PG: Bucks Fall to Thunder

[CharityStripe34]

The Kuzma fan club who had been singing his praises through his first 5 games are getting quieter and quieter by the day. It turns out being good at basketball and being intelligent is a more important litmus test than being “athletic” and “available.” What a disaster.

I didn't see last night's game, but while I appreciate the effort and hustle he's brought defensively, he's definitely a limited offensive player. If he's coming off the bench as your 7th guy he's awesome. If he's asked to be a 3rd or 4th option, eh.

Just a massive shame that Khris' body betrayed him when he's the exact type of player we need to make things easier for the stars.

Kyle Kuzma has always been overrated, why this is a surprise to any of you is beyond me. The national media has to have product and like the national media; expectations that Kuzma is there to perform a #1/2 Bird or even Khris-like role are wildly off-base and all the wailing and gnashing of teeth here is just the byproduct of buying what prepackaged unhinged expectations the national media is selling. Making things 'easier for the stars' strikes me as losing recipe; the stars are fully capable of involving the entire roster so as to make it easier on themselves, and secondarily, win more games. Khris is not on the team. Kuzma was not acquired to be Khris. The best player to make Giannis and Dame more effective isn't anyone trying to play the Khris role.

Um, I never expected Kuzma to pretend to be Khris. He's a very limited offensive player. I had very little expectations for the trade.

[BigO]

Thoughts before the game and confirmed by the game:

1) Kuzma isn't good. He's never been good.

Kyle Kuzma's always been overrated; buying into what the national media is selling only dooms fans eager to accept those narratives to certain disappointment. The idea that Kuzma was being asked to or could ever serve a Bird/Kobe or even /Khris-like role are the root & direct cause of the anger here; expectations not very well-grounded in what we had or what we need are the issue. Thinking how Bobby's overlooked lightning-rod role reduces the degree Giannis ends up bearing the brunt of opponent's defensive effort, either as target as the only focal point; meaning that the PJ Tuckers, Rodmans, Kuzmas provide something else that's not optional on authentically championship rosters. Giannis and Dame to their credit have been notching assists and rebounds but they do not provide that stuff nor the play the Thunder showed.

2) Having said that, it's just wishful thinking that the problem is the coach or any individual player. You can't even name the Bucks third best player because he doesn't exist. OKC's roster is just tons better.

Thunder's style of play is head-&-shoulders better too, noteworthy that comparing Bucks' 2021 and current rosters leads to some interesting conclusions. If it looks better now then does that mean our core superstars aren't as good as they once were? Or that they leagues gotten so much better?

KPJ and before you object even his handles are wildly better than Khris's, everybody knows it.

This team is much worse than the 2021 team, for one reason. Khris Middleton. He carried the team when Giannis was hurt. He was a winner.

KPJ has definite skills, but he's never been a winning player. Khris is an all star, Olympian and NBA champion in which he was the second best player on the team.

With a healthy Khris Middleton, this team is championship material. It's nobody's fault he's hurt, but without him this team is merely a top 10 team. Maybe slightly better during the playoffs when Giannis plays more minutes.

[BUCKnation]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=ddAiiE29NVvKq9tn5tKPIQ

Pretty telling.

While we definitely do play better when the ball is moving this just shows that players are thinking too much on that end of the floor. I'll give Doc credit for putting together a more than respectable defense given the parts, but the offense is just unreliable and too poor, also given the parts.

[paulpressey25]

With the three point shot ruling the game, the NBA is far more about matchups. And the bottom line is that we have exactly one player who generally can dominate regardless of matchup. Giannis.

Then you come to Dame, who generally can score a lot but can’t play defense and we’re now learning has issues handling the ball under pressure.

And after him you’ve got a lot of underwhelming guys, who are capable of looking good depending on the matchup. I understand the Kuzma hate (after he had a pretty good first month with the team). But he’s not any different than Brook, Bobby, Prince, GTJ, Green, etc. If he was, he’d have been dealt for multiple first rounders like the Knicks paid for Bridges.

[nagawicka]

Doc, Horst and Giannis all deserve blame for what this team has turned into on and off the court. If the organisation is serious we have to have a new coach and GM in place for next season.

Trading Khris Middleton is whatever but targeting and trading for Kyle Kuzma when your franchise is in championship or bust mode makes it honestly one of the worst trades of all time. I still can't believe our idiot GM did it.

Totally agree re Doc, Horst and Giannis.

Are we in championship or bust mode though. Seems like finding the missing chunks--missing both Tucker/Kuz *and* Khris roles--AND THEN playing hard to see how we stack up is the sequence, as it is every season. 'But Khris' is not a recipe for a championship run. Some folks may be heavily invested in getting Big Mad, okay then. Okay for them. That's due to expectations not justified by reality. Actively confusing Kuzma with Khris for the payoff, because getting Big Mad is so satisfying, eh

doesn't really get us anywhere

[Bernman]

I think the overall critiques should be paused if Kuz had an illness he tried to play thru. There are definitely issues there prior, but they should have been brought up then, and they were. I think it'd be more about having a coming to Jesus moment he's 4th offensive option at best in a lineup w/ 3 franchise all-time leading scorers. And 3rd w/ the backups behind KPJ & Trent.

