Shannon to help, and getting them ready to contribute
Finch deserves credit for reintegrating the injured players seamlessly
Finch deserves credit for finding the way to unlock Julius Randle.

Which does he deserve the most credit for? Which the least?

Finch was given a hugely talented team and lead them to 32-29 post all star break. Yes we won 6 in a row to salvage the season (so far,) but that does not excuse going 32-29. Jaden turning things on in January/February instead of October is also a damning indicator of Finch not knowing how to get the best out of his players. The list is equally long on negatives including not getting the team to play with motivation in first quarters, third quarters, against bad teams, and in crunch time.

You really need to try to get a level head here.

When the team does well, you give credit to the players. When the team does poorly, you always blame Finch, often retroactively, as you are doing here.

You have set up an unwinnable logic situation to justify your own feelings, and no events can shake you from it when you chose those standards. You are not putting your beliefs to the test.

I disagree, but I am unsure how to challenge your position. Anything I say you dismiss as emotional or closed mind thinking. The better response is to ask you what you expect of a HC in the NBA? In order to have a productive conversation we need to establish a reasonable criteria by which to judge coaches and then compare specific coaches to that criteria. Does that sound fair?

[shrink]

Finch was given a hugely talented team and lead them to 32-29 post all star break. Yes we won 6 in a row to salvage the season (so far,) but that does not excuse going 32-29. Jaden turning things on in January/February instead of October is also a damning indicator of Finch not knowing how to get the best out of his players. The list is equally long on negatives including not getting the team to play with motivation in first quarters, third quarters, against bad teams, and in crunch time.

You really need to try to get a level head here.

When the team does well, you give credit to the players. When the team does poorly, you always blame Finch, often retroactively, as you are doing here.

You have set up an unwinnable logic situation to justify your own feelings, and no events can shake you from it when you chose those standards. You are not putting your beliefs to the test.

I disagree, but I am unsure how to challenge your position. Anything I say you dismiss as emotional or closed mind thinking. The better response is to ask you what you expect of a HC in the NBA? In order to have a productive conversation we need to establish reasonable criteria by which to judge coaches and then compare specific coaches to that criteria. Does that sound fair?

What would Finch have to do to change your opinion? It sounds like you have closed the door to anything. That’s not a fair position.

You even blame him for successes, because the successes didn’t happen earlier. Come on.

So you tell me. Is there anything he could do in your eyes?

[winforlose]

You really need to try to get a level head here.

When the team does well, you give credit to the players. When the team does poorly, you always blame Finch, often retroactively, as you are doing here.

You have set up an unwinnable logic situation to justify your own feelings, and no events can shake you from it when you chose those standards. You are not putting your beliefs to the test.

I disagree, but I am unsure how to challenge your position. Anything I say you dismiss as emotional or closed mind thinking. The better response is to ask you what you expect of a HC in the NBA? In order to have a productive conversation we need to establish reasonable criteria by which to judge coaches and then compare specific coaches to that criteria. Does that sound fair?

What would Finch have to do to change your opinion? It sounds like you have closed the door to anything. That’s not a fair position.

You even blame him for successes, because the successes didn’t happen earlier. Come on.

So you tell me. Is there anything he could do in your eyes?

Since you won’t answer my question, I will answer yours. There are things Finch can do to change my opinion about him. This list is not comprehensive, and I will add that he has gotten better at calling timeouts when game management demands them.

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

2. Finch could be more flexible with his rotations. We tend to see a lot of the same substitutions at the same times regardless of circumstances. This is a formula that has led to hot hands being benched for cold ones, and that has lost winnable games.

3. We need to be more flexible and adaptable defensively. A good example is the recent loss to OKC. We blitzed SGA so much that we allowed OKC to rain down 3s and I believe they dropped 7 in a row. It is just an easy off the top of my head example, but we are slow to react to the hot hand in general. Houstan going off on us tonight and not enough defensive adjustments to contain him is another example.

4. More offensive structure especially late game would help our offense. Jaden took only two shots in the first half. We start the 2nd half with a designed play for Jaden. It shouldn’t be the case that most of our structured offense is after time outs. We need to do a better job with play sets so we don’t devolve into the kinda crap that often leads to stagnant offense and defensive collapse. The 3rd quarter tonight is one example but there are plenty more. Another easy example is Jim Pete said Finch was worried Jaden wouldn’t shoot enough with everyone back. Jaden took 6 shots tonight. Well most structured offenses don’t need to worry about getting guys to shoot, because they run actions to get them open and in their spots. Finch needs to be more deliberate with his offense and hunting mismatches off of switches or finding ways to get guys to their spots.

