Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[tsherkin]

It would be increased USG with worse teammates to pass the ball to meaning he likely takes a lot more bad shots.

Or they just miss when he passes.

Don't think it's exactly a reach that he would struggle even more without them there.

I think it isn't necessarily the case. He gets into the paint, he draws fouls and is competent at the line, he shoots somewhere NEAR league-average there. It's hard to see him dropping a lot further on a fairly minor usage increase. If we were in that 33-35% territory, maybe, but like, I don't see a huge, huge change, tbh.

[PushDaRock]

It would be increased USG with worse teammates to pass the ball to meaning he likely takes a lot more bad shots.

Or they just miss when he passes.

Don't think it's exactly a reach that he would struggle even more without them there.

I think it isn't necessarily the case. He gets into the paint, he draws fouls and is competent at the line, he shoots somewhere NEAR league-average there. It's hard to see him dropping a lot further on a fairly minor usage increase. If we were in that 33-35% territory, maybe, but like, I don't see a huge, huge change, tbh.

If they miss when he passes, it would make sense to put even more defensive focus on not letting him get to the rim at all so I think the increased USG probably just ends up being more midrange and 3's getting launched which we already know isn't an efficient shot for him.

[tsherkin]

If they miss when he passes, it would make sense to put even more defensive focus on not letting him get to the rim at all so I think the increased USG probably just ends up being more midrange and 3's getting launched which we already know isn't an efficient shot for him.

There is a degree to which you can't actually stop him from getting there, though. And like, if you triple him (which would be necessary to wall him off when he takes a high screen), then the shots he'll get his teammates will be so open that even a bottomed-out team with G-Leaguers would be hitting them, ala Lawson.

[Scase]

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

So then are we just admitting that no team, coach, training staff, or any FO exec has anything to do with development? Then why does it matter where guys get drafted? Why do some guys exceed expectations, and others fall below them?

Just all on the player? Scottie is far from faultless, but the FO is the one that controls his training regimen, they determine what skills he should be focusing on and improving, they control virtually all of that.

What kind of **** tier FO would just let a player dictate it all themselves? Just waste their hundreds of millions of dollars of investment, to let some **** 20 year old control all his training? Stop being naive.

The brunt of every and any players development is on the team, the effort is what the player is measured by.

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

[Raps in 4]

So then are we just admitting that no team, coach, training staff, or any FO exec has anything to do with development? Then why does it matter where guys get drafted? Why do some guys exceed expectations, and others fall below them?

Just all on the player? Scottie is far from faultless, but the FO is the one that controls his training regimen, they determine what skills he should be focusing on and improving, they control virtually all of that.

What kind of **** tier FO would just let a player dictate it all themselves? Just waste their hundreds of millions of dollars of investment, to let some **** 20 year old control all his training? Stop being naive.

The brunt of every and any players development is on the team, the effort is what the player is measured by.

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

Nah, you're wrong. Players run teams. Executives and coaches are just there for show. They don't actually dictate anything. Owners just pay them millions of dollars to sit around while their 20-something year-old $200+ million investments are allowed to manage themselves.

[TakeYourHeart]

Scottie is at fault for not getting better. No one else.

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

Nobody is saying anything about forcing him to be a role player. We still need him to be a foundational piece of our offence. It's up to management to realize he'll never be Steph Curry though. They should have had him playing like a bigman this season, given his limitations shooting the ball for three years now.

Year 4 is not the year to tell your rookie of the year all star lotto pick with aspirations of being a lead guard that he is now a big man. Player development takes time and Scottie was always a longer term project. They did exactly what they should have done this year, provide Scottie a reasonable and necessary runway. To blame the FO that he did not takeoff is simply preposterous. Anyhow, the pivot to his role is coming if it isn't here already. The trade for BI and current lotto hunt signals as much.

[Indeed]

So then are we just admitting that no team, coach, training staff, or any FO exec has anything to do with development? Then why does it matter where guys get drafted? Why do some guys exceed expectations, and others fall below them?

Just all on the player? Scottie is far from faultless, but the FO is the one that controls his training regimen, they determine what skills he should be focusing on and improving, they control virtually all of that.

What kind of **** tier FO would just let a player dictate it all themselves? Just waste their hundreds of millions of dollars of investment, to let some **** 20 year old control all his training? Stop being naive.

The brunt of every and any players development is on the team, the effort is what the player is measured by.

