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Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#241 » by tsherkin » Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:49 pm

Tripod wrote:But my point was more of....how many times a game do we say Barnes was fed for am easy basket? It's rare. Compare that to how many times he sets up others.


45% of his buckets inside the arc are assisted right now, and it was even higher than that over the previous two seasons. So while he isn't getting assisted at Deandre Jordan rates, he's not exactly crucified with no passing support.

So we'll have to see what happens next year. We have been speaking of getting him off-ball more, getting more passing support, much as we did with RJ. But as we do that, we'll lose some of his playmaking, so he'd better get a lot more efficient, or his O isn't going to change much overall.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#242 » by Clay Davis » Sun Mar 16, 2025 9:27 pm

PushDaRock wrote:
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The only thing he does at an above average level is the mid range jumper so they have been feeding him those, the unfortunate thing is it's not an efficient shot to be taking in the first place. There's only so much you can do with someone that doesn't do anything offensively at a high level that's efficient.

Ya. The reason why the midrange is efficient for someone like Kawhi or KD is because teams will fight really hard to get them away from receiving the ball in either the paint or beyond the arc. The utility of Scottie's midrange is more akin to Demar's than Kawhi's. Teams gave the midrange to Kawhi since they had no choice... it's either that or he converts at a high percentage in the paint or gives a higher expected number of points beyond the arc. With Demar they give him the midrange and are happy since, however good he is from there, they're not giving up a higher expected number of points as a good three-point shooter would deliver, nor is it a high enough percentage to feel akin to a shot in the paint. It is the rizz of the statisticals. The Measure Theory of rizz, if you will. I would recommend Scottie Barners to take graduate-level real analysis to understand the rizz of the Measure Theory that underlies modern probability theory.


lacking rizz in his game is the perfect way to put it

Thank you brother next time you see Scottie show him this post to bring the reality of rizz to him.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#243 » by Vampirate » Mon Mar 17, 2025 5:50 am

Man, that fist half of last season gave us all, including me quite a bit of hope, but after the trades Barnes was pretty much producing what he currently now is.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#244 » by mdenny » Mon Mar 17, 2025 5:54 am

Vampirate wrote:Man, that fist half of last season gave us all, including me quite a bit of hope, but after the trades Barnes was pretty much producing what he currently now is.


All thus Barnes criticism is missing all the upside that otherwise exists in his profile. He's always, in the least, gonna be a defensive anchor who has elite court vision and can be used as a matchup challenge to opposing coaches because of his utility.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#245 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 17, 2025 12:28 pm

mdenny wrote:All thus Barnes criticism is missing all the upside that otherwise exists in his profile.[/b]


No it doesn't. Barnes' D and playmaking are discussed constantly when the subject of his play comes up. The focus is on his scoring because the team has been trying to use him as a scorer. The focus has not been on the stuff we've all known he does well since before he was even drafted because it's a little obvious, and there's some concern relative to his contract size that what he'll contribute won't be enough to justify his salary/cap proportion. But those skills aren't being ignored at all.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#246 » by StopitLeo » Mon Mar 17, 2025 1:23 pm

Scottie has developed a well-rounded skill package where most improvement is going to come from being more efficient at this point (his 3pt shooting obviously needs significant improvement). He simply doesn't have the level of offensive skills where he should be your #1 scoring option, which is clearly evident from his isolation scoring (0.73 PPP this year with a career high of 0.86 in his rookie year). That is of course where Ingram comes in. BI isn't at the elite MVP level of isolation scoring with a >1.00 PPP but he was 0.96 and 0.94 PPP the past two seasons. I''m not suggesting that our offence should be isolation focused but just recognizing that being able to score in isolation is a good reflection of offensive skill and what you need in a true #1 scoring option. I think we will see the best of Scottie when he's playing next to Ingram.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#247 » by Raptors_Dynasty » Mon Mar 17, 2025 1:27 pm

I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#248 » by Tha Cynic » Mon Mar 17, 2025 3:43 pm

Tripod wrote:I want more of last game...him cutting to open areas and getting fed easier baskets.


