What does Jokic have to do to be considered GOAT of all time?

Buckeye-NBAFan · Post #161 » by **Buckeye-NBAFan** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 4:22 pm

It's crazy how much better Jokic would be perceived if he had played with another all-star like a Pippen or Wade or Klay Thompson or Kobe all his career, instead of never having an all-star teammate

But that's out of his control, unless he leaves Denver

MavsDirk41 · Post #162 » by **MavsDirk41** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 4:27 pm

Chokic wrote:Ppl dont think LeBron will ever surpass Jordan yet think Jokic has a slim chance? The jokic glaze here is wild. He will finish his career outside the top 10 between 13-15.

If he wins another championship i think he is knocking on the door of the top 10 for sure. Goat? No not at all, but top 10? Yes for sure. His peak these last few years would rival anyones.

Onlytimewilltel · Post #163 » by **Onlytimewilltel** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 4:35 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:Play defense...there are two sides of a basketball court.
You can't reasonably be the greatest of all time if you only exert effort on one end of the court.

Read on Twitter

Are we sure that was Sarr and not the unknown son Garnett and Dirk conceived?

FuShengTHEGreat · Post #164 » by **FuShengTHEGreat** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 4:43 pm

He'll never have the the combined 2 way play/defensive impact of a prime Kareem or Hakeem (in my personal opinion the top 2 Centers in NBA history). I hold it against him that he'll likely never be elite at the defensive end. Part of it is his limited athleticism and part of it is sometimes he doesnt try hard enough

I dont believe in a overall GOAT in basketball, but no matter how much he wins going forward and even hypothetically if he won 7 rings it would still be hard for me to even place him as the GOAT Center.

And thats no fault of his own, its just hard at the Center to position to say theres 1 that stands clearly above everyone else.

Some prefer Russell #1 for his defense/leadership and winning 11 titles.

Some prefer Wilt #1 with many unreachable individual records, inhumane athletic feats and rebounding.

Some prefer Kareems ATG scoring and longevity and accolades.

Some prefer Hakeems versaility at both ends and playoff rising across the board vs regular season.

Some prefer Shaq for brute physical dominance and his 3peat peak.

I can't just immediately put anyone over any of those guys and not say they don't have arguments as well. The bar has beem set too high.

_NoMas · Post #165 » by **_NoMas** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 4:59 pm

He’s on his way top to top 10 all time. Couple more rings and he could sniff top 5. He can never the the goat though lol that’s crazy talk

bovice · Post #166 » by **bovice** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 5:27 pm

who cares. don't y'all get tired of these subjective topics over and over again. everyone has different criteria and different weights for how they evaluate players.
personally, I pushed LeBron out of the top 5 after space jam 2 flopped

Jedi32 · Post #167 » by **Jedi32** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 6:05 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:Play defense...there are two sides of a basketball court.
You can't reasonably be the greatest of all time if you only exert effort on one end of the court.

Read on Twitter

yeah that was pretty bad.

Statlanta · Post #168 » by **Statlanta** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 6:29 pm

He would have to end his career flawlessly, like 5-7 rings or 7 MVPs to make up for the early gap the other Centers, Michael Jordan and LeBron James have at the start of their careers. He also needs his own offensive records to cover up the defensive stigma.

M2J · Post #169 » by **M2J** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 6:58 pm

Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:It's crazy how much better Jokic would be perceived if he had played with another all-star like a Pippen or Wade or Klay Thompson or Kobe all his career, instead of never having an all-star teammate

But that's out of his control, unless he leaves Denver

It would just take away from his usage and stats. He still can't defend

Nate505 · Post #170 » by **Nate505** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 7:21 pm

bovice wrote: personally, I pushed LeBron out of the top 5 after space jam 2 flopped

Fair

Buckeye-NBAFan · Post #171 » by **Buckeye-NBAFan** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:13 pm

M2J wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:It's crazy how much better Jokic would be perceived if he had played with another all-star like a Pippen or Wade or Klay Thompson or Kobe all his career, instead of never having an all-star teammate

But that's out of his control, unless he leaves Denver

It would just take away from his usage and stats. He still can't defend

This usage is significantly lower than SGA's, and SGA plays with another all-star

Tatum also has higher usage. Mitchell has higher usage. Brunson has higher usage

Why would a 41% 3PT shooting center suffer from someone giving him open 3 point looks?

