Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[soboMP3]

Starting to see the writing on the wall. I've spent 21+ years on this team (and also a childhood in the 80s and early 90s), and got what I so desperately wanted in 2021. It was beautiful. Once Giannis goes, I will become a very casual observer of the NBA. Last night's game with the Butler foul baiting made me realize I really don't like the NBA much anymore.

[tedbrogen]

For this off-season, unless this team makes some sort of crazy run deep into the ECF or beyond, in my mind they have one of two options: try for a quick rebuild around Giannis or if Giannis doesn’t want to be part of that and asks out, tear it down and get as many young players/picks as possible. If either situation means taking back a bad player on a large contract like Fred, you do it to get the pieces that come with him.

After the inevitably first round exit, Doc should be gone.

[tedbrogen]

Hate on Horst all you want, some of it is deserved, but by all reports if he had his way Kenny Atkinson would be coaching this team.

Horst wanted Kenny and he tried the Liz Lemon and Pete Hornberger strategy of getting your guy hired by placing him in the final three with two candidates you thought the owners and Giannis would not choose in Nurse and Grief. Giannis hated Nurse, so that worked. But Giannis decided he liked the robot street performer, so they got Grief.

Then Doc slide into the owners’ DMs and did some “consulting” so he could tell them how awful Grief was and steal the job.

[BigO]

He’s a certified genius compared to Horst and has a good relationship with Giannis, could and probably will do a lot worse(step on up Doc!)

You don't have to convince me about replacing Horst.

Toronto has been a dumpster since losing Kawai. They were good the year after the championship and since then just horrible.

They had VanVliet, Anunoby and Siakam, each of whom were coveted by many posters on here. Since 2019-20, the Raptors have been very bad.

You want a Masai type rebuild that shows no signs of success after 5 years?

The problem in replacing people like coaches and GMs is trying to get someone better. I don't mind taking a chance on someone, but not someone who we know isn't good.

To be fair I don’t think Masai would be so conservative if he had Giannis to build around versus Scottie Barnes. It’s all relative, we have FedEx man right now and Doc being promoted to save face is probably the next thing.

The relationship with Giannis is important since we’re going to have to blow up the team and Im not **** trading Giannis.

Shoot Horst into the sun

He had Siakam and Anunoby to build around and he failed. He then got rid of them and it looks like the rebuild, if it happens, will take many more years.

[BigO]

Coaching change is just part of it, need a roster that fits together. Too old, too low IQ, too many guys who get targeted on D. Bringing the same team back next year with a different coach won’t be any better.

Can I give you 15 plus ones for your post?

I just hope we don't have pages of talk about a new coach, when that is the least of the Buck's problems.

The problem is the roster guys and gals. There really seems to be posters who think Kenny Atkinson could have taken the Bucks a lot farther.

Teams win first and foremosot because of players/talent. And talent is gotten by the general manager.

And any new GM will be faced with a roster of only two really good players and maybe one or two decent ones, with no really good young talent. And little cap space and few draft choices.

[German Athens]

Would you guys rather have FVV or Jalen Green part of a package for Dame?

[Profound23]

Would you guys rather have FVV or Jalen Green part of a package for Dame?

Both

[RiotPunch]

Since we missed out on Kenny, what about his associate head coach? Johnnie Bryant has now been an assistant under Snyder, associate head coach under Thibs, and now associate head coach under Kenny. Just 39 years old, but smart and gritty. Lillard has worked with him in the past, so I'm sure he would be on board.

Found a cool clip of him talking about Cavs' spacing, body movement, and using what the defense thinks they are defending against them:
https://youtu.be/osY0NWe4M0w?si=HRtIXctSwtFcIENL&t=436

[paulpressey25]

Would you guys rather have FVV or Jalen Green part of a package for Dame?

If Jalen, then you aren’t getting near as much in other assets. I’d take one year of FVV plus more extras.

[German Athens]

Would you guys rather have FVV or Jalen Green part of a package for Dame?

