Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[ConSarnit]

I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong

No one knows.

No one expected his ROTY
No one expected the All Star bid coming off the year he had

If we jump up the standings next year, guys will get more consideration. Who knows, maybe it's BI, Yak, IQ or RJ instead. All is good for the team.

It's hard to tell with Scottie. We are really going to need next season (lmfao, I know) to get a better bead on what he can be. What he looks like with a different usage distribution, with a better lead offensive player in front of him, better spacing and all that is going to be big. Does he learn how to move effectively without the ball and find those more-efficient scoring opportunities? Does he look the same, but on lower volume? Does he maintain his playmaking relevance?

Defense and wing / small-PF rebounding won't get him back to the ASG. There are a bunch of questions to answer, so I agree that it isn't a "he's never going to make it back there" kind of situation, at least not with certainty. And then yeah, if he's posting numbers and we're winning more, he might make it in even if he shouldn't, you know? Or, we might get lucky and he might actually deserve another selection.

Very hard to tell at this juncture.

Theory I have: I honestly think he has to be able to improve his shooting in the near term for us to get good value out of Barnes and his contract. It seems like it takes a while for most players to be able to develop a post game or to transition into the type of player who screens at any meaningful volume, etc. How many times have we heard about players finding a post game in their late 20’s? Barnes is still far off from that. And then there is the question as to whether he can transition to that type of player at all? I’d say that’s tbd at this point.

He has probably shown less in the areas that we are hoping he transitions to than he has shown as far as shooting. He’s had a solid year from midrange. He’s had months where his 3 looks good. I think those “hustle/banger” traits will take longer to ingrain than finding more consistency in his shooting. I would be more surprised if Barnes efficiency improvement came from hustle/banger type play than him just finding more consistency with his shooting, at least over the next year or two.

[tsherkin]

Theory I have: I honestly think he has to be able to improve his shooting in the near term for us to get good value out of Barnes and his contract. It seems like it takes a while for most players to be able to develop a post game or to transition into the type of player who screens at any meaningful volume, etc. How many times have we heard about players finding a post game in their late 20’s? Barnes is still far off from that. And then there is the question as to whether he can transition to that type of player at all? I’d say that’s tbd at this point.

Honestly, we don't really need him to develop too much of a post game. We need him to learn how to screen, work on leveraging cuts, run hard in transition, that sort of stuff. His 3 isn't likely to come. If it does, great, but I have very little faith in that, particularly with how weak he is from the corner. But even then, if we eliminate ATB 3s, he's a career 34.6% shooter from the corners, and is in the middle of his 3rd season in 4 shooting over 35% there. Which is bad, like 8, 9% worse than league average from the corner, but better than his current shooting.

I would be more surprised if Barnes efficiency improvement came from hustle/banger type play than him just finding more consistency with his shooting, at least over the next year or two.

We immediately have less need of him on-ball as soon as Ingram steps on the court. And depending on who our rook is, that might eat into things as well. Same same, the more frequently we find Quickley in health. So one wonders where all this non-hustle/banger possessions might come from for Barnes, who is too bad to really justify force-feeding after this season ends.

[36Mafia]

11th most expensive contract in the league. yikes

[Tripod]

I don't think he’s making an all star team ever again in his career

He’s a great example of a high floor, low ceiling prospect

I hope I’m wrong

No one knows.

No one expected his ROTY
No one expected the All Star bid coming off the year he had

If we jump up the standings next year, guys will get more consideration. Who knows, maybe it's BI, Yak, IQ or RJ instead. All is good for the team.

Your argument now goes back to no one knows?

Such a cop out. In that case there’s no need for scouting, there’s no need for projections. This is the issue with your stance… you get upset when people make bold proclamations against players, but then when those proclamations are right and go against your opinion, its easy for you to just say well no one knows or could know, you just made a lucky guess…

Just because you don’t have foresight, doesn’t mean other people can’t.

What are you talking about?

Barnes was viewed as a guy who was further away from reaching his peak vs others....a long term project. He was never expected to be in the ROTY race.

And again, after a poor 2nd year. Who expected him to be an All Star last year?

But since you are a scouting genius that no one else can compare to, you MUST have predicted those things to happen, right? Oh wait, you didn't either. Hell, for awhile I have been saying I see him as our future Lowry....3rd scoring guy but 2nd most important. But you continue to ignore that.

So again, wtf are you talking about?

