JayTWill wrote:cgf wrote:JayTWill wrote:He could have played Deuce or Shamet more minutes at the 2 next to Hart or Mikal or possibly OG at the 3 and he could have played Precious more minutes at the 4 next to KAT or possibly KAT at the 4 instead of trying to play all 3 wings together so many minutes. The 3 wing combination isn't even performing that well together.
https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612752&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1628404,1628384,1628969&OnlyCommonGames=trueThe rookies could have also gotten more in game experience especially in the weaker part of the schedule.
Precious came back and then Sims was removed from the rotation. Mitch came back and then Precious was basically removed from the rotation. Shamet seemed to eat away at Deuce's minutes a bit when he initially returned but Mikal's minutes did come down over time. They may ramp back up with Brunson out for an extended period and the playoffs around the corner. Hart's minutes have been increasing but there have been a couple injuries. KAT has been logging many minutes while not looking anywhere close to 100%.
The bench could be better and injuries were also an issue. There are a few coaches that may have done the exact same thing with the minutes as Thibs but there are others that would have been much more flexible with the lineups and minutes. I don't know what the right answer is but Thibs did have other options than the one he chose. I'm not sure what the reward for the option he chose will be.
Shamet missed 30 games and needed time to get back into game shape / find his stroke. Thibs has been using him more over the past 12-13 games now that he's ready...same way Achiuwa & Robinson have needed to be eased back into bigger minutes...which should only continue with Brunson injured. I know you think playing him against Philly in that one game would've made all of the difference, but I think we're talking about 50 more minutes total that we could've squeezed out of Shamet this season.
Thibs tried to give the rookies minutes at the start of the year, but Dadiet wasn't ready, which is why he continued to struggle in the GL...and Kolek can't play next to Brunson or Payne without the defense imploding. Hukporti otoh got some burn before breaking, because he was close to contributing.
And Deuce is already playing 5mpg more than he ever has before, how much more can we really ask of him? 1-2 mpg more? I know he's had some big minute games, but that's different that doing it every night. Either way, that's not the difference between our starters being exhausted and fresh. That difference is Robinson missing ~60 games, Shamet missing ~30, Achiuwa missing ~20, McBride missing 10, and us not having anyone else who can give us more than ~14mpg.
I'm sure some other coach would've handled things differently, but I'm not sure our record would be as strong as it is or we'd be in a meaningfully better position since I don't think any amount of gametime was gunna make Dadiet ready this season.
You mention Shamet and Precious missing 20-30 games after being injured in the pre-season. Thibs decided to play Dadiet in the first game of the season. He played 1 short stint of 5 minutes with Knicks already down 15 points in the first half and did not come back until the Knicks were down by 35 in the 4th. Thibs proceeded to remove him from the rotation completely after 1 game. 1 GAME! ONE!!!!!!!!!!!
He returned the rotation a month later with team shorthanded and he looked fine in a short 3-4 game period imo. Thibs removed him from the rotation for the rest of the year after that. I'm not judging a player from some random garbage time minutes or some stats from G-League games where I have yet to find a single person that has actually watched him play. Can you tell me how he looks in the G-League since you say he is not ready? I'm truly curious to know how he looks.
It's not just 1 Philly game. It's every game. Tonight's game against the Warriors you can see some of the choices Thibs makes. You said Kolek can't play next to Brunson. Brunson is out right now and Kolek still isn't playing for a team that lacks ball handlers and facilitators.
Deuce is currently playing 30-40 as an on-ball 1 with limited playmaking skills but asking him to average more than 24 mpg as an off-ball 2 seems unreasonable to you.
Shamet couldn't get minutes early on because he was struggling with his shot or something but Hart is leading the league and this last game in minutes for Thibs while his shooting has been in the tank for months with teams basically ignoring him and he is not even a great defender to balance it out. I have no idea how Hart of all people is the guy leading the league in minutes. Thibs is going to play certain guys more no matter what.
He shortened the rotation from 9 to 8 in the second half and reduced the minutes of guys 6-8. It has been his formula in many games throughout the season leading to heavier minutes for the starters. It doesn't matter how many guys he has available. If Brunson was healthy someone likely would have been removed from the rotation and the same formula would have been implemented.
Four starters for the Knicks played 38 minutes+ while Curry was the highest at 35 minutes for the Warriors. I'm not saying Thibs is wrong or right for doing it. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.
Why are you concerned with seeding anyway after watching Thibs for so many years? He was knocked out in the 1st round in 5 games his first year with the Knicks as the higher seed. He lost to a play-in team in his second appearance and they had to fight to the death to get out of the 1st round last year as a 2 seed before breaking down in the 2nd round.
Didn't mean to ignore this, but you write so much that it's hard to find the time to respond without feeling like I'm giving you shortschrift / skipping some of your points. But I'll try to group my responses to cover most of what you mentioned here
Let me start with Deuce, who we have seen play big minutes for short stretches...but that's very different from playing those same minutes for a whole season. That's why I think it was good coaching for Thibs to be patient with Deuce and let him set a new career high in MPG, without leaning on him too much and at any point over burdening him.
I know that as fans we want to see the kids as much as possible and some assume that all PT helps development, but we've seen too many kids' development stagnate when they get overwhelmed and we don't see these kids in practice every day the way the coaches do. So I think there's a reason that Thibs isn't treating Kolek & Dadiet the same way he treated Quickley, Grimes, or McBride...despite the obvious need that has Thibs using his bench less than ever before.
I'm actually a fan of both our healthy rookies' potential...Dadiet's stroke looks like it should hit and he moves his feet well defensively, but when he came in tonight the first thing he did was give up an And-1 with a silly foul, before missing on an open 3. We saw what Deuce did to earn more PT when it wasn't there, now we're seeing what Dadiet is doing with plenty of PT for him to claim.
Similarly, Kolek looks very crafty, but what has he shown to win the job from Payne? Cam is a better defender and despite his shooting funk over the past month or so, is still shooting a decent percentage from 3, who doesn't turn the ball over often, and has a tighter handle than Tyler. I'm optimistic that by next spring Kolek will be an upgrade over Payne, but right now? That's just wishcasting.
Hart is the heart / grit in that starting lineup, that's why he gets such big minutes even when his shot is off...well that, and the connectivity he provides as a passer & playmaker in transition, for a team that lacks secondary playmaking. I certainly won't argue that I wouldn't have played Shamet over him down the stretch against GSW, I posted as much in the gamethread, but again Shamet just was not playing this well 20+ games ago. He is now and his minutes have been way up.
After the past 4 years, why do you assume that Thibs wouldn't use his depth more than he has been, if it was there for him? He's never lead the league in bench minutes, but he's never come close to using his bench this little...and as we've gotten healthier he's been using them more.
Like tonight they got 72 minutes before garbage time, after 57 bench minutes against GSW because Payne had a terrible night and Mitch visibly gassed during his shifts. That's not crazy or anything, but 70 bench minutes leaves just 34 minutes for each of the starters to fill. And we have averaged more than 70 bench minutes a game in each of the past 4 teams.
So all of the evidence points to the rookies just not being ready...which is seldom helped by rushing and setting them up to fail. But I believe in erring on the side of over-cooking young players, keeping them challenged but setting them up to succeed by gradually increasing their responsibilities. I know others have other philosophies wrt youth development.
Also I don't care about seeding per say...in fact, I wouldn't mind if Indiana passed us so we could face Milwaukee in round one and Cleveland in round 2...but not only does winning breed good habits; us having stacked so many wins gives us more wiggle room to experiment now that our guys are starting to get healthy.