Both

This isn’t both to us, but both get sent out:

Mke out: Dame,
Mke in: Jalen Green, Reed Sheppard, Oso, Royce, Micic

Phx out: KD, Royce, Micic, Oso
Phx in: FVV, Jabari Smith, Holiday, 2 Hou 1sts

Hou out: FVV, Jalen, Jabari, Reed, Holiday, 2 1sts
Hou in: KD, Dame

Why for us?
We get a young player with a perimeter skillset who isn’t a winning player yet, but could be due for his breakout. We get two rookies - one with pedigree who would fit us well (mistake free, flamethrower from outside, and nose for the ball defensively), and the other has size and processing speed at a position of need.

Beyond the young guys, Royce is a capable vet and Micic is expiring salary.

Why for Houston?
Theres been plenty of trade proposals with them landing KD this off-season, but why go half-in particularly if you don’t view Jalen green as a core piece?

They get the two best players in the deal while keeping their sengun, Thompson, Eason core intact. They also keep cam and have plenty of 1sts still at their disposal.

Why for Phoenix?
They get a defensive POA player in FVV who’s an actual PG to help now, as well as a backup. They also get a young player with pedigree at a position they would need if they want to get a better fitting team with Booker.

Beyond that they get a couple 1sts - maybe their picks back - and they get all the way under the second apron.


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[Baddy Chuck]

I have no idea what was available, what teams wanted who or any insight on the teams workings but I have to believe something better could have been done with the roster.

We took a swing on Dame later in the offseason, fair enough, not a ton of time to make the moves there most likely. Griffin tried to "modernize" the gameplan but with the roster he had it was pretty apparent that the changes he wanted to make weren't going to happen. We go into the season having Malik Beasley as our defensive stopper, we had Brook and Bobby masquerading as mobile/modern bigs and the defense was collapsing. 22nd in the NBA by the time Griffin was gone. During that time though what kept us afloat was being 2nd in offensive rating.

Doc came in and while we did find some more success defensively (up to 14th DRTG) largely going back to the "obvious" things with the roster, like Brook just being a drop defender, our offense went down the drain to 18th league wide. Some things could be attributed to that like Middleton's injuries, Beasley falling off a cliff shooting wise, etc but that's an insane swing. A swing that is still carried over to this season (15th) while the defense has seen a slight uptick to #10.

A lot has been said about loser Dame and his on/off during what statistically has been a much better season than last year. Last season his on/off was better than Giannis'. The team was able to keep afloat with him on the court defensively and even "thrived" at times despite the personnel around him. Maybe you choose to believe that this one season was a fluke, maybe you believe that Dame somehow just became an absolute boat anchor, I'd tend to believe the changes put in place have not done our star any favors, much like how Griffin came in and alienated Brook etc in the gameplan. Doc is just Kidd with hairplugs and a super team ring.

After the playoff "collapse", where without Giannis we saw a ton of issues arise in areas that everyone knew were problems we heard all the keywords about how they were looking to modernize the team, look at mobile bigs, get Dame help on the perimeter etc.

Again, I have no idea what was all on the table but I truly think we had things to play with. We had Bobby off a 6MOTY campaign, Brook a year removed from his DPOTY campaign, a first round pick, a high second, another future first in the glass case for something cool. If you wanted to plug holes and change the roster, I would think there was ample opportunity to do it. If you were so scared of the apron, that could have been a good time to float Pat or something with those picks to try and duck it. Understandably the aprons and trade restrictions hampered potential deals but I would think a smart front office could find ways around that, again, truly think we had enough ammo in the chamber to at least make an attempt to revamp the team around the new look.

We wen't out and did absolutely nothing at the big spots, our Bealsey substitutes turned out to be Gary Trent Jr and Taurean Prince who while fine minimum players havent provided the team any cushion defensively to cover up shortcomings of a guy like Dame. They did go out and get a defensive journey man in Wright who could barely beat out Semi Ojeleye for the worst Milwaukee Buck of the decade. Our picks turned into 2 as green as they come players. We fell back on our 2 bigs that caused problems before, our Dame counterpart was handed over to a second year spaz who has since found himself out of the rotation completely. Our big splash was trading probably the backbone of the team, albeit one that has been beaten down for a few years, for a Shaqtin a fool all-star while keeping all the the same problems we had before and fitting his square peg into the to round hole left by Middleton for the sake of "flexibility and availability".