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

It is just silly to claim the team didnt set Barnes for success. The 3s that he is allowed to take, and blame that on management. The PnR roll man with Quickley that we forced it down before we decided he is at best a corner 3 low usgae player.

Wake up, Barnes was put way more chances than Barrett. Barrett proved he can be the 1st option and being efficient by passing the ball. Barrett was asked to guard all 3 positions and frequently the opposing best players, even though being mixed. Barrett and Agbaji have some failed assingment, but they are improving. Barnes and Dick have failed all, and not improving. Facts are clear.

[PushDaRock]

So then are we just admitting that no team, coach, training staff, or any FO exec has anything to do with development? Then why does it matter where guys get drafted? Why do some guys exceed expectations, and others fall below them?

Just all on the player? Scottie is far from faultless, but the FO is the one that controls his training regimen, they determine what skills he should be focusing on and improving, they control virtually all of that.

What kind of **** tier FO would just let a player dictate it all themselves? Just waste their hundreds of millions of dollars of investment, to let some **** 20 year old control all his training? Stop being naive.

The brunt of every and any players development is on the team, the effort is what the player is measured by.

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

lol predictable that you would downplay any sort of improvement our players have made. Just complete nonsense when you say stuff like they didn't improve and only increased USG.

Since you're the expert on player development, what should Scottie have worked on to make the jump from what he built on last season as a scorer? What does he do well at an elite level that we could have him use more of that we didn't?

[PushDaRock]

The excuses are just getting ridiculous. First, it was all the vets like FVV and Siakam not letting him shine and forcing him into a role player. But now, the excuse is that management actually allowed him too much freedom to shoot 3's and work on his offensive game instead of forcing him to stick to being a role player.

Nobody is saying anything about forcing him to be a role player. We still need him to be a foundational piece of our offence. It's up to management to realize he'll never be Steph Curry though. They should have had him playing like a bigman this season, given his limitations shooting the ball for three years now.

Year 4 is not the year to tell your rookie of the year all star lotto pick with aspirations of being a lead guard that he is now a big man. Player development takes time and Scottie was always a longer term project. They did exactly what they should have done this year, provide Scottie a reasonable and necessary runway. To blame the FO that he did not takeoff is simply preposterous. Anyhow, the pivot to his role is coming if it isn't here already. The trade for BI and current lotto hunt signals as much.

Like I've been saying, the same people that whined about Siakam holding him back are the same people complaining about management not setting him up for success now. In a development year where we aren't trying to win games, we gave him freedom to expand his game. Him not taking advantage of it is on him, not management. Other guys on the team have taken advantage, look at the steps RJ and IQ have taken with their playmaking. Getting Ingram is the admission from management that he's not going to be a #1 option.

[PushDaRock]

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

It is just silly to claim the team didnt set Barnes for success. The 3s that he is allowed to take, and blame that on management. The PnR roll man with Quickley that we forced it down before we decided he is at best a corner 3 low usgae player.

Wake up, Barnes was put way more chances than Barrett. Barrett proved he can be the 1st option and being efficient by passing the ball. Barrett was asked to guard all 3 positions and frequently the opposing best players, even though being mixed. Barrett and Agbaji have some failed assingment, but they are improving. Barnes and Dick have failed all, and not improving. Facts are clear.

Just ridiculous really if we are going to start blaming player failures on the management. This board has some weird obsession with absolving Scottie from all blame and making excuses for him. Fred certainly wasn't far off calling him the Golden Child.

[Raps in 4]

Nobody is saying anything about forcing him to be a role player. We still need him to be a foundational piece of our offence. It's up to management to realize he'll never be Steph Curry though. They should have had him playing like a bigman this season, given his limitations shooting the ball for three years now.

Year 4 is not the year to tell your rookie of the year all star lotto pick with aspirations of being a lead guard that he is now a big man. Player development takes time and Scottie was always a longer term project. They did exactly what they should have done this year, provide Scottie a reasonable and necessary runway. To blame the FO that he did not takeoff is simply preposterous. Anyhow, the pivot to his role is coming if it isn't here already. The trade for BI and current lotto hunt signals as much.

Like I've been saying, the same people that whined about Siakam holding him back are the same people complaining about management not setting him up for success now. In a development year where we aren't trying to win games, we gave him freedom to expand his game. Him not taking advantage of it is on him, not management. Other guys on the team have taken advantage, look at the steps RJ and IQ have taken with their playmaking. Getting Ingram is the admission from management that he's not going to be a #1 option.