I, like many other people here loved Finch early on. He was a breath of fresh air after Ryan and Thibs. But, Finch doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes between seasons, I am not seeing the player growth I expect between seasons, and I am not seeing new players used properly. Finch could learn from his contemporaries and adapt. The man might be a genius, but if the players won’t follow him to where he is trying to lead, then that doesn’t matter. What can Finch do to change my opinion of him in the short term? pull Ant when he goes hero mode late. Call more offensive plays and run a more structured offense to maximize Ant, Naz, DDV, and especially Jaden. Change defensive coverages and rotations to better account for other teams game plans and to make us harder to handle.

[shrink]

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

Finch helped McDaniels overcome his key flaws. And you turn it around on him and say he’s a coach bad because it didn’t happen fast enough for you.

He helped Randle overcome key flaws, and he is no longer pounding the ball into the paint every time he touches the ball.

And you don’t think Jalen Clark has developed? NAW? Naz Reid? Hell, Ant has developed tremendously!

This is exactly my point man. You look for reasons to blame Finch, and ignore everything else, even if it fits your criteria. What’s your reason for dismissing all of that?

[winforlose]

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

Finch helped McDaniels overcome his key flaws. And you turn it around on him and say he’s a coach bad because it didn’t happen fast enough for you.

He helped Randle overcome key flaws, and he is no longer pounding the ball into the paint every time he touches the ball.

And you don’t think Jalen Clark has developed? NAW? Naz Reid? Hell, Ant has developed tremendously!

This is exactly my point man. You look for reasons to blame Finch, and ignore everything else, even if it fits your criteria. What’s your reason for dismissing all of that?

Let’s work on this. What specific key flaws do you think Finch helped Clark and Naz overcome? Did Jaden overcome his? In my opinion tonight Jaden committed the same mistake and it could have easily lost the game. Jaden only took 6 shots. He hit 4 by the way. Ant made the same mistakes he made all year and nearly lost us the game (we only won because hero mode Ant made shots.) Randle’s problem wasn’t lack of ball movement, it was lack of defensive engagement. We have seen more effort in that regard from Randle, but I find it hard to attribute that to a coach. If Finch had benched Randle and favored Naz and made it clear that Randle’s defensive effort was the thing that will determine his minutes (something Finch has done with multiple players over the years,) then I could attribute that to Finch.

[shrink]

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

Finch helped McDaniels overcome his key flaws. And you turn it around on him and say he’s a coach bad because it didn’t happen fast enough for you.

He helped Randle overcome key flaws, and he is no longer pounding the ball into the paint every time he touches the ball.

And you don’t think Jalen Clark has developed? NAW? Naz Reid? Hell, Ant has developed tremendously!

This is exactly my point man. You look for reasons to blame Finch, and ignore everything else, even if it fits your criteria. What’s your reason for dismissing all of that?

Let’s work on this. What specific key flaws do you think Finch helped Clark and Naz overcome? Did Jaden overcome his? In my opinion tonight Jaden committed the same mistake and it could have easily lost the game. Jaden only took 6 shots. He hit 4 by the way. Ant made the same mistakes he made all year and nearly lost us the game (we only won because hero mode Ant made shots.) Randle’s problem wasn’t lack of ball movement, it was lack of defensive engagement. We have seen more effort in that regard from Randle, but I find it hard to attribute that to a coach. If Finch had benched Randle and favored Naz and made it clear that Randle’s defensive effort was the thing that will determine his minutes (something Finch has done with multiple players over the years,) then I could attribute that to Finch.

First, why are you trying to isolate “specific key flaws?” For instance, Naz is clearly better than he was three years ago when Finch arrived - does Finch get no credit when you for list your criteria as “Part of the job is player development?” In his case specifically, Naz has become a better defender when paired with Gobert. How is none of that synergy not Finch-based?

I could go through each one of these, but it takes a lot of intentional blindness to not see any player development in Clark, NAW, Naz, Jaden and Ant. Even if you specifically select Randle’s problem as “lack of defensive engagement,” his improvement there came when Finch started using him as more of a point forward. But not Finch? Edwards has literally become a top 10 player in the league, improvements everywhere, but since he still has some flaws, then your conclusion is that Finch hasn’t done his job?!?

I think you have decided Finch is bad, so you force yourself to ignore the progress the team and individual players have made. To do so, you need to isolate only on specific areas (“key flaws”) to be your criteria, to force the facts to fit your opinion. You are an exceptional poster here, but regardless of whether someone likes or dislikes Finch, I think they need to look at the whole picture for a fair picture.

