FIRE WELTMAN

[AdamTheGreek]

Now that Suggs is out for the year, I worry this gives the front office a built in excuse to play wait and see for another season.

Nah, can’t use that excuse.
Suggs is now an injury-plagued asset. They knew that when they extended him.

[SloNick Russia]

We have 4 double degit scorers on this team and we lost 2 of them for the season.
Almost 30 ppg combined. Yet somehow there is nobody on a roster capable of scoring 10 points per game even on extra PT. What kind of roster is that?
I think every other NBA team has a number of dudes ready to score 20 ppg given a chance to shine.

Sent from my SM-S928B using RealGM mobile app

[CarraT]

We have 4 double degit scorers on this team and we lost 2 of them for the season.
Almost 30 ppg combined. Yet somehow there is nobody on a roster capable of scoring 10 points per game even on extra PT. What kind of roster is that?
I think every other NBA team has a number of dudes ready to score 20 ppg given a chance to shine.

Sent from my SM-S928B using RealGM mobile app

People always talk down on players from losing teams, calling their stats empty and saying it’s easy to put up big numbers on bad teams. Meanwhile, our players besides Franz/PB can’t even do that.

[Fortune Teller]

We have 4 double degit scorers on this team and we lost 2 of them for the season.
Almost 30 ppg combined. Yet somehow there is nobody on a roster capable of scoring 10 points per game even on extra PT. What kind of roster is that?
I think every other NBA team has a number of dudes ready to score 20 ppg given a chance to shine.

Sent from my SM-S928B using RealGM mobile app

People always talk down on players from losing teams, calling their stats empty and saying it’s easy to put up big numbers on bad teams. Meanwhile, our players besides Franz/PB can’t even do that.

The injuries this season have revealed how little talent is on this roster. Guys like AB, Wendell, Cole and Isaac all had opportunities to step up and have career years and they've done nothing.

[Ducklett]

I gotta say that Suns pick swap is really looking amazing at this juncture.

[basketballRob]

I gotta say that Suns pick swap is really looking amazing at this juncture.

As far as I know their are no protections on it. I wish it was this season.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[thelead]

I gotta say that Suns pick swap is really looking amazing at this juncture.

As far as I know their are no protections on it. I wish it was this season.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Do you really think the Suns will be better next season? Seems unlikely. Hell, it seems likely that they'll be worse next year.

[Ducklett]

I gotta say that Suns pick swap is really looking amazing at this juncture.

As far as I know their are no protections on it. I wish it was this season.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Everyone has Durant gone this summer after the fight he had with buzenholder this weekend. I doubt they get better. There is a nonzero protection on it because the Wizards get first swap.

[Skybox]

PHX could look quite different next year. KD is the obvious one and once their below the second apron, there's more they can do...I wouldn't be surprised to see Beal agree to a trade - but he'd have to like it. He was pretty clear, like KD was, that he didn't want his family uprooted mid-season. Summer's a different story. He has a NTC, but there's a point where a guy's pride wants to show em too...in the right situation only.

We might want to get in that mix too...perhaps dangling the swap as a carrot...I'm talking about Grayson or Dunn (neither of whom we really have a spot for now), but hopefully some significant changes to the roster...

[Ducklett]

PHX could look quite different next year. KD is the obvious one and once their below the second apron, there's more they can do...I wouldn't be surprised to see Beal agree to a trade - but he'd have to like it. He was pretty clear, like KD was, that he didn't want his family uprooted mid-season. Summer's a different story. He has a NTC, but there's a point where a guy's pride wants to show em too...in the right situation only.

We might want to get in that mix too...perhaps dangling the swap as a carrot...I'm talking about Grayson or Dunn (neither of whom we really have a spot for now), but hopefully some significant changes to the roster...

Is anyone on their roster other than Booker worth that swap? Blind like this. Good chance Booker and Durant are gone over the summer or at the deadline. We could get a free top 8 pick in a draft next year with 4 dudes better than Flagg.

