Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[Raps in 4]

This falls squarely on Masai. Normally he's great at developing players, but he's completely mismanaged Scottie. I get the desire to try and mould him into an elite offensive player, but it shouldn't need to take you four years to realize he lacks the requisite talent to develop certain skills.

I remember on draft day when we picked Scottie, Masai made it a point to emphasize that you can't teach length, but you can teach shooting. I feel he's trying (and failing) to prove his point with Scottie.

Scottie is at fault for not getting better. No one else.

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

Nobody is saying anything about forcing him to be a role player. We still need him to be a foundational piece of our offence. It's up to management to realize he'll never be Steph Curry though. They should have had him playing like a bigman this season, given his limitations shooting the ball for three years now.

[dballislife]

it is very possible he ends the season with 43% fg 25% from 3...wtf happened?

[PushDaRock]

Scottie is at fault for not getting better. No one else.

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

Nobody is saying anything about forcing him to be a role player. We still need him to be a foundational piece of our offence. It's up to management to realize he'll never be Steph Curry though. They should have had him playing like a bigman this season, given his limitations shooting the ball for three years now.

What does playing like a "bigman" even mean? Set screens, roll, hang out at the dunker spot, so basically role player stuff?

You're saying he should be a foundational piece offensive, so who's the comparable that he should be playing like given his skillset?

[PushDaRock]

it is very possible he ends the season with 43% fg 25% from 3...wtf happened?

surprised scase doesn't have a "Barnes is shooting the 3 at a historically bad rate, and has a chance to be one of the worst in NBA history." thread up yet.

[PushDaRock]

This isn't entirely true. Scottie seems to be able to get into the paint without much issue. The problem is finishing when he shoots from there, and especially when he's outside of the paint. But based on his volume and shot distribution, him getting southbound isn't the problem. A screen, half a step and he can muscle forward to get on the spot he wants pretty well. That hasn't been the problem.

The problem is that "in the paint" is different than "at the rim", it's the latter that is much more valuable. If you look at Sabonis, his zone shooting % splits have not been that different from Barnes historically, he just gets all the way to the rim more frequently.

I don't think he's even trying to finish when he gets in the paint most of the time, he's more looking to create some contact and draw a foul. That leads to a lot of ugly attempts when it doesn't work and he just throws something up at the rim. I don't even necessarily think it's a bad approach given his other limitations, the only thing trending up for him in his career has been his FTR. So, we could at least say he's getting better at it but he still has a ways to go before becoming a FT merchant.

[Scase]

This falls squarely on Masai. Normally he's great at developing players, but he's completely mismanaged Scottie. I get the desire to try and mould him into an elite offensive player, but it shouldn't need to take you four years to realize he lacks the requisite talent to develop certain skills.

I remember on draft day when we picked Scottie, Masai made it a point to emphasize that you can't teach length, but you can teach shooting. I feel he's trying (and failing) to prove his point with Scottie.

Scottie is at fault for not getting better. No one else.

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

So then are we just admitting that no team, coach, training staff, or any FO exec has anything to do with development? Then why does it matter where guys get drafted? Why do some guys exceed expectations, and others fall below them?

Just all on the player? Scottie is far from faultless, but the FO is the one that controls his training regimen, they determine what skills he should be focusing on and improving, they control virtually all of that.

What kind of **** tier FO would just let a player dictate it all themselves? Just waste their hundreds of millions of dollars of investment, to let some **** 20 year old control all his training? Stop being naive.

The brunt of every and any players development is on the team, the effort is what the player is measured by.

[PushDaRock]

Scottie is at fault for not getting better. No one else.

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

So then are we just admitting that no team, coach, training staff, or any FO exec has anything to do with development? Then why does it matter where guys get drafted? Why do some guys exceed expectations, and others fall below them?

Just all on the player? Scottie is far from faultless, but the FO is the one that controls his training regimen, they determine what skills he should be focusing on and improving, they control virtually all of that.

What kind of **** tier FO would just let a player dictate it all themselves? Just waste their hundreds of millions of dollars of investment, to let some **** 20 year old control all his training? Stop being naive.

The brunt of every and any players development is on the team, the effort is what the player is measured by.

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

[tsherkin]

I don't think he's even trying to finish when he gets in the paint most of the time, he's more looking to create some contact and draw a foul. That leads to a lot of ugly attempts when it doesn't work and he just throws something up at the rim. I don't even necessarily think it's a bad approach given his other limitations, the only thing trending up for him in his career has been his FTR. So, we could at least say he's getting better at it but he still has a ways to go before becoming a FT merchant.

Yeah, he's up north of .290 right now and has a slight upward tick every year so far. That's encouraging, at least. And he's back to around 77, 78% at the line after that dip earlier in the year, which is also good. If he can keep that up, it's going to help. That said, his efficiency has tanked out even worse every month of the new year, so it hasn't really mattered. But if he can keep it up next year, when he should have less overall scoring responsibility, then maybe we've got something to work with. It's better to see than not, after all.