He did take advantage of it. He chucked 3s like his name is Steph Curry. Him missing his shots isn't for a lack of effort. It's a lack of talent. It's up to management to identify the latter issue.

[Scase]

Why do we need all these excuses for him? He's not living up to expectations that most people had for him this year and that's on him. RJ has gotten better as a Raptor. Jak has gotten better as a Raptor. IQ has gotten better as a Raptor. Ochai has gotten better as a Raptor. Gradey has gotten better this year. You're here blaming management for his development but everyone else seems to be improving and developing just fine. These other guys seem to be taking well to whatever training regimen the team has them on, so why isn't Scottie?

Were you complaining about management's development plan last year or only this year when he's taken a backwards step? Did you have a problem with him shooting 3's when he had that 13 game run making them at over 40% on 2+ makes a game or only this year when he's back to being a complete brick layer? I think this is just a bunch of results oriented thinking acting like hindsight is so obvious that he wouldn't be able to shoot. The reason to develop his 3 point shooting should be obvious. The list of non shooting 5's that are elite offensive players is Zion and Giannis, Scottie isn't close to either in athleticism or even talent. Even LeBron added a 3 point shot despite being dominant getting to the rim. The chances of being a good offensive player without a passable 3 point shot are very low, seems to be common sense to me for them to prioritize the development of his shooting for him.

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

lol predictable that you would downplay any sort of improvement our players have made. Just complete nonsense when you say stuff like they didn't improve and only increased USG.

Since you're the expert on player development, what should Scottie have worked on to make the jump from what he built on last season as a scorer? What does he do well at an elite level that we could have him use more of that we didn't?

Downplaying? How are objectively accurate statements like players putting up the exact same stats downplaying? This is a running theme with you and literally every post of yours, someone disagrees and then all of a sudden something is overblown, overly negative, or some other outlandish complaint. I acknowledged both RJ and Ochai's improvements, it's not my fault you feel the need to overstate oither players.

Jak :
21-22 13.5/9.3/2.8 on 61.8/0/49.5 splits with 29mpg played
24-25 14.2/9.6/2.8 on 61.6/0/67.2 splits with 30mpg played

Wow what a leap he took, a whole 0.7PPG and 0.3TRB and playing an extra MPG. Holy **** plan the parade now, the development here is next level. Maybe I should've taken the 23-24 stats instead where he averaged 2.4PPG, 0.7TRB, and 0.3APG less than when he was in SAS? Where was the development there?

I guess that's just me downplaying stuff right? Not basic hard inarguable stats or anything. Is being openly wrong once enough for you, or should I do IQ as well?

As for Scottie, if the team tells you to take more 3's and you suck at 3's, how is that his fault exactly? They should have been focusing on his mid range and rim touches, and utilizing him as a point forward at the top of the key, I've been saying this for a while now.

Scottie has one elite skill, passing/court vision, that's it. He is a very bad shooter, and giving him a green light from 3 is just plain stupid.

[TakeYourHeart]

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

lol predictable that you would downplay any sort of improvement our players have made. Just complete nonsense when you say stuff like they didn't improve and only increased USG.

Since you're the expert on player development, what should Scottie have worked on to make the jump from what he built on last season as a scorer? What does he do well at an elite level that we could have him use more of that we didn't?

Downplaying? How are objectively accurate statements like players putting up the exact same stats downplaying? This is a running theme with you and literally every post of yours, someone disagrees and then all of a sudden something is overblown, overly negative, or some other outlandish complaint. I acknowledged both RJ and Ochai's improvements, it's not my fault you feel the need to overstate oither players.

Jak :
21-22 13.5/9.3/2.8 on 61.8/0/49.5 splits with 29mpg played
24-25 14.2/9.6/2.8 on 61.6/0/67.2 splits with 30mpg played

Wow what a leap he took, a whole 0.7PPG and 0.3TRB and playing an extra MPG. Holy **** plan the parade now, the development here is next level. Maybe I should've taken the 23-24 stats instead where he averaged 2.4PPG, 0.7TRB, and 0.3APG less than when he was in SAS? Where was the development there?

I guess that's just me downplaying stuff right? Not basic hard inarguable stats or anything. Is being openly wrong once enough for you, or should I do IQ as well?