[PrimeThyme]

One of the reasons Jeff Weltman and the entire Magic organization are so passive is that they receive zero pressure from the fans and media in Orlando.

Yeah.. I can't speak to Magic Twitter or R/OrlandoMagic during this period, but many of us have been banging the drum regarding Weltman and his extreme passivity/flaws dating back to 2018.

The issue is the 2021 and 2022 drafts not only saved his entire legacy, but they validated many of his archaic beliefs on roster building and management that had gotten us nowhere up until a loaded draft class in 2021 and us falling into the first overall pick in 2022. Drafting Franz and Banchero can make many problems disseapear for a while, but they do not go away entirely.

The reality is the same old cowardly, egotistical, and man of infinite time and patience is still there. Wait 4 years to start a rebuild despite clear evidence in year 1? Sure, why not. Acquire injury riddled players and burn years of salary and roster spots on them for very little ROI? Sure, why not. Command a basketball organization who in the almost decade you've run it has yet to finish as a top 20 3pt shooting team despite being in a 3pt shooting era? Of, course. All of this has actually led Martin's to awarding him an extension for what will now be the 6th time in 8 years we will finish with a losing record.

Leadership starts at the top, and Weltman has been enabled. I loved seeing his face while we were getting blown out on national television the other day because to me I saw it as him, for the first time, having to deal with the embarrassment of what he has built here. He officially lost the battle with what the NBA media and fanbase has criticized him about for years.

Now the pressure is on and things are sure to get interesting starting this summer imo. For better or worse.

[VFX]

One of the reasons Jeff Weltman and the entire Magic organization are so passive is that they receive zero pressure from the fans and media in Orlando.

Yeah.. I can't speak to Magic Twitter or R/OrlandoMagic during this period, but many of us have been banging the drum regarding Weltman and his extreme passivity/flaws dating back to 2018.

The issue is the 2021 and 2022 drafts not only saved his entire legacy, but they validated many of his archaic beliefs on roster building and management that had gotten us nowhere up until a loaded draft class in 2021 and us falling into the first overall pick in 2022. Drafting Franz and Banchero can make many problems disseapear for a while, but they do not go away entirely.

The reality is the same old cowardly, egotistical, and man of infinite time and patience is still there. Wait 4 years to start a rebuild despite clear evidence in year 1? Sure, why not. Acquire injury riddled players and burn years of salary and roster spots on them for very little ROI? Sure, why not. Command a basketball organization who in the almost decade you've run it has yet to finish as a top 20 3pt shooting team despite being in a 3pt shooting era? Of, course. All of this has actually led Martin's to awarding him an extension for what will now be the 6th time in 8 years we will finish with a losing record.

Leadership starts at the top, and Weltman has been enabled. I loved seeing his face while we were getting blown out on national television the other day because to me I saw it as him, for the first time, having to deal with the embarrassment of what he has built here. He officially lost the battle with what the NBA media and fanbase has criticized him about for years.

Now the pressure is on and things are sure to get interesting starting this summer imo. For better or worse.

where have you been brother?

[PrimeThyme]

where have you been brother?

Unfortunately, over the last few years I officially became one of those occasional RealGM lurkers that still tries to pop in every now and then for the big stuff..Reddit/Twitter has come far since the casualness of the 2016-2022 era, but nothing quite beats RealGM for my tastes.

Experiencing the trauma of the 2016-2021 Orlando Magic era together like many of us did builds a special comradery, so I'm going to try and become a more active poster again

[Skybox]

Next development...Paolo puts the whole team on his back and "inefficiently" carries their lame asses into the playoffs and maybe even wins one game there by going one on 5 for 40mpg.

Weltman rejoices and declares himself a team-building genius instead of facing reality.