[PushDaRock]

No one knows.

No one expected his ROTY
No one expected the All Star bid coming off the year he had

If we jump up the standings next year, guys will get more consideration. Who knows, maybe it's BI, Yak, IQ or RJ instead. All is good for the team.

Your argument now goes back to no one knows?

Such a cop out. In that case there’s no need for scouting, there’s no need for projections. This is the issue with your stance… you get upset when people make bold proclamations against players, but then when those proclamations are right and go against your opinion, its easy for you to just say well no one knows or could know, you just made a lucky guess…

Just because you don’t have foresight, doesn’t mean other people can’t.

What are you talking about?

Barnes was viewed as a guy who was further away from reaching his peak vs others....a long term project. He was never expected to be in the ROTY race.

And again, after a poor 2nd year. Who expected him to be an All Star last year?

But since you are a scouting genius that no one else can compare to, you MUST have predicted those things to happen, right? Oh wait, you didn't either. Hell, for awhile I have been saying I see him as our future Lowry....3rd scoring guy but 2nd most important. But you continue to ignore that.

So again, wtf are you talking about?

I don't know that I would consider him a real All-Star last year. He was a replacement but he was putting up 20/8/6 on a losing team, that's really not even All-Star caliber realistically. RJ this season was around 22/7/6 and nobody is saying he had an All-Star caliber season.

He's had a weird career arc. He was supposed to be raw but was a lot more ready to produce than anticipated. But, his ceiling is also looking lower than we hoped for. I don't think we can just assume he will improve, some guys end up peaking really early. There's probably more signs than not that he is getting close to where we expect him to be at his peak. The guys you see with more steep development curves typically have had less opportunity and experience. Scottie has played heavy starter minutes since day 1. An example of someone peaking early would be Tyreke Evans who won ROY himself but stayed the same player basically outside of 1 or 2 outlier seasons.

[Tripod]

Your argument now goes back to no one knows?

Such a cop out. In that case there’s no need for scouting, there’s no need for projections. This is the issue with your stance… you get upset when people make bold proclamations against players, but then when those proclamations are right and go against your opinion, its easy for you to just say well no one knows or could know, you just made a lucky guess…

Just because you don’t have foresight, doesn’t mean other people can’t.

What are you talking about?

Barnes was viewed as a guy who was further away from reaching his peak vs others....a long term project. He was never expected to be in the ROTY race.

And again, after a poor 2nd year. Who expected him to be an All Star last year?

But since you are a scouting genius that no one else can compare to, you MUST have predicted those things to happen, right? Oh wait, you didn't either. Hell, for awhile I have been saying I see him as our future Lowry....3rd scoring guy but 2nd most important. But you continue to ignore that.

So again, wtf are you talking about?

I don't know that I would consider him a real All-Star last year. He was a replacement but he was putting up 20/8/6 on a losing team, that's really not even All-Star caliber realistically. RJ this season was around 22/7/6 and nobody is saying he had an All-Star caliber season.

He's had a weird career arc. He was supposed to be raw but was a lot more ready to produce than anticipated. But, his ceiling is also looking lower than we hoped for. I don't think we can just assume he will improve, some guys end up peaking really early. There's probably more signs than not that he is getting close to where we expect him to be at his peak. The guys you see with more steep development curves typically have had less opportunity and experience. Scottie has played heavy starter minutes since day 1. An example of someone peaking early would be Tyreke Evans who won ROY himself but stayed the same player basically outside of 1 or 2 outlier seasons.

We can't go taking away All Star selection even as a replacement. Of course it's different than of a starter.

And again, I have said numerous times what I see him as. He isn't a natural scorer, never was. He thinks pass 1st and gets just as much joy from an assist or a block. Deep down that's who he is. And since you mention RJ...he is the opposite. He is a natural scorer and gets his joy from that. But we have still been trying to develop the other parts of his game too....as we should in a development year.

Next year it's about wins. I personally don't care who gets what stats if they are winning lots. I have repeatedly said there is likely cannibalizing of stats among guys since there is only 1 ball. Who cares if they are winning.

But Boogie for some reason ignores all this and only believes I am a Barnes fan who thinks he will be a superstar. He creates fake takes then rails against them all while being a narcissistic and yelling everyone how great a scout he is. But again, did he see Barnes being a ROTY and All Star in year 3? No. Hmm...odd.