[Baseline81]

First, why are you trying to isolate “specific key flaws?” For instance, Naz is clearly better than he was three years ago when Finch arrived - does Finch get no credit when you for list your criteria as “Part of the job is player development?” In his case specifically, Naz has become a better defender when paired with Gobert. How is none of that synergy not Finch-based?

I could go through each one of these, but it takes a lot of intentional blindness to not see any player development in Clark, NAW, Naz, Jaden and Ant. Even if you specifically select Randle’s problem as “lack of defensive engagement,” his improvement there came when Finch started using him as more of a point forward. But not Finch? Edwards has literally become a top 10 player in the league, improvements everywhere, but since he still has some flaws, then your conclusion is that Finch hasn’t done his job?!?

I think you have decided Finch is bad, so you force yourself to ignore the progress the team and individual players have made. To do so, you need to isolate only on specific areas (“key flaws”) to be your criteria, to force the facts to fit your opinion. You are an exceptional poster here, but regardless of whether someone likes or dislikes Finch, I think they need to look at the whole picture for a fair picture.

I know I'm inserting myself into the this discussion, but I wouldn't say he's bad. Rather, IMO, he's taken the team as far as he can (playoffs), which for most fans of this franchise would be enough considering how poorly run its been. Yet, you don't play the game just to reach the postseason. The goal is a championship.

But again, even the casual fan can see how talented this squad is, outside of maybe Garnett's run to the WCF. Should we accept being a 5-7 seed, especially when you can clearly see solvable issues which would have guaranteed home-court advantage in the first round?

[winforlose]

Finch helped McDaniels overcome his key flaws. And you turn it around on him and say he’s a coach bad because it didn’t happen fast enough for you.

He helped Randle overcome key flaws, and he is no longer pounding the ball into the paint every time he touches the ball.

And you don’t think Jalen Clark has developed? NAW? Naz Reid? Hell, Ant has developed tremendously!

This is exactly my point man. You look for reasons to blame Finch, and ignore everything else, even if it fits your criteria. What’s your reason for dismissing all of that?

Let’s work on this. What specific key flaws do you think Finch helped Clark and Naz overcome? Did Jaden overcome his? In my opinion tonight Jaden committed the same mistake and it could have easily lost the game. Jaden only took 6 shots. He hit 4 by the way. Ant made the same mistakes he made all year and nearly lost us the game (we only won because hero mode Ant made shots.) Randle’s problem wasn’t lack of ball movement, it was lack of defensive engagement. We have seen more effort in that regard from Randle, but I find it hard to attribute that to a coach. If Finch had benched Randle and favored Naz and made it clear that Randle’s defensive effort was the thing that will determine his minutes (something Finch has done with multiple players over the years,) then I could attribute that to Finch.

First, why are you trying to isolate “specific key flaws?” For instance, Naz is clearly better than he was three years ago when Finch arrived - does Finch get no credit when you for list your criteria as “Part of the job is player development?” In his case specifically, Naz has become a better defender when paired with Gobert. How is none of that synergy not Finch-based?

I could go through each one of these, but it takes a lot of intentional blindness to not see any player development in Clark, NAW, Naz, Jaden and Ant. Even if you specifically select Randle’s problem as “lack of defensive engagement,” his improvement there came when Finch started using him as more of a point forward. But not Finch? Edwards has literally become a top 10 player in the league, improvements everywhere, but since he still has some flaws, then your conclusion is that Finch hasn’t done his job?!?

I think you have decided Finch is bad, so you force yourself to ignore the progress the team and individual players have made. To do so, you need to isolate only on specific areas (“key flaws”) to be your criteria, to force the facts to fit your opinion. You are an exceptional poster here, but regardless of whether someone likes or dislikes Finch, I think they need to look at the whole picture for a fair picture.

I focus on key flaws because that is the area of greatest need for help to improve. The argument that rookie or sophomore player will not improve their game without good coaching is just silly. Human beings learn by doing, and adapt to their situation. Of course Naz in year 5 is better than Naz in year 2. The issue is what part of Naz’s game did Finch help to expand or correct. What can you pin point and say “that is clearly Finch’s influence?”