The team identified issues and did absolutely nothing to fix them. Some of the bandaid fixes liek KPJ and Sims have shown us a lot of what people have been clamoring for could work out, especially if scaled at a higher quality. I think the same would be seen in other spots (defensive wing, small ball four, mobile big etc) had we really went out and got it done. But we didn't. And now were left sitting on our hands with our draft capital gone, two big contributors who were assets to whatever level you want to agree on going into free agency, our stars value depreciating due to mismanage and one of them being shipped out completely.

I'm not one to believe a Dame for parts trade makes us better really. Maybe you could parlay it into a longer term strategy of getting Giannis back to the top in a few years like the Warriors did following their dynasty run but there's a lot of risk that Giannis will be this guy at upwards of 37 like Steph is still doing, that we field the perfect roster around him to make it work, luck into good picks, Giannis not getting frustrated and bolting and the right players being available at the right time etc but it seems like a lot. There's an off chance that because he is playing so well statistically that teams will look at him and find him good enough where we could work in a "win now" trade for Dame but I also think there's just as easily a chance that we could find our own way to "win now" with him on the roster.

TL:DR - Oof.

[Profound23]

Heat fans are souring on Bam.

Offer Dame/Kuzma/whatever picks possible for Bam/Herro.

Miami laughs at us, but still make the offer.

[Plossum]

It’s blow it up time.

We are checkmated. Giannis is our only trade asset of significance, we have little draft capital and no salary cap.

Change the coach if you want but this isn’t a Jackson/Kerr situation. We could be better but I doubt there’s a coach out there that raises the second round playoff ceiling of this squad.

I think we’ve gone as far as we can. The FO and ownership have made a lot of mistakes, but at least they’ve had a go at trying to make this work.

I realise the above is all fantasy. The Bucks will never trade Giannis unless he asks out and I’m fine with that. But I think we’ll need to accept we’re prob not going to build another contender around him. We don’t have time to invest in a youth rebuild around him (nor do we even have the assets or draft capital to do this), we don’t have cap space to sign any meaningful FAs, and we don’t have the personnel/draft capital to make any significant trades (Dame wouldn’t bring back enough imo).

My Bucks depression is high but I don’t think I’m wrong.

[blazza18]

There is a path to getting back to being a true contender again but man it's going to take getting a lot of things right in the offseason. Hard to see that happening.

[Plossum]

What is that path do you think?

[German Athens]

Memphis is in an interesting spot. They are still pretty young, but they’ve now been trying to contend for multiple seasons and have come up short.

The rumors that they were sniffing around Jimmy seems to indicate that they want to take a bigger swing to improve, and I have to imagine they’re looking at moving Bane.

We should target him. He’s like the guard proxy of Khris - not in play style - but cerebral nature and impact.

Memphis gets KD
Phoenix gets assets from Memphis and Dame
Milwaukee gets Bane


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[blazza18]

What is that path do you think?

It wont be easy but they need to identify smarter people to put around the organisation. They have to hire the right GM & coach and start from there.

[Be Here Now]

At the same time, our current perception of Dame's value is different (higher) than where the league's perception will be come June (unless Dame does great in the playoffs). We're sort of in a Durant/Suns type position here.

I don't think this is the case at all actually. I love Giannis - I'll roll with him until he wants out but he is very hard to play with and I don't think he makes others around him better. I don't even think it's debatable at this point.

We went out and added Dame because our half court offense in the playoffs was stagnant and yet here we are, still stagnant. Now part of this is due to coaching and the overall talent of the roster. But look at Dame's stats in games Giannis has sat - they are phenomenal. I think there are plenty of teams (HOU, MIN, OKC, LAL, LAC, SAC) that may decide Dame is a worthy addition to their core. I think his value should be huge. He's in great shape physically, playing a ton of minutes per game at similar averages to when he was in his prime. Great locker room guy too.

The real problem has been keeping Horst too long. In a way its a lot like the Packers sticking with McCarthy for about 4 years too long and needlessly shortening your championship window by having the wrong guy in an important role. Still can't believe he has a job after leaking he wanted Atkinson while our season was still ongoing.

[paulpressey25]

TL:DR - Oof.

I read it all.

We’re a lot like Cleveland in the first LeBron era. You don’t want LeBron to leave but have no assets to get real help. And LeBron keeps wanting input into coaching and personnel. So you keep rearranging the deck chairs.

[ReasonablySober]

Some teams will talk themselves into Dame. I'm not worried about that.