Anyways, back to Barnes, I don't see a jump coming, but I didn't see his ROTY or All Star coming. Or Jak hitting a 3. Or Jak taking a 12% jump in FT%. Hell who had Jak as a better FT shooter than RJ this year? Who had Ochai shooting 39.9% from 3 this year vs 21.7% last year as a Rap. Etc...

I just don't like to talk in absolutes. I and everyone can have an opinion and can be based on facts or gut feeling. But anyone saying they KNOW for sure, it's BS. Top scouts/execs don't bat 100%. Of course no one here will. Personally, I hope they all get better even if it’s small steps as it helps the team as a whole. But it's more likely some have good years, others don't. But most of the roster is so young. They have lots of growing to do.

[Tripod]

11th most expensive contract in the league. yikes

He has the 36th highest cap hit next year

[brownbobcat]

We can't go taking away All Star selection even as a replacement. Of course it's different than of a starter.

And again, I have said numerous times what I see him as. He isn't a natural scorer, never was. He thinks pass 1st and gets just as much joy from an assist or a block. Deep down that's who he is. And since you mention RJ...he is the opposite. He is a natural scorer and gets his joy from that. But we have still been trying to develop the other parts of his game too....as we should in a development year.

If he wants to function more like a PG, he needs to put himself in much better positions to pass. It's not just about finding cutters in transition or cutesy look-offs. He can't just find guys that are open, he needs to make them open. That's not going to happen with dribble penetration and probably not as PnR handler, he needs to go the Sabonis path and learn some footwork and screen-setting.

[Raps in 4]

Theory I have: I honestly think he has to be able to improve his shooting in the near term for us to get good value out of Barnes and his contract. It seems like it takes a while for most players to be able to develop a post game or to transition into the type of player who screens at any meaningful volume, etc. How many times have we heard about players finding a post game in their late 20’s? Barnes is still far off from that. And then there is the question as to whether he can transition to that type of player at all? I’d say that’s tbd at this point.

Honestly, we don't really need him to develop too much of a post game. We need him to learn how to screen, work on leveraging cuts, run hard in transition, that sort of stuff. His 3 isn't likely to come. If it does, great, but I have very little faith in that, particularly with how weak he is from the corner. But even then, if we eliminate ATB 3s, he's a career 34.6% shooter from the corners, and is in the middle of his 3rd season in 4 shooting over 35% there. Which is bad, like 8, 9% worse than league average from the corner, but better than his current shooting.

I would be more surprised if Barnes efficiency improvement came from hustle/banger type play than him just finding more consistency with his shooting, at least over the next year or two.

We immediately have less need of him on-ball as soon as Ingram steps on the court. And depending on who our rook is, that might eat into things as well. Same same, the more frequently we find Quickley in health. So one wonders where all this non-hustle/banger possessions might come from for Barnes, who is too bad to really justify force-feeding after this season ends.

If he doesn't develop a post game OR a 3-point shot, he will never live up to his contract. We need one or the other (or both). He can't just live in the mid-range and be a productive offensive player.

[tsherkin]

Theory I have: I honestly think he has to be able to improve his shooting in the near term for us to get good value out of Barnes and his contract. It seems like it takes a while for most players to be able to develop a post game or to transition into the type of player who screens at any meaningful volume, etc. How many times have we heard about players finding a post game in their late 20’s? Barnes is still far off from that. And then there is the question as to whether he can transition to that type of player at all? I’d say that’s tbd at this point.

Honestly, we don't really need him to develop too much of a post game. We need him to learn how to screen, work on leveraging cuts, run hard in transition, that sort of stuff. His 3 isn't likely to come. If it does, great, but I have very little faith in that, particularly with how weak he is from the corner. But even then, if we eliminate ATB 3s, he's a career 34.6% shooter from the corners, and is in the middle of his 3rd season in 4 shooting over 35% there. Which is bad, like 8, 9% worse than league average from the corner, but better than his current shooting.

I would be more surprised if Barnes efficiency improvement came from hustle/banger type play than him just finding more consistency with his shooting, at least over the next year or two.

We immediately have less need of him on-ball as soon as Ingram steps on the court. And depending on who our rook is, that might eat into things as well. Same same, the more frequently we find Quickley in health. So one wonders where all this non-hustle/banger possessions might come from for Barnes, who is too bad to really justify force-feeding after this season ends.

If he doesn't develop a post game OR a 3-point shot, he will never live up to his contract. We need one or the other (or both). He can't just live in the mid-range and be a productive offensive player.