Finch in year one and two identified problems in the games of multiple players. Ant’s was the ball getting sticky end of game and Jaden’s was not shooting enough or being involved enough in the offense. Every year since Finch talks about he wants to change that this season. Every year since it has not changed. In Jaden’s case we finally saw progress on it in January and February. However since guys got healthy the game plan has not emphasized a more offensive role for Jaden. Jim Pete said two interesting things about that last night, these are paraphrases. “Finch does not want Jaden to revert back to how he was before the injuries,” “Finch does not want to run additional action for Jaden.” It is easy to see how both things can be true because Finch uses a hands off offensive scheme. The problem is, the HC is responsible for ensuring the game plan is executed on the court. If the game plan is Jaden takes 12 shots and he takes 6, then something went wrong.

I went into extra detail to again highlight the difference between natural development over time and specific coaching help to improve the player. Yes there could be some overlap that a generic coach might not reach. It is possible a bad coach could misuse the player so much as to stunt development, or limit their minutes and opponents so much as to damage their confidence. That being said, it is also possible that a great coach can help a player unlock more of the game and find their next level.

[shrink]

I give up. You claim your criteria for good coaching is player development, but at the same time believe when players improve it’s natural, the player gets all the credit, the coaching staff gets none.

If players don’t improve everywhere, then that’s a specific issue. Somehow, that is the coaches problem, not the players.

And now, even if they do fix a specific issue (McDaniels), that still is the coaches problem, if they don’t do it fast enough for you.

You find this a reasonable criteria to rank coaches. I think you have created an unwinnable situation, but its not worth continued argueing.

[jscott]

FIRE CHRIS FINCH…

…UP A GRILL AND THROW A STEAK ON IT FOR HIM! CRACK A BEER OPEN!! SIT HIM DOWN AND CONGRATULATE HIM!!!

[winforlose]

I give up. You claim your criteria for good coaching is player development, but at the same time believe when players improve it’s natural, the player gets all the credit, the coaching staff gets none.

If players don’t improve everywhere, then that’s a specific issue. Somehow, that is the coaches problem, not the players.

And now, even if they do fix a specific issue (McDaniels), that still is the coaches problem, if they don’t do it fast enough for you.

You find this a reasonable criteria to rank coaches. I think you have created an unwinnable situation, but its not worth continued argueing.

I find your approach to this argument flawed to say the least. You refuse to tell me what a coaches role should be, you refuse to tell me how a coach should be graded, you refuse to speak to the individual criteria I lay about above, and all you want to talk about is that a guy like Ant cannot possibly get better without good coaching. He started at 19. What do you expect happens when he plays in the NBA for 5 years? Do you think repetition and experience aren’t factors in all professional growth. You are being 100% unreasonable and then you turn around and blame me for it. Finch makes the same mistakes over and over without ever adjusting for them. That is why Ant keeps going hero mode and Jaden is not featured enough in the offense. Our lack of structure makes us vulnerable to 3rd quarters like we had last night. You want me to praise Finch, he doesn’t suck as much regarding timely timeouts. But that does not change the fact that Naz is not starting and struggling, DDV is not starting despite being a part of the most important moments of most games, that TSJ is getting DNP-CD again, and that Clark is in the same crappy .5 rotation spot that damaged Minott and Dillingham. You are so full of crap on this you cannot even articulate what you think Finch is doing well. All you can do is attack me without any specifics.

[shangrila]

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

I think Shrink covered this point fairly well, but it's clear that players have improved under Finch. Whether you want to assign that to coaching or the player is I guess personal opinion, but if the metric is simply whether or not players have improved then you can check that box.

If your opinion is they haven't improved enough...well, growth isn't linear. And it's clear that Finch and the coaching staff at large prefers to work with the players, rather than dictating what they must do. I understand that they chafes against your personal beliefs on that topic, given multiple comments you made earlier in the season about Randle, but from my own personal experience in leadership roles his methods are far more effective than the "my way or GTFO" one you seem fond of.

I believe you also made a comment about guys getting DNPs or limited minutes. That's a simple roster crunch. As much as you'd like to play DDV, NAW, Conley, Ant, Jaylen and TSJ all in the one game, every game, you're going to have diminishing returns if you spread out the minutes too much over what's largely 2 positions (maybe 3 if you want to toss SF in there, but then you'll be adding in McDaniels).

It's also important to remember that not every player is develop-able. Minott, for all the complaining about him not getting minutes including from myself, has proven that he's still the same player he always was even back in the G League; making the same lapses defensively, getting blown by, etc. And the same is, to this point, unfortunately true of Leonard Miller. And that's ok. Not every player that gets drafted is or will be an NBA player. That's not a knock on the coaching staff, it just means they can't turn **** into gold.

2. Finch could be more flexible with his rotations. We tend to see a lot of the same substitutions at the same times regardless of circumstances. This is a formula that has led to hot hands being benched for cold ones, and that has lost winnable games.