[Los_29]

This falls squarely on Masai. Normally he's great at developing players, but he's completely mismanaged Scottie. I get the desire to try and mould him into an elite offensive player, but it shouldn't need to take you four years to realize he lacks the requisite talent to develop certain skills.

I remember on draft day when we picked Scottie, Masai made it a point to emphasize that you can't teach length, but you can teach shooting. I feel he's trying (and failing) to prove his point with Scottie.

Scottie is at fault for not getting better. No one else.

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

I was thinking the same thing, and I’m honestly shocked to see it. Didn’t think they’d go this far. But they did.

They wanted to give him the keys, they did and he was a complete and utter disaster.

[tsherkin]

They wanted to give him the keys, they did and he was a complete and utter disaster.

Yeah, this was clearly The Plan (TM). They didn't emphasize other things, and the results haven't been great. Now they need to pivot, or this will be an albatross on the team's neck. Not that we need to trade him, just that we need to reconfigure how we use him and conceive of his role.

[Los_29]

it is very possible he ends the season with 43% fg 25% from 3...wtf happened?

surprised scase doesn't have a "Barnes is shooting the 3 at a historically bad rate, and has a chance to be one of the worst in NBA history." thread up yet.

Can’t believe we’ve rostered the two worst shooters in NBA history the past two years.

[anotherhomer]

They wanted to give him the keys, they did and he was a complete and utter disaster.

Yeah, this was clearly The Plan (TM). They didn't emphasize other things, and the results haven't been great. Now they need to pivot, or this will be an albatross on the team's neck. Not that we need to trade him, just that we need to reconfigure how we use him and conceive of his role.

Part of it is also him not resting that ankle....that wasn't smart

[tsherkin]

They wanted to give him the keys, they did and he was a complete and utter disaster.

Yeah, this was clearly The Plan (TM). They didn't emphasize other things, and the results haven't been great. Now they need to pivot, or this will be an albatross on the team's neck. Not that we need to trade him, just that we need to reconfigure how we use him and conceive of his role.

Part of it is also him not resting that ankle....that wasn't smart

I'm sure it didn't help, though I doubt that's been a huge issue for him. His mobility hasn't looked materially worse and he was never explosive to begin with.

[Los_29]

Scottie actually entered the league in a great situation. He wasn’t asked to score and had players with experience, some of whom had already won a championship.

I think we are now seeing how silly it was to think handing the keys to Scottie was the answer. I think that’s why the team surrounded him with players like IQ and RJ because they knew he wasn’t good enough to completely take control.

[anotherhomer]

Yeah, this was clearly The Plan (TM). They didn't emphasize other things, and the results haven't been great. Now they need to pivot, or this will be an albatross on the team's neck. Not that we need to trade him, just that we need to reconfigure how we use him and conceive of his role.

Part of it is also him not resting that ankle....that wasn't smart

I'm sure it didn't help, though I doubt that's been a huge issue for him. His mobility hasn't looked materially worse and he was never explosive to begin with.

i don't think barnes has made that big jump but i do see some positives.
opposing teams are throwing the double at him when he has the back to mid-range which helps

that said, he's still 23 and has some more upside

[PushDaRock]

Scottie actually entered the league in a great situation. He wasn’t asked to score and had players with experience, some of whom had already won a championship.

I think we are now seeing how silly it was to think handing the keys to Scottie was the answer. I think that’s why the team surrounded him with players like IQ and RJ because they knew he wasn’t good enough to completely take control.

Scary to think how he would look offensively if we bottomed out instead.

[tsherkin]

Scary to think how he would look offensively if we bottomed out instead.

Is it?

I wonder if anything different would have happened.

[PushDaRock]

Scary to think how he would look offensively if we bottomed out instead.

Is it?

I wonder if anything different would have happened.

On that type of team, his USG is probably up around 30%. I think his TS% would have probably been under 50% in that type of situation.

[tsherkin]

On that type of team, his USG is probably up around 30%. I think his TS% would have probably been under 50% in that type of situation.

Maybe? I suspect it's more likely that it would still be around where it is now. He's just under 27% USG right now, so a move to 30% would be THAT large a change in his actual volume.

[PushDaRock]

On that type of team, his USG is probably up around 30%. I think his TS% would have probably been under 50% in that type of situation.

Maybe? I suspect it's more likely that it would still be around where it is now. He's just under 27% USG right now, so a move to 30% would be THAT large a change in his actual volume.

It would be increased USG with worse teammates to pass the ball to meaning he likely takes a lot more bad shots. We saw that with RJ earlier in the year when he was well over 30% USG and sporting a sub 50 TS%. I mean right now, he already has RJ as the #1 option and also IQ as well taking pressure off him and he's still struggling badly with his efficiency. Don't think it's exactly a reach that he would struggle even more without them there.