As for Scottie, if the team tells you to take more 3's and you suck at 3's, how is that his fault exactly? They should have been focusing on his mid range and rim touches, and utilizing him as a point forward at the top of the key, I've been saying this for a while now.

Scottie has one elite skill, passing/court vision, that's it. He is a very bad shooter, and giving him a green light from 3 is just plain stupid.

49.5% to 67.2% free throw shooter. Like it's right there in your post.

[PushDaRock]

RJ has gotten slightly more efficient and given more attempts, that's it. IQ has not gotten better at all, all his stats are virtually identical, all that changed was his USG. Gradey was looking great early on, and then slipped into the same performance as before, Ochai was awful last year, and is better this year so that's good. Jak is playing literally identical to his last full season in SAS, nothing was "unlocked" here, he's having nothing more than a better year at the FT line, which is well into outlier territory being a 12% spike from the year before.

Take a look at RJ and Ochai, the two that improved the most (or at all), what changed? Oh would you look at that, they are being used more appropriately. Almost like the schemes, and the practice, and the development that is dictated by the team, had a direct impact to their performance. What a crazy concept.

Take a look at all the games this year where RJ was being used in the wrong situations or as a first option etc. He played poorly and inefficiently. Imagine that, being used correctly resulting in better performance. But I'm sure if we had Jak parked out at the 3p line bricking 7 3pa/g, that would be his fault right?

You put players in positions to succeed and they play better, you put them in positions of weakness and they play poorly. Scottie is a bad shooter, we have been trying to force him to be a good shooter, that's a stupid idea. Scottie is not a PG, we tried to make him a PG, that's a stupid idea.

Scottie isn't the one dictating what plays the team runs and learns in practice, he's not the one that tells the trainers what he should be practicing and so on. The team dictates that. If he is dogging it in practice, if he's not playing hard on the court, or anything that is effort based it's absolutely his fault. But it's not his fault when the coach is publicly saying they want him shooting 7 threes a game, despite him sucking as a shooter.

If I try and beat a skyline around a turn heavy track in a mustang, I'm going to lose. But if I go up against it in a drag race, I'll win. No one tries to hammer in a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, they just use a hammer. The players are tools, using them correctly is up to the team, we are using some players correctly, and for Scottie, they are trying to make himself into something he is not.

lol predictable that you would downplay any sort of improvement our players have made. Just complete nonsense when you say stuff like they didn't improve and only increased USG.

Since you're the expert on player development, what should Scottie have worked on to make the jump from what he built on last season as a scorer? What does he do well at an elite level that we could have him use more of that we didn't?

Downplaying? How are objectively accurate statements like players putting up the exact same stats downplaying? This is a running theme with you and literally every post of yours, someone disagrees and then all of a sudden something is overblown, overly negative, or some other outlandish complaint. I acknowledged both RJ and Ochai's improvements, it's not my fault you feel the need to overstate oither players.

Jak :
21-22 13.5/9.3/2.8 on 61.8/0/49.5 splits with 29mpg played
24-25 14.2/9.6/2.8 on 61.6/0/67.2 splits with 30mpg played

Wow what a leap he took, a whole 0.7PPG and 0.3TRB and playing an extra MPG. Holy **** plan the parade now, the development here is next level. Maybe I should've taken the 23-24 stats instead where he averaged 2.4PPG, 0.7TRB, and 0.3APG less than when he was in SAS? Where was the development there?

I guess that's just me downplaying stuff right? Not basic hard inarguable stats or anything. Is being openly wrong once enough for you, or should I do IQ as well?

As for Scottie, if the team tells you to take more 3's and you suck at 3's, how is that his fault exactly? They should have been focusing on his mid range and rim touches, and utilizing him as a point forward at the top of the key, I've been saying this for a while now.

Scottie has one elite skill, passing/court vision, that's it. He is a very bad shooter, and giving him a green light from 3 is just plain stupid.

lmao Jak literally having a career year and improving his FT shooting somehow doesn't count as improving? ok sure

Yes, go ahead and do IQ as well and show how his AST% has improved along with his overall production. But, nah for you it doesn't count because his USG went up lol

Scottie is shooting 47% from 10-16ft and 35% from 16ft+, how does focusing on a bunch of mid range jumpers help him? He's at 0.92 PPP on post-ups and in the 41st percentile, so it's not exactly a good idea to give him those either.