I haven't noticed that personally so I'll take your word for this one.

3. We need to be more flexible and adaptable defensively. A good example is the recent loss to OKC. We blitzed SGA so much that we allowed OKC to rain down 3s and I believe they dropped 7 in a row. It is just an easy off the top of my head example, but we are slow to react to the hot hand in general. Houstan going off on us tonight and not enough defensive adjustments to contain him is another example.

Overcorrecting can be just as bad as doing nothing. If you want to use the Caleb Houstan example, we did a good job making it tough on Paulo/Franz (particularly Franz) and trying to make the rest of the team beat us. Which is a sound strategy, given they're a defence first team with limited scorers. So Caleb hits 6 threes; that's concerning, but do you start trying to adjust your defence to compensate? What knock on effect does that have? What happens if you then let Franz get going? Who would you prefer to beat you, Caleb or Franz?

I believe there's more nuance to this than you're allowing.

4. More offensive structure especially late game would help our offense. Jaden took only two shots in the first half. We start the 2nd half with a designed play for Jaden. It shouldn’t be the case that most of our structured offense is after time outs. We need to do a better job with play sets so we don’t devolve into the kinda crap that often leads to stagnant offense and defensive collapse. The 3rd quarter tonight is one example but there are plenty more. Another easy example is Jim Pete said Finch was worried Jaden wouldn’t shoot enough with everyone back. Jaden took 6 shots tonight. Well most structured offenses don’t need to worry about getting guys to shoot, because they run actions to get them open and in their spots. Finch needs to be more deliberate with his offense and hunting mismatches off of switches or finding ways to get guys to their spots.

You seem to be conflating two different things here. A structured offence is different to exploiting mismatches. And Jaden is more of a free flowing kind of player who's better when he's making timely cuts and driving off a scrambling defence, so you could argue that he's better in situations without set plays.

Overall I do agree to an extent. I get why Finch keeps trying to implement his free flowing offence but it's been enough seasons now of it falling flat in the regular season that it's time we start with more set plays straight out of gate. That said, when he does implement plays they're effective as we're seeing now. I'd prefer Jaden get more touches, maybe around 10 shots a game at minimum, but at the same time I get that it's going to vary from night to night and we need to take what the defence is giving.

I, like many other people here loved Finch early on. He was a breath of fresh air after Ryan and Thibs. But, Finch doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes between seasons, I am not seeing the player growth I expect between seasons, and I am not seeing new players used properly. Finch could learn from his contemporaries and adapt. The man might be a genius, but if the players won’t follow him to where he is trying to lead, then that doesn’t matter. What can Finch do to change my opinion of him in the short term? pull Ant when he goes hero mode late. Call more offensive plays and run a more structured offense to maximize Ant, Naz, DDV, and especially Jaden. Change defensive coverages and rotations to better account for other teams game plans and to make us harder to handle.

A little off topic, but the bolded is a problem I have with the discourse in general around here.

I don't believe most people, if any, that post around here would have any idea what a realistic expectation would be for something like this. But when the expectations set by you aren't met, rather than taking a moment to look inward to examine if your initial expectations were wrong it instantly becomes somebody else's fault. We were a championship team last season, most people said, and so when we didn't win it had to be because Finch is incompetent, or KAT is a bum, or Ant is immature, etc, etc.

Ultimately sports fans are reactionary, I get that, and maybe my opinions are coloured specifically because I'm part of this fandom and not any others. But I've honestly never seen a more bipolar, impatient collection of people than what exists in Timberwolves fandom. And this comment isn't specific to or direct at you, just something general I've had in my head for a while.

[winforlose]

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

I think Shrink covered this point fairly well, but it's clear that players have improved under Finch. Whether you want to assign that to coaching or the player is I guess personal opinion, but if the metric is simply whether or not players have improved then you can check that box.

If your opinion is they haven't improved enough...well, growth isn't linear. And it's clear that Finch and the coaching staff at large prefers to work with the players, rather than dictating what they must do. I understand that they chafes against your personal beliefs on that topic, given multiple comments you made earlier in the season about Randle, but from my own personal experience in leadership roles his methods are far more effective than the "my way or GTFO" one you seem fond of.

I believe you also made a comment about guys getting DNPs or limited minutes. That's a simple roster crunch. As much as you'd like to play DDV, NAW, Conley, Ant, Jaylen and TSJ all in the one game, every game, you're going to have diminishing returns if you spread out the minutes too much over what's largely 2 positions (maybe 3 if you want to toss SF in there, but then you'll be adding in McDaniels).