I think a silver lining, and there were few, was that Green seems back defensively the last couple of games. Staying in front of guys to force tougher shots, even SGA in the handful of match-ups. And he came around to have a nice, low usage offensive night. Too early to say that's returned.

[neiLz]

gg ez.

[neiLz]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=ddAiiE29NVvKq9tn5tKPIQ

Pretty telling.

like 75% of bucks offense doesn't look fluid or free. they look like robots learning to run an offense at times. They try to hard to run dumb as plays (see spamming brook in the post where they CANNOT get an entry pass in... they just sit and wait 10 seconds til he can get position then pass it. no second options).
Dame looks timid like he's trying to run the play called and then the shot clock runs out and they get flustered. Dame gets double at half court and usually the only dude he can pass to is big ass brook cuz NOONE else comes back to him to get the rock.

These issues are clear in crunch time because they look lost, commit bad turnovers, take bad shots. At least with bud's system they had an identity. Grief - he just let them get out and play and score, werent they one of the best clutch teams last year playing this way?

This year they just look lost and timid. they don't seem at all connected on offense. it's weird to have 2 elite offensive guys but look so lost offensively.

[Ron Swanson]

The Bucks are 19th in pick & roll frequency despite being the 7th most efficient P&R team and having two of the most dominant P&R weapons (Dame/Giannis). 16th in 3PT attempts despite being #2 in 3PT efficiency. We're #2 in post-up frequency (only 0.2% behind Denver) despite being 17th in post-up efficiency. Team is straight up not leaning into their strengths and instead trying to force a square peg into a round-hole. Make it make **** sense man.

Story of the season and under Doc in general = Stone Age NBA offense. Once again, we're just getting bailed out by our Top-2 talents when they decide to free-lance and hard-carry the offense (7th in isolation frequency and efficiency). I'm begging them to get a real coach here, even if that means Doc moving into the POBO role (*gags*), whatever. Being able to construct a Top-10 offense at a minimum around Dame/Giannis should be a coaching competency litmus test, and the coaching staff has failed that test spectacularly.

[Dick Tate]

The Kuzma fan club who had been singing his praises through his first 5 games are getting quieter and quieter by the day. It turns out being good at basketball and being intelligent is a more important litmus test than being “athletic” and “available.” What a disaster.

I expected the poor perimeter shot selection but the ineptness at the rim has been surprising.

[German Athens]

The Bucks are 19th in pick & roll frequency despite being the 7th most efficient P&R team and having two of the most dominant P&R weapons (Dame/Giannis). 16th in 3PT attempts despite being #2 in 3PT efficiency. We're #2 in post-up frequency (only 0.2% behind Denver) despite being 17th in post-up efficiency. Team is straight up not leaning into their strengths and instead trying to force a square peg into a round-hole. Make it make **** sense man.

Story of the season and under Doc in general = Stone Age NBA offense. Once again, we're just getting bailed out by our Top-2 talents when they decide to free-lance and hard-carry the offense (7th in isolation frequency and efficiency). I'm begging them to get a real coach here, even if that means Doc moving into the POBO role (*gags*), whatever. Being able to construct a Top-10 offense at a minimum around Dame/Giannis should be a coaching competency litmus test, and the coaching staff has failed that test spectacularly.

I don’t disagree with the idea that we have a problematic offense - anytime we use half the shot clock just to get the ball to Taurean Prince in a hand off, we’ve got ourselves a problem.

But the pick n roll frequency is greatly intertwined with our lack of proper personnel for it. Dame is the only guy you can easily scale up usage as the ball handler in the pick n roll, and he’s actually quite high in frequency - 9th in the league. Giannis is then our next best bet as the handler, but his is harder to scale because he needs to get all the way into the teeth of the defense to utilize it.

Beyond those two guys, we basically don’t have the capacity to do it, and that’s not completely new to Doc. Under Bud, we were often very low in this as well, peaking in 2023 at 24th in the league.

As an organization, we’ve just never prioritized guys who can competently run a pick n roll.

[rilamann]

Doc needing a top 3 MVP Candidate and Damian Lillard to get the #6 seed (most likley) in an overall pretty meh east (Besides Clev/Bos) tells you everything you need to know.

[German Athens]

The other issue with our offense is that I think Giannis is just being much less aggressive this year. That seems, in part, intentional to keep him healthy.

He’s taking 4 fewer drives per game compared to last year, 15 vs 11.

[paulpressey25]

Honestly, I’d rather have Adrian Griffin back and the maligned Malik Beasley if our option is what we’re seeing now.

(yes, I know all the issues and salary cap, blah blah blah. Just making a statement that Doc and Horst have arguably moved the team backwards the past 12 months)

[rilamann]

Honestly, I’d rather have Adrian Griffin back and the maligned Malik Beasley if our option is what we’re seeing now.

The Bucks were 30-13 with Griffin.