SpurNani · Post #172 » by **SpurNani** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:26 pm

There is nothing he can do to be considered the Goat. He’s not the all around player.

Infinite Llamas · Post #173 » by **Infinite Llamas** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:34 pm

Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:
M2J wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:It's crazy how much better Jokic would be perceived if he had played with another all-star like a Pippen or Wade or Klay Thompson or Kobe all his career, instead of never having an all-star teammate

But that's out of his control, unless he leaves Denver

It would just take away from his usage and stats. He still can't defend

This usage is significantly lower than SGA's, and SGA plays with another all-star

Tatum also has higher usage. Mitchell has higher usage. Brunson has higher usage

Why would a 41% 3PT shooting center suffer from someone giving him open 3 point looks?

MPJ and Murray have a combined 43% usage.

Replace them with a star and Jokic wouldn’t have to change a thing.

Cam freaking Thomas has a higher USG than Jokic…

What sacrifices would he have to make? Lol. Some people have such a poor comprehension of numbers.

Packbuckman · Post #174 » by **Packbuckman** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:44 pm

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Chokic wrote:Ppl dont think LeBron will ever surpass Jordan yet think Jokic has a slim chance? The jokic glaze here is wild. He will finish his career outside the top 10 between 13-15.

If he wins another championship i think he is knocking on the door of the top 10 for sure. Goat? No not at all, but top 10? Yes for sure. His peak these last few years would rival anyones.

Those players in the goat conversation were great on defense too
MJ
Wilt
Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Oscar
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Dream
Shaq
Curry
I got Oscar a lot higher than most people he was great on both sides of the ball jokic is great on offense but is the worst defender of any of the top centers they would score at will on him. And his offensive peak would rival those top players but not overall when you factor in defense. Now if he was a guard it wouldn’t be as big as a deal but he is a center he is lucky there isn’t a Wilt Dream Shaq or Kareem playing today

M2J · Post #175 » by **M2J** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 9:11 pm

Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:
M2J wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:It's crazy how much better Jokic would be perceived if he had played with another all-star like a Pippen or Wade or Klay Thompson or Kobe all his career, instead of never having an all-star teammate

But that's out of his control, unless he leaves Denver

It would just take away from his usage and stats. He still can't defend

This usage is significantly lower than SGA's, and SGA plays with another all-star

Tatum also has higher usage. Mitchell has higher usage. Brunson has higher usage

Why would a 41% 3PT shooting center suffer from someone giving him open 3 point looks?

I don't care about other players usage. He can defend, and pairing him with a Tatum for instance and removing MPj and Murray doesn't mean a reign of rings. Just probably lower ppg and assists for Jokic, and maybe 0 rings.

Infinite Llamas · Post #176 » by **Infinite Llamas** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 11:04 pm

M2J wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:
M2J wrote:
It would just take away from his usage and stats. He still can't defend

This usage is significantly lower than SGA's, and SGA plays with another all-star

Tatum also has higher usage. Mitchell has higher usage. Brunson has higher usage

Why would a 41% 3PT shooting center suffer from someone giving him open 3 point looks?

I don't care about other players usage. He can defend, and pairing him with a Tatum for instance and removing MPj and Murray doesn't mean a reign of rings. Just probably lower ppg and assists for Jokic, and maybe 0 rings.

As someone who watches every game for Tatum and Jokic, those two guys are the focus of the defense. Things would get really interesting if defenses had to start and pick and choose. Just like pairing Jokic with someone like Curry…or Brunson…

Teams would have a hard time selling out on Jokic with another premiere player that would have to account for.

I don’t think it would change his stats much at all. Maybe Victor would take away from his rebounds, but Jokic controls the ball so little. He’s constantly making quick reads and rarely pounds the rock.

Buckeye-NBAFan · Post #177 » by **Buckeye-NBAFan** » Sun Mar 16, 2025 11:18 pm

M2J wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:
M2J wrote:
It would just take away from his usage and stats. He still can't defend

This usage is significantly lower than SGA's, and SGA plays with another all-star

Tatum also has higher usage. Mitchell has higher usage. Brunson has higher usage

Why would a 41% 3PT shooting center suffer from someone giving him open 3 point looks?