They’re feeding him the ball and asking him to create. He had to get better here because this team needs him to be a top 2 scorer on the team so that he can become a better player and propel this team. I’m higher on him here than others on offense and yes I know - I see the stats and everything too.

You can see he’s still thinking through every move in his head and it isn’t natural yet. While it’s great to make him a play finisher to help with his efficiency, this season is about development and his first year trying to be the first option. He just needs to keep staying aggressive and working on it until it becomes more natural. He can become a better player from the midrange and in, and getting to the free throw line. Just keep emphasizing it and forget about all the whining around here about how bad he looks. We’re not winning a championship this year.

We don’t have to stop having him work on this because people want to tank and also have Barnes be more efficient in the same season. He definitely spends all his energy on defense but we need to force him to get better on offense as it will make him and the team better. Bitch and moan if he’s losing us games next season when we’re trying to win.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#249 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 17, 2025 3:49 pm

From the Lawson thread, which we were mercilessly derailing...

Boogie! wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
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I’m not sure how you’re calling someone a career shooter based on the first 2 seasons of him barely shooting any 3s… last year was the first full season he shot 3s on significant volume as part of his offensive repertoire and shot 34%. This year he increased his volume and has shot worse. He’s regressed after showing improvement last year.


I think the point is more that he had his customary month or two of shooting the 3 decently, and then an abbreviated season, which inflated his seasonal 3P%. I don't think he got worse, he just didn't capture lightning in a bottle again.

In the most rudimentary sense, sure, 28 < 34, but like, he's still the same shooter and it's a regression to a firmly-established mean of poor shooting which has defined him as a player since before the NBA. The outlier season in year 3 isn't what defines him, particularly given the injuries and the specific breakdown of his shooting that year, and his general pattern.


I mean if we want to argue technicalities, and I agree with the notion that he hasn’t “regressed” then let’s get pack to the original sentiment of the argument in that apparently the coaching staff unlocked all of these players shooting abilities. In the case of Barnes he still hasn’t gotten better and that is still concerning and part of my issue with him right now. He hasn’t gotten better at all.


Yes, I think it's clear that the coaching staff isn't a series of wizards who can make everyone better. Barnes has been a very explicit example of that. And, I guess, Poeltl, heh. But yes, Scottie hasn't actually improved as a 3pt shooter; he didn't last year, despite the final percentage, it was just an over-represented sample that he often kicks out during the year. He just missed 22 games, which magnified the impact of those games.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#250 » by Los_29 » Mon Mar 17, 2025 3:50 pm

Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong


I actually think he had an extremely high ceiling. Great size, very strong, good athlete, high BB IQ, great passer and great rebounder. If he learned how to shoot he’s a top 15 player.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#251 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 17, 2025 3:52 pm

Los_29 wrote:
Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong


I actually think he had an extremely high ceiling. Great size, very strong, good athlete, high BB IQ, great passer and great rebounder. If he learned how to shoot he’s a top 15 player.


Learning how to shoot isn't something you see a ton once guys hit the NBA, unless it means they are C+S in the corner. Developing isolation skills is one of those things which doesn't you go well when you start very late, and Barnes was always projected as a weak scorer, with bleh handles and no real range or off-dribble proficiency. He was vaunted for his D, rebounding and passing more than anything, and we have been trying to shoehorn him into something he has never been.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#252 » by Los_29 » Mon Mar 17, 2025 4:26 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Los_29 wrote:
Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong


I actually think he had an extremely high ceiling. Great size, very strong, good athlete, high BB IQ, great passer and great rebounder. If he learned how to shoot he’s a top 15 player.


Learning how to shoot isn't something you see a ton once guys hit the NBA, unless it means they are C+S in the corner. Developing isolation skills is one of those things which doesn't you go well when you start very late, and Barnes was always projected as a weak scorer, with bleh handles and no real range or off-dribble proficiency. He was vaunted for his D, rebounding and passing more than anything, and we have been trying to shoehorn him into something he has never been.


