Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[paulpressey25]

At the same time, our current perception of Dame's value is different (higher) than where the league's perception will be come June (unless Dame does great in the playoffs). We're sort of in a Durant/Suns type position here.

I don't think this is the case at all actually. I love Giannis - I'll roll with him until he wants out but he is very hard to play with and I don't think he makes others around him better. I don't even think it's debatable at this point.

Agree the Giannis/Dame pairing doesn’t work. The chemistry isn’t there and they play better apart.

But I think the hard part we’ve learned with Dame is he’s not a natural distributor. Even with Giannis out there with him, he needs to be able to get the ball across the court and make more happen via driving and passing. When the defenses really tighten on him, we’re left with 30 foot moonshots.

[paulpressey25]

Some teams will talk themselves into Dame. I'm not worried about that.

Many teams would love Dame. But what are the assets and matching salaries that work? Which teams?

I’d like to start a Dame TI thread but know many of the other guys on here would flip out.

[ReasonablySober]

Some teams will talk themselves into Dame. I'm not worried about that.

Many teams would love Dame. But what are the assets and matching salaries that work? Which teams?

I’d like to start a Dame TI thread but know many of the other guys on here would flip out.

Vanfleet is the one that immediately comes to mind. Lillard and Green for FVF and Smith works.

[JayMKE]

Disappointing as the results have been here I'm fairly confident Dame could still be a 30ppg scorer if he was the #1 option elsewhere, can't tell me that's worth nothing. The stingy ass tanking weirdos on RGM who won't trade a late 1st for any veteran player ever aren't representative, they are just dumb.

idk how long it would take to build a true contender around Giannis for a 2nd time but I am totally confident in saying its not risking much at this point, Giannis getting pissed and wanting out is the only real concern. Really wish there was an easy hire at GM and coach, would make the direction you want the team to go in a lot more clear.

[MickeyDavis]

Some teams will talk themselves into Dame. I'm not worried about that.

Many teams would love Dame. But what are the assets and matching salaries that work? Which teams?

I’d like to start a Dame TI thread but know many of the other guys on here would flip out.

After we get bounced in round 1

[Baddy Chuck]

TL:DR - Oof.

I read it all.

We’re a lot like Cleveland in the first LeBron era. You don’t want LeBron to leave but have no assets to get real help. And LeBron keeps wanting input into coaching and personnel. So you keep rearranging the deck chairs.

As I said in my post I think we were in a position even without touching Dame/Giannis/Khris to field a roster the last few deadlines/offseason, currently I'm not sure where it comes from so the tear down/complete retool is probably needed. One of those chairs already got thrown overboard and replaced with a couch cushion. The Cavs comparison is probably right. I get the on/off stuff and the belief that we'd be champions replacing Dame with Ryan Rollins and his great on/off but I think we're going to be pretty hard pressed to try and stay get more competitive if we go that route. As much as I love the kid, Giannis isn't LeBron carrying Kevin Porter Jr and Jericho Sims to 60 wins and finals trips, especially in todays league. If Dame brings in true talent in a trade, and I really don't think FVV and Jabari Smith move that needle, maybe we could field a competitive roster but otherwise I think we'll be somewhere middling where we are or worse.

The outcomes that presents are pretty bleak IMO. You somehow get Giannis on board for a multi year rebuild, pray to god picks and prospects you get pan out, hit on all your free agent signings and hope Giannis is still Giannis when it all settles. If Jabari Smith, Tari Eason, Anthony Black or whoever become the guy(s) we want next to Giannis, ya look great. If they're just more B/C tier role players who "fit" better you're out of luck. Or you do the unthinkable and just blow it up completely and start from scratch.

[randy84]

At the same time, our current perception of Dame's value is different (higher) than where the league's perception will be come June (unless Dame does great in the playoffs). We're sort of in a Durant/Suns type position here.

I don't think this is the case at all actually. I love Giannis - I'll roll with him until he wants out but he is very hard to play with and I don't think he makes others around him better. I don't even think it's debatable at this point.