It's also important to remember that not every player is develop-able. Minott, for all the complaining about him not getting minutes including from myself, has proven that he's still the same player he always was even back in the G League; making the same lapses defensively, getting blown by, etc. And the same is, to this point, unfortunately true of Leonard Miller. And that's ok. Not every player that gets drafted is or will be an NBA player. That's not a knock on the coaching staff, it just means they can't turn **** into gold.

2. Finch could be more flexible with his rotations. We tend to see a lot of the same substitutions at the same times regardless of circumstances. This is a formula that has led to hot hands being benched for cold ones, and that has lost winnable games.

I haven't noticed that personally so I'll take your word for this one.

3. We need to be more flexible and adaptable defensively. A good example is the recent loss to OKC. We blitzed SGA so much that we allowed OKC to rain down 3s and I believe they dropped 7 in a row. It is just an easy off the top of my head example, but we are slow to react to the hot hand in general. Houstan going off on us tonight and not enough defensive adjustments to contain him is another example.

Overcorrecting can be just as bad as doing nothing. If you want to use the Caleb Houstan example, we did a good job making it tough on Paulo/Franz (particularly Franz) and trying to make the rest of the team beat us. Which is a sound strategy, given they're a defence first team with limited scorers. So Caleb hits 6 threes; that's concerning, but do you start trying to adjust your defence to compensate? What knock on effect does that have? What happens if you then let Franz get going? Who would you prefer to beat you, Caleb or Franz?

I believe there's more nuance to this than you're allowing.

4. More offensive structure especially late game would help our offense. Jaden took only two shots in the first half. We start the 2nd half with a designed play for Jaden. It shouldn’t be the case that most of our structured offense is after time outs. We need to do a better job with play sets so we don’t devolve into the kinda crap that often leads to stagnant offense and defensive collapse. The 3rd quarter tonight is one example but there are plenty more. Another easy example is Jim Pete said Finch was worried Jaden wouldn’t shoot enough with everyone back. Jaden took 6 shots tonight. Well most structured offenses don’t need to worry about getting guys to shoot, because they run actions to get them open and in their spots. Finch needs to be more deliberate with his offense and hunting mismatches off of switches or finding ways to get guys to their spots.

You seem to be conflating two different things here. A structured offence is different to exploiting mismatches. And Jaden is more of a free flowing kind of player who's better when he's making timely cuts and driving off a scrambling defence, so you could argue that he's better in situations without set plays.

Overall I do agree to an extent. I get why Finch keeps trying to implement his free flowing offence but it's been enough seasons now of it falling flat in the regular season that it's time we start with more set plays straight out of gate. That said, when he does implement plays they're effective as we're seeing now. I'd prefer Jaden get more touches, maybe around 10 shots a game at minimum, but at the same time I get that it's going to vary from night to night and we need to take what the defence is giving.

I, like many other people here loved Finch early on. He was a breath of fresh air after Ryan and Thibs. But, Finch doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes between seasons, I am not seeing the player growth I expect between seasons, and I am not seeing new players used properly. Finch could learn from his contemporaries and adapt. The man might be a genius, but if the players won’t follow him to where he is trying to lead, then that doesn’t matter. What can Finch do to change my opinion of him in the short term? pull Ant when he goes hero mode late. Call more offensive plays and run a more structured offense to maximize Ant, Naz, DDV, and especially Jaden. Change defensive coverages and rotations to better account for other teams game plans and to make us harder to handle.

A little off topic, but the bolded is a problem I have with the discourse in general around here.

I don't believe most people, if any, that post around here would have any idea what a realistic expectation would be for something like this. But when the expectations set by you aren't met, rather than taking a moment to look inward to examine if your initial expectations were wrong it instantly becomes somebody else's fault. We were a championship team last season, most people said, and so when we didn't win it had to be because Finch is incompetent, or KAT is a bum, or Ant is immature, etc, etc.

Ultimately sports fans are reactionary, I get that, and maybe my opinions are coloured specifically because I'm part of this fandom and not any others. But I've honestly never seen a more bipolar, impatient collection of people than what exists in Timberwolves fandom. And this comment isn't specific to or direct at you, just something general I've had in my head for a while.

Let’s break this down a bit. If a player gets hurt we go next man up. When DDV and Randle went down that brought more guys in. Many of those bring them in guys are rookies or rookie scale players who have not had a lot of minutes of meaningful basketball. If you play all the starters 5 less minutes and manage to win while developing 2 or 3 additional players, that is the sweet spot. Taking minutes off of guys like Mike and NAW and finding consistent rotations for Clark and Shannon could be very important if someone goes down and we need one of them to step up.