That isnt an absolute truth, no.

[Raps in 4]

Honestly, we don't really need him to develop too much of a post game. We need him to learn how to screen, work on leveraging cuts, run hard in transition, that sort of stuff. His 3 isn't likely to come. If it does, great, but I have very little faith in that, particularly with how weak he is from the corner. But even then, if we eliminate ATB 3s, he's a career 34.6% shooter from the corners, and is in the middle of his 3rd season in 4 shooting over 35% there. Which is bad, like 8, 9% worse than league average from the corner, but better than his current shooting.



We immediately have less need of him on-ball as soon as Ingram steps on the court. And depending on who our rook is, that might eat into things as well. Same same, the more frequently we find Quickley in health. So one wonders where all this non-hustle/banger possessions might come from for Barnes, who is too bad to really justify force-feeding after this season ends.

If he doesn't develop a post game OR a 3-point shot, he will never live up to his contract. We need one or the other (or both). He can't just live in the mid-range and be a productive offensive player.

That isnt an absolute truth, no.

What path to becoming a productive offensive player do you see for Scottie if he doesn't develop a shot or an inside game?

[PushDaRock]

What are you talking about?

Barnes was viewed as a guy who was further away from reaching his peak vs others....a long term project. He was never expected to be in the ROTY race.

And again, after a poor 2nd year. Who expected him to be an All Star last year?

But since you are a scouting genius that no one else can compare to, you MUST have predicted those things to happen, right? Oh wait, you didn't either. Hell, for awhile I have been saying I see him as our future Lowry....3rd scoring guy but 2nd most important. But you continue to ignore that.

So again, wtf are you talking about?

I don't know that I would consider him a real All-Star last year. He was a replacement but he was putting up 20/8/6 on a losing team, that's really not even All-Star caliber realistically. RJ this season was around 22/7/6 and nobody is saying he had an All-Star caliber season.

He's had a weird career arc. He was supposed to be raw but was a lot more ready to produce than anticipated. But, his ceiling is also looking lower than we hoped for. I don't think we can just assume he will improve, some guys end up peaking really early. There's probably more signs than not that he is getting close to where we expect him to be at his peak. The guys you see with more steep development curves typically have had less opportunity and experience. Scottie has played heavy starter minutes since day 1. An example of someone peaking early would be Tyreke Evans who won ROY himself but stayed the same player basically outside of 1 or 2 outlier seasons.

We can't go taking away All Star selection even as a replacement. Of course it's different than of a starter.

And again, I have said numerous times what I see him as. He isn't a natural scorer, never was. He thinks pass 1st and gets just as much joy from an assist or a block. Deep down that's who he is. And since you mention RJ...he is the opposite. He is a natural scorer and gets his joy from that. But we have still been trying to develop the other parts of his game too....as we should in a development year.

Next year it's about wins. I personally don't care who gets what stats if they are winning lots. I have repeatedly said there is likely cannibalizing of stats among guys since there is only 1 ball. Who cares if they are winning.

But Boogie for some reason ignores all this and only believes I am a Barnes fan who thinks he will be a superstar. He creates fake takes then rails against them all while being a narcissistic and yelling everyone how great a scout he is. But again, did he see Barnes being a ROTY and All Star in year 3? No. Hmm...odd.

Anyways, back to Barnes, I don't see a jump coming, but I didn't see his ROTY or All Star coming. Or Jak hitting a 3. Or Jak taking a 12% jump in FT%. Hell who had Jak as a better FT shooter than RJ this year? Who had Ochai shooting 39.9% from 3 this year vs 21.7% last year as a Rap. Etc...

I just don't like to talk in absolutes. I and everyone can have an opinion and can be based on facts or gut feeling. But anyone saying they KNOW for sure, it's BS. Top scouts/execs don't bat 100%. Of course no one here will. Personally, I hope they all get better even if it’s small steps as it helps the team as a whole. But it's more likely some have good years, others don't. But most of the roster is so young. They have lots of growing to do.

I just mean the talking point of calling him an All-Star in this situation doesn't mean all that much IMO, he was borderline and I think Siakam should have made it over him anyways.

We are seeing more discussion over Scottie because he's about to get paid a max contract. If he was just a mediocre offensive player instead of a really bad one, I think people wouldn't be as concerned. I really don't care if he's not a natural scorer or not but he's likely going to either need to get a lot better offensively or become one of the top 5 defenders in the league if he's going to continue being an offensive liability in order to live up to the contract. Players in that glue guy role do not get paid the max.