Again, were you telling him to stop shooting 3's last season when he was making 40% at 2+ makes per game? Were you also confident that Scottie was never going to develop into a good scorer before the season? Were you expecting him to shoot 26% from 3 this year? Nope, you weren't thinking those things. You just use the results to make everything seem obvious in hindsight as for why the management is dumb and didn't develop him properly. I mean good thing Siakam didn't read your historically poor 3 point shooter thread right, you would have had him stop shooting 3's since he was on a historic pace to be the worst of all time at it.

[Scase]

lol predictable that you would downplay any sort of improvement our players have made. Just complete nonsense when you say stuff like they didn't improve and only increased USG.

Since you're the expert on player development, what should Scottie have worked on to make the jump from what he built on last season as a scorer? What does he do well at an elite level that we could have him use more of that we didn't?

Downplaying? How are objectively accurate statements like players putting up the exact same stats downplaying? This is a running theme with you and literally every post of yours, someone disagrees and then all of a sudden something is overblown, overly negative, or some other outlandish complaint. I acknowledged both RJ and Ochai's improvements, it's not my fault you feel the need to overstate oither players.

Jak :
21-22 13.5/9.3/2.8 on 61.8/0/49.5 splits with 29mpg played
24-25 14.2/9.6/2.8 on 61.6/0/67.2 splits with 30mpg played

Wow what a leap he took, a whole 0.7PPG and 0.3TRB and playing an extra MPG. Holy **** plan the parade now, the development here is next level. Maybe I should've taken the 23-24 stats instead where he averaged 2.4PPG, 0.7TRB, and 0.3APG less than when he was in SAS? Where was the development there?

I guess that's just me downplaying stuff right? Not basic hard inarguable stats or anything. Is being openly wrong once enough for you, or should I do IQ as well?

As for Scottie, if the team tells you to take more 3's and you suck at 3's, how is that his fault exactly? They should have been focusing on his mid range and rim touches, and utilizing him as a point forward at the top of the key, I've been saying this for a while now.

Scottie has one elite skill, passing/court vision, that's it. He is a very bad shooter, and giving him a green light from 3 is just plain stupid.

lmao Jak literally having a career year and improving his FT shooting somehow doesn't count as improving? ok sure

Yes, go ahead and do IQ as well and show how his AST% has improved along with his overall production. But, nah for you it doesn't count because his USG went up lol

Scottie is shooting 47% from 10-16ft and 35% from 16ft+, how does focusing on a bunch of mid range jumpers help him? He's at 0.92 PPP on post-ups and in the 41st percentile, so it's not exactly a good idea to give him those either.

Again, were you telling him to stop shooting 3's last season when he was making 40% at 2+ makes per game? Were you also confident that Scottie was never going to develop into a good scorer before the season? Were you expecting him to shoot 26% from 3 this year? Nope, you weren't thinking those things. You just use the results to make everything seem obvious in hindsight as for why the management is dumb and didn't develop him properly. I mean good thing Siakam didn't read your historically poor 3 point shooter thread right, you would have had him stop shooting 3's since he was on a historic pace to be the worst of all time at it.

Literally the same stats as he had his last year in SAS, coupled with an outlier FT improvement. But sure, career year.

[tsherkin]

Literally the same stats as he had his last year in SAS, coupled with an outlier FT improvement. But sure, career year.

I mean, it's nice. It is also technically a career year. He IS presently setting career-highs in RPG, PPG at FT%, even if the first two aren't my huge margins and his rebounding rate isn't at a career-high.

Enjoy the moment, man. Just take the win; Poeltl's been playing well for us.

[Scase]

Literally the same stats as he had his last year in SAS, coupled with an outlier FT improvement. But sure, career year.

I mean, it's nice. It is also technically a career year. He IS presently setting career-highs in RPG, PPG at FT%, even if the first two aren't my huge margins and his rebounding rate isn't at a career-high.

Enjoy the moment, man. Just take the win; Poeltl's been playing well for us.

Sure, it's also a career year for highs in personal fouls, and turnovers should we be celebrating those too? No because it's a career high in USG and MPG, it's meaningless. More time on court = more stats, this isn't some revelation, he's not taken some magnificent step since being here, he's the exact same player he has been for years, but now with more time on the court.

His per 100 stats are either identical or worse than his stats in 19-20, except his points, cause well again, mo shats. I took no issue with acknowledging RJ and Ochais improvements, because those actually exist.

Nothing but his AST% and FT% are a career high, and the latter of which is such a large jump that it is most likely a sample size/outlier issue. His FTr is also the worst in his career, and by a pretty decent margin.