Regarding the offensive structure and taking advantages of mismatches being conflated, I strongly disagree. I watch teams like Dallas and OKC run offense with the intent of creating the mismatch and then knowing exactly what to do with it. Whether that is drive and kick or drive and finish, or spin cycle for the open shooter, or whatever else, it is quite common. Most teams playing switching scheme on defense and it is surprisingly easy to get a mismatch when you set out to accomplish it, (see Luka getting Rudy in that key moment of game 1 against Dallas in the WCF last year.) Beyond that, structured offense prevents the kind of bad hero ball shots that Ant takes end of game. The ball does not stick if there is a system keeping it moving.

I could go on and address everything else, but I don’t see the point. I think the difference between the consistent teams and the non consistent teams is leadership and structure. Even on tired legs knowing what to do without having to wing it makes things easier and leads to better outcomes. I agree that Finch is probably one of the better coaches we have ever had, but I also think that is a low bar to clear. We need to move to the next level of coach to get Ant, Jaden, Naz, and everyone else to their next level.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

Long discussion! For me I retained 2 things, one positive and one negative for Finch.
The positive is that yes almost all players have improved with him and his team.
The negative is the way he control ANT sometimes. But ANT seems not easy to manage( cf his private issues, cf his fines on the court)… and I notice a slight improvement in ANT attitude last few games.

[shangrila]

1. Finch needs to help players overcome their key flaws. Ant continues to sabotage games in the clutch, including tonight. He played a ton of hero ball and we only won because he made shots. A good coach does not allow a star player to keep making the same mistake over and over again for years. We see other forms of this with other players as well. Part of the job is player development.

I think Shrink covered this point fairly well, but it's clear that players have improved under Finch. Whether you want to assign that to coaching or the player is I guess personal opinion, but if the metric is simply whether or not players have improved then you can check that box.

If your opinion is they haven't improved enough...well, growth isn't linear. And it's clear that Finch and the coaching staff at large prefers to work with the players, rather than dictating what they must do. I understand that they chafes against your personal beliefs on that topic, given multiple comments you made earlier in the season about Randle, but from my own personal experience in leadership roles his methods are far more effective than the "my way or GTFO" one you seem fond of.

I believe you also made a comment about guys getting DNPs or limited minutes. That's a simple roster crunch. As much as you'd like to play DDV, NAW, Conley, Ant, Jaylen and TSJ all in the one game, every game, you're going to have diminishing returns if you spread out the minutes too much over what's largely 2 positions (maybe 3 if you want to toss SF in there, but then you'll be adding in McDaniels).

It's also important to remember that not every player is develop-able. Minott, for all the complaining about him not getting minutes including from myself, has proven that he's still the same player he always was even back in the G League; making the same lapses defensively, getting blown by, etc. And the same is, to this point, unfortunately true of Leonard Miller. And that's ok. Not every player that gets drafted is or will be an NBA player. That's not a knock on the coaching staff, it just means they can't turn **** into gold.

2. Finch could be more flexible with his rotations. We tend to see a lot of the same substitutions at the same times regardless of circumstances. This is a formula that has led to hot hands being benched for cold ones, and that has lost winnable games.

I haven't noticed that personally so I'll take your word for this one.

3. We need to be more flexible and adaptable defensively. A good example is the recent loss to OKC. We blitzed SGA so much that we allowed OKC to rain down 3s and I believe they dropped 7 in a row. It is just an easy off the top of my head example, but we are slow to react to the hot hand in general. Houstan going off on us tonight and not enough defensive adjustments to contain him is another example.

Overcorrecting can be just as bad as doing nothing. If you want to use the Caleb Houstan example, we did a good job making it tough on Paulo/Franz (particularly Franz) and trying to make the rest of the team beat us. Which is a sound strategy, given they're a defence first team with limited scorers. So Caleb hits 6 threes; that's concerning, but do you start trying to adjust your defence to compensate? What knock on effect does that have? What happens if you then let Franz get going? Who would you prefer to beat you, Caleb or Franz?

I believe there's more nuance to this than you're allowing.

4. More offensive structure especially late game would help our offense. Jaden took only two shots in the first half. We start the 2nd half with a designed play for Jaden. It shouldn’t be the case that most of our structured offense is after time outs. We need to do a better job with play sets so we don’t devolve into the kinda crap that often leads to stagnant offense and defensive collapse. The 3rd quarter tonight is one example but there are plenty more. Another easy example is Jim Pete said Finch was worried Jaden wouldn’t shoot enough with everyone back. Jaden took 6 shots tonight. Well most structured offenses don’t need to worry about getting guys to shoot, because they run actions to get them open and in their spots. Finch needs to be more deliberate with his offense and hunting mismatches off of switches or finding ways to get guys to their spots.