[PushDaRock]

If he doesn't develop a post game OR a 3-point shot, he will never live up to his contract. We need one or the other (or both). He can't just live in the mid-range and be a productive offensive player.

That isnt an absolute truth, no.

What path to becoming a productive offensive player do you see for Scottie if he doesn't develop a shot or an inside game?

Probably needs to become a FT merchant. If he can become elite at drawing fouls with a shot diet similar to Maggette/Butler, that's one path to get there. I think he should be watching a lot of tape on those guys, Derozan as well on how they draw fouls. I'm not all that optimistic though as he just doesn't really possess any elite tools offensively.

[Raps in 4]

That isnt an absolute truth, no.

What path to becoming a productive offensive player do you see for Scottie if he doesn't develop a shot or an inside game?

Probably needs to become a FT merchant. If he can become elite at drawing fouls with a shot diet similar to Maggette/Butler, that's one path to get there. I think he should be watching a lot of tape on those guys, Derozan as well on how they draw fouls. I'm not all that optimistic though as he just doesn't really possess any elite tools offensively.

But that's what I mean. He needs an inside game of some sort. He's not going to draw fouls chucking up mid-range jumpers only.

[tsherkin]

What path to becoming a productive offensive player do you see for Scottie if he doesn't develop a shot or an inside game?

Largely the stuff I've already discussed at length ITT: transition, off-ball cuts, corner 3s, putbacks. And then reduced volume overall.

[Scott Hall]

I'm not opposed to listening to trade offers for him in the off season but management still
seems to be very committed to him.

[Indeed]

What path to becoming a productive offensive player do you see for Scottie if he doesn't develop a shot or an inside game?

Largely the stuff I've already discussed at length ITT: transition, off-ball cuts, corner 3s, putbacks. And then reduced volume overall.

He seems to be a good PnR roll man, but all these are for bigs, and hard to imagine he plays the C or we got a stretch 5.

It is more a must for him to develop that 3, and unlikely to be the 1st / 2nd option, since that requires ball penetration.

[Indeed]

Your argument now goes back to no one knows?

Such a cop out. In that case there’s no need for scouting, there’s no need for projections. This is the issue with your stance… you get upset when people make bold proclamations against players, but then when those proclamations are right and go against your opinion, its easy for you to just say well no one knows or could know, you just made a lucky guess…

Just because you don’t have foresight, doesn’t mean other people can’t.

What are you talking about?

Barnes was viewed as a guy who was further away from reaching his peak vs others....a long term project. He was never expected to be in the ROTY race.

And again, after a poor 2nd year. Who expected him to be an All Star last year?

But since you are a scouting genius that no one else can compare to, you MUST have predicted those things to happen, right? Oh wait, you didn't either. Hell, for awhile I have been saying I see him as our future Lowry....3rd scoring guy but 2nd most important. But you continue to ignore that.

So again, wtf are you talking about?

I don't know that I would consider him a real All-Star last year. He was a replacement but he was putting up 20/8/6 on a losing team, that's really not even All-Star caliber realistically. RJ this season was around 22/7/6 and nobody is saying he had an All-Star caliber season.

He's had a weird career arc. He was supposed to be raw but was a lot more ready to produce than anticipated. But, his ceiling is also looking lower than we hoped for. I don't think we can just assume he will improve, some guys end up peaking really early. There's probably more signs than not that he is getting close to where we expect him to be at his peak. The guys you see with more steep development curves typically have had less opportunity and experience. Scottie has played heavy starter minutes since day 1. An example of someone peaking early would be Tyreke Evans who won ROY himself but stayed the same player basically outside of 1 or 2 outlier seasons.

Nurse puts him in the best scenario.
Darko tried him at PG, then PnR roll man with Quickley, neither are good, we now ended up having him in the corner.

Fans here complained, and still someone want him to be PG on offense, he just lacked many things to be one. Perhaps Nurse knows a lot, and played him right all the time.

[PushDaRock]

The list of non shooting 5's that are high level offensive players is Giannis and Zion. Those guys are a tier or 2 above Scottie in athleticism. The 3 ball is probably pretty close to a necessity for him to become a competent offensive player if his USG is going to remain anywhere close to this high.

[anotherhomer]

i think scottie is just a draymond green, not the worst