I don't care about other players usage. He can defend, and pairing him with a Tatum for instance and removing MPj and Murray doesn't mean a reign of rings. Just probably lower ppg and assists for Jokic, and maybe 0 rings.

Well Tatum specifically to replace Murray and Porter, and he would have 2, maybe 3 rings, instead of 1, at the age of 29, puts his equal to Jordan at the same age

MavsDirk41 · Post #178 » by **MavsDirk41** » Mon Mar 17, 2025 12:40 am

Packbuckman wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
Chokic wrote:Ppl dont think LeBron will ever surpass Jordan yet think Jokic has a slim chance? The jokic glaze here is wild. He will finish his career outside the top 10 between 13-15.

If he wins another championship i think he is knocking on the door of the top 10 for sure. Goat? No not at all, but top 10? Yes for sure. His peak these last few years would rival anyones.

Those players in the goat conversation were great on defense too
MJ
Wilt
Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Oscar
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Dream
Shaq
Curry
I got Oscar a lot higher than most people he was great on both sides of the ball jokic is great on offense but is the worst defender of any of the top centers they would score at will on him. And his offensive peak would rival those top players but not overall when you factor in defense. Now if he was a guard it wouldn’t be as big as a deal but he is a center he is lucky there isn’t a Wilt Dream Shaq or Kareem playing today

Only player your missing on that list is Kobe. But yea defensively he leaves a lot to be desired, similar to Curry. But i think becuase of his playmaking and overall basketball IQ he is one of the greatest floor raisers i have ever seen. His unique passing ability is like Bird. Without him on the court Denver doesnt sniff the playoffs. With him they have a shot at the finals. Offensively he really has few if any weaknesses. I would love to see him against Dream, Mourning, Ewing, or Shaq though like you said.

Packbuckman · Post #179 » by **Packbuckman** » Mon Mar 17, 2025 1:27 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Packbuckman wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

If he wins another championship i think he is knocking on the door of the top 10 for sure. Goat? No not at all, but top 10? Yes for sure. His peak these last few years would rival anyones.

Those players in the goat conversation were great on defense too
MJ
Wilt
Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Oscar
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Dream
Shaq
Curry
I got Oscar a lot higher than most people he was great on both sides of the ball jokic is great on offense but is the worst defender of any of the top centers they would score at will on him. And his offensive peak would rival those top players but not overall when you factor in defense. Now if he was a guard it wouldn’t be as big as a deal but he is a center he is lucky there isn’t a Wilt Dream Shaq or Kareem playing today

Only player your missing on that list is Kobe. But yea defensively he leaves a lot to be desired, similar to Curry. But i think becuase of his playmaking and overall basketball IQ he is one of the greatest floor raisers i have ever seen. His unique passing ability is like Bird. Without him on the court Denver doesnt sniff the playoffs. With him they have a shot at the finals. Offensively he really has few if any weaknesses. I would love to see him against Dream, Mourning, Ewing, or Shaq though like you said.

Dam ya forgot Kobe lol
He is before curry for me because of his defensive impact

M2J · Post #180 » by **M2J** » Mon Mar 17, 2025 1:50 am

Infinite Llamas wrote:
M2J wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:
This usage is significantly lower than SGA's, and SGA plays with another all-star

Tatum also has higher usage. Mitchell has higher usage. Brunson has higher usage

Why would a 41% 3PT shooting center suffer from someone giving him open 3 point looks?

I don't care about other players usage. He can defend, and pairing him with a Tatum for instance and removing MPj and Murray doesn't mean a reign of rings. Just probably lower ppg and assists for Jokic, and maybe 0 rings.

As someone who watches every game for Tatum and Jokic, those two guys are the focus of the defense. Things would get really interesting if defenses had to start and pick and choose. Just like pairing Jokic with someone like Curry…or Brunson…

Teams would have a hard time selling out on Jokic with another premiere player that would have to account for.

I don’t think it would change his stats much at all. Maybe Victor would take away from his rebounds, but Jokic controls the ball so little. He’s constantly making quick reads and rarely pounds the rock.

They have a hard time selling out on jokic now and MPj and Murray are better shooters than Tatum, and Murray is a point guard to boot