You seem to be conflating two different things here. A structured offence is different to exploiting mismatches. And Jaden is more of a free flowing kind of player who's better when he's making timely cuts and driving off a scrambling defence, so you could argue that he's better in situations without set plays.

Overall I do agree to an extent. I get why Finch keeps trying to implement his free flowing offence but it's been enough seasons now of it falling flat in the regular season that it's time we start with more set plays straight out of gate. That said, when he does implement plays they're effective as we're seeing now. I'd prefer Jaden get more touches, maybe around 10 shots a game at minimum, but at the same time I get that it's going to vary from night to night and we need to take what the defence is giving.

I, like many other people here loved Finch early on. He was a breath of fresh air after Ryan and Thibs. But, Finch doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes between seasons, I am not seeing the player growth I expect between seasons, and I am not seeing new players used properly. Finch could learn from his contemporaries and adapt. The man might be a genius, but if the players won’t follow him to where he is trying to lead, then that doesn’t matter. What can Finch do to change my opinion of him in the short term? pull Ant when he goes hero mode late. Call more offensive plays and run a more structured offense to maximize Ant, Naz, DDV, and especially Jaden. Change defensive coverages and rotations to better account for other teams game plans and to make us harder to handle.

A little off topic, but the bolded is a problem I have with the discourse in general around here.

I don't believe most people, if any, that post around here would have any idea what a realistic expectation would be for something like this. But when the expectations set by you aren't met, rather than taking a moment to look inward to examine if your initial expectations were wrong it instantly becomes somebody else's fault. We were a championship team last season, most people said, and so when we didn't win it had to be because Finch is incompetent, or KAT is a bum, or Ant is immature, etc, etc.

Ultimately sports fans are reactionary, I get that, and maybe my opinions are coloured specifically because I'm part of this fandom and not any others. But I've honestly never seen a more bipolar, impatient collection of people than what exists in Timberwolves fandom. And this comment isn't specific to or direct at you, just something general I've had in my head for a while.

Let’s break this down a bit. If a player gets hurt we go next man up. When DDV and Randle went down that brought more guys in. Many of those bring them in guys are rookies or rookie scale players who have not had a lot of minutes of meaningful basketball. If you play all the starters 5 less minutes and manage to win while developing 2 or 3 additional players, that is the sweet spot. Taking minutes off of guys like Mike and NAW and finding consistent rotations for Clark and Shannon could be very important if someone goes down and we need one of them to step up.

Regarding the offensive structure and taking advantages of mismatches being conflated, I strongly disagree. I watch teams like Dallas and OKC run offense with the intent of creating the mismatch and then knowing exactly what to do with it. Whether that is drive and kick or drive and finish, or spin cycle for the open shooter, or whatever else, it is quite common. Most teams playing switching scheme on defense and it is surprisingly easy to get a mismatch when you set out to accomplish it, (see Luka getting Rudy in that key moment of game 1 against Dallas in the WCF last year.) Beyond that, structured offense prevents the kind of bad hero ball shots that Ant takes end of game. The ball does not stick if there is a system keeping it moving.

I could go on and address everything else, but I don’t see the point. I think the difference between the consistent teams and the non consistent teams is leadership and structure. Even on tired legs knowing what to do without having to wing it makes things easier and leads to better outcomes. I agree that Finch is probably one of the better coaches we have ever had, but I also think that is a low bar to clear. We need to move to the next level of coach to get Ant, Jaden, Naz, and everyone else to their next level.

Suit yourself then.

[Klomp]

But again, even the casual fan can see how talented this squad is, outside of maybe Garnett's run to the WCF. Should we accept being a 5-7 seed, especially when you can clearly see solvable issues which would have guaranteed home-court advantage in the first round?

It's important when making claims like this to remember that the talent of the NBA as a whole is far better and deeper than it was 20 years ago. So just comparing rosters doesn't give the full picture.

[winforlose]

I think it is funny and fitting that we likely end up a road team while performing better on the road most of the season.

[dschroeder01]

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[BlacJacMac]

A big part of this Wolves organization becoming an organization that really develops their young talent is the summers.

What has changed in recent years is that players are actually in Minnesota in the summer, working out here together. This was not a thing under previous iterations of this team in my time covering it. Most players would leave Minnesota in April and not come back until training camp in October. That's changed, as Jaylen Clark describes here.

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