[Skybox]

Even if I believed in Weltman...a lame duck GM just can't rebuild on the fly. It just never happens that the same guy that has been "assessing" these same guys for years finally starts throwing switches, left and right. It's not human nature for him to not cling to his vision, rather than embrace a new one. He has to go with the vision...it probably HAS TO be a whole new FO if there are to be wholesale changes in team construction. Franz, Paolo, probably Suggs...ideally, everything else is up for consideration. I think TdS is a good solid budget rotation guy. I really like AB if we just allow him to be KCP off the bench, behind Suggs, instead of all of these All-Star or maybe even starter fantasies.

The rest...I mean they are basically inconsequential and a new, bold GM could just start moving guys and picks around to assemble a different ensemble in one summer if they truly wanted to...but you have to accept that some of the moves will be painful individually, but play vital parts in establishing (at the very least) a little breathing room for the next moves.

[Kent]

Even if I believed in Weltman...a lame duck GM just can't rebuild on the fly. It just never happens that the same guy that has been "assessing" these same guys for years finally starts throwing switches, left and right. It's not human nature for him to not cling to his vision, rather than embrace a new one. He has to go with the vision...it probably HAS TO be a whole new FO if there are to be wholesale changes in team construction. Franz, Paolo, probably Suggs...ideally, everything else is up for consideration. I think TdS is a good solid budget rotation guy. I really like AB if we just allow him to be KCP off the bench, behind Suggs, instead of all of these All-Star or maybe even starter fantasies.

The rest...I mean they are basically inconsequential and a new, bold GM could just start moving guys and picks around to assemble a different ensemble in one summer if they truly wanted to...but you have to accept that some of the moves will be painful individually, but play vital parts in establishing (at the very least) a little breathing room for the next moves.

Exactly what I've been thinking and saying.

I'm not hating on the guy. I appreciate what he's done.

But it's next man up, as they say.

Gotta give the reins to the next person who can refine what we have so we can take the next step.

[Fortune Teller]

Even if I believed in Weltman...a lame duck GM just can't rebuild on the fly. It just never happens that the same guy that has been "assessing" these same guys for years finally starts throwing switches, left and right. It's not human nature for him to not cling to his vision, rather than embrace a new one. He has to go with the vision...it probably HAS TO be a whole new FO if there are to be wholesale changes in team construction. Franz, Paolo, probably Suggs...ideally, everything else is up for consideration. I think TdS is a good solid budget rotation guy. I really like AB if we just allow him to be KCP off the bench, behind Suggs, instead of all of these All-Star or maybe even starter fantasies.

The rest...I mean they are basically inconsequential and a new, bold GM could just start moving guys and picks around to assemble a different ensemble in one summer if they truly wanted to...but you have to accept that some of the moves will be painful individually, but play vital parts in establishing (at the very least) a little breathing room for the next moves.

Agree, and that's why it's not as simple as "has he done a good job or a bad job?" He's assembled what he has assembled. There is no question the team won't miraculously improve by adding a draft pick every year but otherwise standing pat. So it's time to ask a simple question -- is Jeff capable of building this team, with his core, into a true contender? Has he given us any reason to believe that he can do it? Does he have a track record of doing it anywhere else? Does his "vision" of ignoring the PG position and the three ball seem to be working?

It's no to every question, right?

[Skybox]

Even if I believed in Weltman...a lame duck GM just can't rebuild on the fly. It just never happens that the same guy that has been "assessing" these same guys for years finally starts throwing switches, left and right. It's not human nature for him to not cling to his vision, rather than embrace a new one. He has to go with the vision...it probably HAS TO be a whole new FO if there are to be wholesale changes in team construction. Franz, Paolo, probably Suggs...ideally, everything else is up for consideration. I think TdS is a good solid budget rotation guy. I really like AB if we just allow him to be KCP off the bench, behind Suggs, instead of all of these All-Star or maybe even starter fantasies.

The rest...I mean they are basically inconsequential and a new, bold GM could just start moving guys and picks around to assemble a different ensemble in one summer if they truly wanted to...but you have to accept that some of the moves will be painful individually, but play vital parts in establishing (at the very least) a little breathing room for the next moves.