Maybe we just got spoiled with seeing Kyle, Pascal, OG and Norm learn how to shoot. Kawhi is another guy that was labeled as a poor shooter in college and developed into a very good shooter.

It wasn’t crazy to think a 20 year old Scottie could develop into a passable shooter.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#253 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 17, 2025 4:45 pm

Los_29 wrote:Maybe we just got spoiled with seeing Kyle, Pascal, OG and Norm learn how to shoot. Kawhi is another guy that was labeled as a poor shooter in college and developed into a very good shooter.


Kyle had shooting ability as a foundation, though. Siakam was showing his perimeter two as a rookie, and made visible strides year to year. He was a good example of it happening. Scottie hasn't shown anything like that. Kawhi was nearly a 38% 3pt shooter as a ROOKIE, and by his second season was a much better shooter from basically everywhere than Scottie has ever been, and was a better shooter in college, too (albeit not from 3). The rookie year, there are so many adjustments to make as a guy adapts to the NBA, you can't really judge a player's shooting too well. Remember KD's rookie season from 3? But the year after? The third year? The fourth? You generally have a pretty clear idea of if they have potential. Lowry's 3 wasn't quite there yet, but he showed immediate improvement basically everywhere else come his second season, if inconsistent. And by his 4th year, he was showing it from 3. And remember, he had less opportunity on an NBA court to that point than Scottie. Less freedom, less minutes, all of it. Different developmental cycle and arc. And given the proportions he was using certain ranges in and his total volume, we're talking about some pretty volatile samples over his first couple seasons. And he was still a 37%+ 3pt shooter for two consecutive seasons before ever becoming a Raptor.

OG isn't a particularly good shooter from anywhere except the corners, where even Bruce Bowen figured out how to smash.

It wasn’t crazy to think a 20 year old Scottie could develop into a passable shooter.


Kind of was. He'd need to turn into an ELITE shooter in order to overcome the other deficiencies he has, and that was never really on the table. Like, we can see him hitting his short middie reasonably well so far and he's far better at the line in the NBA than he was in college. But he isn't any better from the corners than when he started and he isn't any better on the ATB 3pt shooting which is holding him back so much.

There were some things you could reasonably project out of Barnes as a rookie specifically, but inside the context of a focal scorer, the nature of those shots is very different from the way guys usually develop. Even Kawhi, who is now a much better overall shooter, started out more as a C+S movement shooter inside San Antonio's offense. And then yeah, as the seasons have stacked, Barnes has shown almost nothing to us as far as actual development.

But again, you focused narrowly on only one part of what I said. Such development does happen sometimes. It's usually not on-ball, though; it's typically C+S shoot stuff. And then when you consider role, the total development becomes much harder, because off-dribble shooting is far more difficult than set C+S action created by someone else. And so now, if you're looking at him in context, it's taken him four years to go nowhere, so the projected arc of his development is, at best, remarkably slow.

There is no sense waiting and praying for him to develop into that role at this time.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#254 » by Tripod » Mon Mar 17, 2025 5:01 pm

Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong

No one knows.

No one expected his ROTY
No one expected the All Star bid coming off the year he had

If we jump up the standings next year, guys will get more consideration. Who knows, maybe it's BI, Yak, IQ or RJ instead. All is good for the team.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#255 » by ArthurVandelay » Mon Mar 17, 2025 5:44 pm

Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong


It will depend on team success

If Raptors are winning, Scottie will be an all-star again
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#256 » by Boogie! » Mon Mar 17, 2025 5:57 pm

Tripod wrote:
Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong

No one knows.

No one expected his ROTY
No one expected the All Star bid coming off the year he had

If we jump up the standings next year, guys will get more consideration. Who knows, maybe it's BI, Yak, IQ or RJ instead. All is good for the team.


Your argument now goes back to no one knows?