I'm all for celebrating wins, but I am not one for just cheering on disingenuous arguments to prove a flawed point. More time on court, and more FGA = more stats, this isn't some unknown discovery. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and deride RJ/DD or any other player that is a volume type player, and then turn around and celebrate another guy "doing better" because his volume is up across the board. Jaks entire improvement this year is due to an inflated FT% that is an 8% increase over his 2nd best year, and a 12% increase over his last year/career averages, which is a poster child for outlier, and an increase to MPG, that's it.

Same reason I didn't accept RJs performance in those 32 games when he got traded as gospel, anything that outside the norm is to be discarded until it shows a pattern. Or should we also start assuming Scottie is a 37% 3p shooter because he did it for a 30 game stretch?

Jak has been playing as well for us, as he did the Spurs, he's just playing more. Not better, not worse, the same, and that's absolutely fine. But I'm not going to celebrate an expected result.

[tsherkin]

Sure, it's also a career year for highs in personal fouls, and turnovers should we be celebrating those too?

Well, what's the goal?

Aggressively crapping on any hint of positivity, or looking for the silver lining?

No one's saying he's gonna be the next Hakeem or anything, but we're enjoying the improvement in his FT% and generally looking at him producing well. He's at a career-high 29.8 mpg, so some increase in production is normal and expected, but guys often regress with more time on the floor, so there's that to consider as well.

Ultimately, it's all about how much you wanna piss in someone's Cheerios, you know what I mean?

[Scase]

Sure, it's also a career year for highs in personal fouls, and turnovers should we be celebrating those too?

Well, what's the goal?

Aggressively crapping on any hint of positivity, or looking for the silver lining?

No one's saying he's gonna be the next Hakeem or anything, but we're enjoying the improvement in his FT% and generally looking at him producing well. He's at a career-high 29.8 mpg, so some increase in production is normal and expected, but guys often regress with more time on the floor, so there's that to consider as well.

Ultimately, it's all about how much you wanna piss in someone's Cheerios, you know what I mean?

Regression is not out of the ordinary for a significant increase, but 1mpg is not that. It's a minor step up, which coincides perfectly with his minor step up in production.

If we wanted to discuss how he's performing as well as expected with a slight increase in playing time, sure that's reasonable. But trying to call something a "career year" when his stats are up a fraction of a measurable point, that's a joke.

Is IQ having a career year too? I mean he's up 0.2ppg and 0.5ast, why aren't we cheering that on as well? I mean hell, he's done that on a reduction in MPG and the exact same FGA as last year. We aren't because it's not a notable amount. It diminishes the meaning of a "career year", now if we want to argue someone like RJ having a career year, I'm all aboard.

He's had a noticeable increase across the board on all his stats compared to both his career averages, and his 2nd highest performing year. This isn't about pissing in cheerios, it's about having honest discussions about our team and the performance of the players within.

Scottie is down 0.4ppg, 0.2ast, and 0.4rpg, hardly a monumental decrease right, it also happens to be less of a delta than Jaks improvement, yet everyone is (rightfully) expressing how bad of a year he's had.

What's the goal? To have an honest discussion, that's it, and there's nothing honest about claiming statistically irrelevant increases that would otherwise be ignored as rounding errors and painting it as some notable celebratory achievement. Yes, in the most technical sense it's an improvement, but so was our win rate when we traded for Jak, and we've gone 6-4 in our last 10, which is in stark contrast to the rest of the year. Those in a vacuum sound great, but when you inject context of a weak schedule/competition into it, it paints a different picture.

[tsherkin]

What's the goal? To have an honest discussion, that's it, and there's nothing honest about claiming statistically irrelevant increases that would otherwise be ignored as rounding errors and painting it as some notable celebratory achievement. Yes, in the most technical sense it's an improvement, but so was our win rate when we traded for Jak, and we've gone 6-4 in our last 10, which is in stark contrast to the rest of the year. Those in a vacuum sound great, but when you inject context of a weak schedule/competition into it, it paints a different picture.

And yet, aggressively pissing all over any optimism over a given player isn't super productive either.

Yak's having a good year. His FT% is encouraging, even if it doesn't necessarily mean he's suddenly o the path to becoming Dirk.

Sometimes, you gotta let people have their moment of joy. It's a recreational association to sport; it doesn't need a perpetual dose of harsh realism ALL the time.