The Bucks wouldn't go 30-13 with Doc if they played the Wizards 43 times.

[German Athens]

Honestly, I’d rather have Adrian Griffin back and the maligned Malik Beasley if our option is what we’re seeing now.

The Bucks were 30-13 with Griffin.

The Bucks wouldn't go 30-13 with Doc if they played the Wizards 43 times.

Certainly not with Khris Middleton playing.

This is where Khris haters and lovers can agree.

[DukeLecker]

The Kuzma fan club who had been singing his praises through his first 5 games are getting quieter and quieter by the day. It turns out being good at basketball and being intelligent is a more important litmus test than being “athletic” and “available.” What a disaster.

What a disaster for the tanking wizards. They’ve won 6 of 10 and have beaten some credible teams. My wiz need kuzma to be his terrible self to help with the tank cuz he’s such an awful player.

[Ron Swanson]

The Bucks are 19th in pick & roll frequency despite being the 7th most efficient P&R team and having two of the most dominant P&R weapons (Dame/Giannis). 16th in 3PT attempts despite being #2 in 3PT efficiency. We're #2 in post-up frequency (only 0.2% behind Denver) despite being 17th in post-up efficiency. Team is straight up not leaning into their strengths and instead trying to force a square peg into a round-hole. Make it make **** sense man.

Story of the season and under Doc in general = Stone Age NBA offense. Once again, we're just getting bailed out by our Top-2 talents when they decide to free-lance and hard-carry the offense (7th in isolation frequency and efficiency). I'm begging them to get a real coach here, even if that means Doc moving into the POBO role (*gags*), whatever. Being able to construct a Top-10 offense at a minimum around Dame/Giannis should be a coaching competency litmus test, and the coaching staff has failed that test spectacularly.

I don’t disagree with the idea that we have a problematic offense - anytime we use half the shot clock just to get the ball to Taurean Prince in a hand off, we’ve got ourselves a problem.

But the pick n roll frequency is greatly intertwined with our lack of proper personnel for it. Dame is the only guy you can easily scale up usage as the ball handler in the pick n roll, and he’s actually quite high in frequency - 9th in the league. Giannis is then our next best bet as the handler, but his is harder to scale because he needs to get all the way into the teeth of the defense to utilize it.

Beyond those two guys, we basically don’t have the capacity to do it, and that’s not completely new to Doc. Under Bud, we were often very low in this as well, peaking in 2023 at 24th in the league.

As an organization, we’ve just never prioritized guys who can competently run a pick n roll.

I'm just not buying this when you look at the personnel of the top P&R teams and offenses though. OKC doesn't have this awesome collection of ball-handling guards and creators outside of SGA. We've swapped out Delon Wright and Marjon for Kevin Porter and Jericho Sims. That along with Bobby's suspension should mean us embracing the pick & roll offense even more, and to KPJ's credit, he's an almost identical frequency and efficiency guy right now (39% and 91st percentile respectively) to Dame, albeit small sample.

I'm just praying that someone on the coaching staff realizes this and we get some Dame/KPJ backcourt reps before the playoffs start. Cuz the offensive philosophy right now is making generating good looks an absolute chore. And no, I don't think that Dame having less P&R usage than Jalen Green is acceptable either. Both his AND Giannis' P&R usage have gradually decreased while their ISO usage has increased (13.9 and 12.6 respectively last season vs. 17.6 and 15.5 this season). Like yeah, some credit to Doc for "saving" the defense from mush-brain Griff last season, but he's just going through the motions on offense. He doesn't have a plan other than "give the ball to our two best players and get out of the way".

[rilamann]

Honestly, I’d rather have Adrian Griffin back and the maligned Malik Beasley if our option is what we’re seeing now.

The Bucks were 30-13 with Griffin.

The Bucks wouldn't go 30-13 with Doc if they played the Wizards 43 times.

Certainly not with Khris Middleton playing.

This is where Khris haters and lovers can agree.

The Wiz have been playing decent since the deadline.

Is it because of Middleton or simply because they rid themselves of Kuzma? That is the question....lol.

[fan230]

With the three point shot ruling the game, the NBA is far more about matchups. And the bottom line is that we have exactly one player who generally can dominate regardless of matchup. Giannis.

Then you come to Dame, who generally can score a lot but can’t play defense and we’re now learning has issues handling the ball under pressure.

And after him you’ve got a lot of underwhelming guys, who are capable of looking good depending on the matchup. I understand the Kuzma hate (after he had a pretty good first month with the team). But he’s not any different than Brook, Bobby, Prince, GTJ, Green, etc. If he was, he’d have been dealt for multiple first rounders like the Knicks paid for Bridges.

I read this multiple times. A few things occurred to me. Why are we less good today than in a few years ago? Forget about aging for now.

Giannis is Giannis the great. Then and now.

Dame is worse than Jrue was in defense, much worse, and Dame is better but not that much better than Jrue was on offense. This disparity is a major point.

Khris is much worse than he was because of injuries. Khris of 2021 was hugely better than Kuzma is in 2025.

I think this is the crux of the story why we are underperforming compared to 2021.