Such a cop out. In that case there’s no need for scouting, there’s no need for projections. This is the issue with your stance… you get upset when people make bold proclamations against players, but then when those proclamations are right and go against your opinion, its easy for you to just say well no one knows or could know, you just made a lucky guess…

Just because you don’t have foresight, doesn’t mean other people can’t.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#257 » by TeamDisgruntled » Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:17 pm

I make this post by first stating I have read none of this thread. I do genuinely believe Scottie Barnes is getting better. Is he a better shooter? No he’s not. However I do believe his court awareness both offensively and defensively has taken a leap. His handle has improved gradually each year, though not yet amazing, it’s always improving. Lastly, I think it’s undeniable that his overall defence has taken a huge leap this year, especially his man to man. So while the shooting hasn’t been great, Scottie is no doubt better. Sometimes these jumps aren’t linear so let’s just hope next season is the one where the shooting finally clicks, or at the very least improves.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#258 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:22 pm

Tripod wrote:
Raptors_Dynasty wrote:I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong

No one knows.

No one expected his ROTY
No one expected the All Star bid coming off the year he had

If we jump up the standings next year, guys will get more consideration. Who knows, maybe it's BI, Yak, IQ or RJ instead. All is good for the team.


It's hard to tell with Scottie. We are really going to need next season (lmfao, I know) to get a better bead on what he can be. What he looks like with a different usage distribution, with a better lead offensive player in front of him, better spacing and all that is going to be big. Does he learn how to move effectively without the ball and find those more-efficient scoring opportunities? Does he look the same, but on lower volume? Does he maintain his playmaking relevance?

Defense and wing / small-PF rebounding won't get him back to the ASG. There are a bunch of questions to answer, so I agree that it isn't a "he's never going to make it back there" kind of situation, at least not with certainty. And then yeah, if he's posting numbers and we're winning more, he might make it in even if he shouldn't, you know? Or, we might get lucky and he might actually deserve another selection.

Very hard to tell at this juncture.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#259 » by pingpongrac » Mon Mar 17, 2025 7:11 pm

The more we see of Scottie in a lead role, the more it seems he is going to cap out as an elite role player/3rd option type of guy unless he drastically improves his jump shooting ability. When some people see "role player," they're quick to assume that's a bench player or someone that isn't going to produce very much – but I see Scottie as a guy that will give you 15-18 points, 6-8 rebounds, 5-7 assists and elite defence most nights. We haven't seen a whole lot of growth in his one-on-one offence in his first four seasons which makes it unlikely that he'll ever become an efficient 20+ PPG scorer like we had hoped for, but he's still a guy that could be your 2nd or 3rd best player on a Championship team because he does so many other things at a high level. I'm fine with his contract even if he stays mostly the same as he is now (18/8/6 type of guy that impacts the game a lot on the defensive end) with incremental improvements, but that's with the caveat that he can also improve his efficiency to somewhat league average with less of a scoring burden after the addition of Ingram.

All of that being said, there is still the possibility that he takes a leap. I think some people (myself included) got a bit ahead of themselves after his first season when he produced at a high level as the 4th/5th option, but it's not easy to scale up ones production without sacrificing efficiency (or defence, but that hasn't been an issue at all with Scottie), especially without much support around him. At 23, he's still young and he was always projected to be an offensive project though. Let's see how he looks behind Ingram while sharing 2nd/3rd option responsibilities with RJ/IQ next season.
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Re: Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better? 

Post#260 » by Tha Cynic » Mon Mar 17, 2025 7:28 pm

His form is all over the place. We need someone to fix it and I don’t think that’s his buddy trainer lol. Can we please get rid of this guy?

His dribbling has looked a lot tighter recently and you can see a clear improvement there from last season, so that’s a positive, but it feels like his form is all over the place on his jumpers.

Jaren Jackson Jr is also someone who took an efficiency hit last year while trying to expand his game with Morant out (yes, yes he hit nearly 40% from three for a couple of seasons), but there’s hope that fixing Barnes’ form and getting used to trying more ways to score will help him next season. I am just not sure if he’s working with the right guy. I’m curious how much he works with Raptors people vs his own.
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