Agree, and that's why it's not as simple as "has he done a good job or a bad job?" He's assembled what he has assembled. There is no question the team won't miraculously improve by adding a draft pick every year but otherwise standing pat. So it's time to ask a simple question -- is Jeff capable of building this team, with his core, into a true contender? Has he given us any reason to believe that he can do it? Does he have a track record of doing it anywhere else? Does his "vision" of ignoring the PG position and the three ball seem to be working?

It's no to every question, right?

Kind of like how some coaches like Clifford and, until this year, Atkinson were considered "developmental" and "can only get you so far, but good for a young team"....maybe that's Weltman...maybe that's Mose too. I really do like where we're at...but the next step will look a lot different than the steps that got us to this point.

[Black and Blue]

To throw a wrench in the plans of many of us that feel like Weltman should be held accountable for years of inactivity - We admittedly all don't know how much ownership is involved in any of this. When the Mavs traded Luka, Grimes, Brunson and a whole treasure trove of talent for beans, all eyes went to the GM...but in the weeks and months since all we have learned is how much the Mavs ownership aligned with and likely told Nico Harrison to make those moves.

Do I believe Weltman thinks the wisest use of 2nd rounders is cash considerations? No.

Do I believe Weltman isn't being pressured to avoid any large scale deals at a time when Magic ownership is spending a ton of money on revelopment in the area? No.

Do I think the ownership group is going to ignore the fact that ALL of the organization's prior success involved drafting or developing young talent? No.

That said, it doesn't absolve Weltman from blame and it can be argued that those of us screaming for moves the past several offseasons we onto something. Now we have an upset franchise player who may threaten to sign only the qualifying offer (not saying he will do it, but he may threaten it). Now the league knows we are desperate to make moves, which hurts leverage. Now many of the players we resigned will be more difficult to move as their prices all went up as their production cratered.

Barring some major behind the scenes pressure from Paolo and agent Mike Miller, I wouldn't be surprised to see Weltman and Parker come back next season. And I can't say that makes me very optimistic.

[Kent]

Even if I believed in Weltman...a lame duck GM just can't rebuild on the fly. It just never happens that the same guy that has been "assessing" these same guys for years finally starts throwing switches, left and right. It's not human nature for him to not cling to his vision, rather than embrace a new one. He has to go with the vision...it probably HAS TO be a whole new FO if there are to be wholesale changes in team construction. Franz, Paolo, probably Suggs...ideally, everything else is up for consideration. I think TdS is a good solid budget rotation guy. I really like AB if we just allow him to be KCP off the bench, behind Suggs, instead of all of these All-Star or maybe even starter fantasies.

The rest...I mean they are basically inconsequential and a new, bold GM could just start moving guys and picks around to assemble a different ensemble in one summer if they truly wanted to...but you have to accept that some of the moves will be painful individually, but play vital parts in establishing (at the very least) a little breathing room for the next moves.

Agree, and that's why it's not as simple as "has he done a good job or a bad job?" He's assembled what he has assembled. There is no question the team won't miraculously improve by adding a draft pick every year but otherwise standing pat. So it's time to ask a simple question -- is Jeff capable of building this team, with his core, into a true contender? Has he given us any reason to believe that he can do it? Does he have a track record of doing it anywhere else? Does his "vision" of ignoring the PG position and the three ball seem to be working?

It's no to every question, right?

Kind of like how some coaches like Clifford and, until this year, Atkinson were considered "developmental" and "can only get you so far, but good for a young team"....maybe that's Weltman...maybe that's Mose too. I really do like where we're at...but the next step will look a lot different than the steps that got us to this point.

Agree with both of your comments.

I'll rephrase Fortune Teller's question...

Do you believe in Weltman enough to build a championship-winning roster?

If your answer is "no" like it is for me, we shouldn't wait in finding his successor.