Agree the Giannis/Dame pairing doesn’t work. The chemistry isn’t there and they play better apart.

But I think the hard part we’ve learned with Dame is he’s not a natural distributor. Even with Giannis out there with him, he needs to be able to get the ball across the court and make more happen via driving and passing. When the defenses really tighten on him, we’re left with 30 foot moonshots.

Isn't Dame 9th in the league in assists per game? Probably would be higher if guys could hit wide open shots.

[paulpressey25]

Isn't Dame 9th in the league in assists per game? Probably would be higher if guys could hit wide open shots.

This is where raw stats can be misleading.

Greivis Vasquez lead the league in assists in the 2012-13 season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_totals.html#totals_stats::ast

[randy84]

Isn't Dame 9th in the league in assists per game? Probably would be higher if guys could hit wide open shots.

This is where raw stats can be misleading.

Greivis Vasquez lead the league in assists in the 2012-13 season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_totals.html#totals_stats::ast

Actually Rondo and Chris Paul led the league in assists per game that year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba/sort/avgAssists/year/2013

But not sure how assist stats are misleading. Either he had an assist or he didn't.

[paulpressey25]

Actually Rondo and Chris Paul led the league in assists per game that year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba/sort/avgAssists/year/2013

But not sure how assist stats are misleading. Either he had an assist or he didn't.

We're splitting hairs. Greivis had the most total assists. The other two bested him in APG.

The Pels that year were 27-55. Again, believe that raw stats, whether PPG, APG or RPG don't tell the whole story. Otherwise Michael Cage, Monta Ellis and Greivis would have been in the running for a lot of postseason awards.

The question is does the player make others around him better? Early career Dame probably can make that argument, although those Blazer teams had more talent than one might think. But for whatever reason, we've all watched 2024-25 Dame struggle hard to run an offense against good defenses. Yes, he can cut up a crap team with slow guards. But this is not the player we hoped we were acquiring.

[randy84]

Actually Rondo and Chris Paul led the league in assists per game that year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba/sort/avgAssists/year/2013

But not sure how assist stats are misleading. Either he had an assist or he didn't.

We're splitting hairs. Greivis had the most total assists. The other two bested him in APG.

The Pels that year were 27-55. Again, believe that raw stats, whether PPG, APG or RPG don't tell the whole story. Otherwise Michael Cage, Monta Ellis and Greivis would have been in the running for a lot of postseason awards.

The question is does the player make others around him better? Early career Dame probably can make that argument, although those Blazer teams had more talent than one might think. But for whatever reason, we've all watched 2024-25 Dame struggle hard to run an offense against good defenses. Yes, he can cut up a crap team with slow guards. But this is not the player we hoped we were acquiring.

I think the difference is you blame Dame for the Bucks poor play. I have about 5 other players, a head coach, and a front office that I would blame before I get to Dame.

[Baddy Chuck]

Actually Rondo and Chris Paul led the league in assists per game that year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba/sort/avgAssists/year/2013

But not sure how assist stats are misleading. Either he had an assist or he didn't.

We're splitting hairs. Greivis had the most total assists. The other two bested him in APG.

The Pels that year were 27-55. Again, believe that raw stats, whether PPG, APG or RPG don't tell the whole story. Otherwise Michael Cage, Monta Ellis and Greivis would have been in the running for a lot of postseason awards.

The question is does the player make others around him better? Early career Dame probably can make that argument, although those Blazer teams had more talent than one might think. But for whatever reason, we've all watched 2024-25 Dame struggle hard to run an offense against good defenses. Yes, he can cut up a crap team with slow guards. But this is not the player we hoped we were acquiring.

I think the difference is you blame Dame for the Bucks poor play. I have about 5 other players, a head coach, and a front office that I would blame before I get to Dame.

Understand the argument of "making others better" but Dame vs top 9 defenses (Bucks #10):

26.33 PPG, 61.03% TS%, 6.05 APG, 3.2 TO

I mean......

[rilamann]

Some teams will talk themselves into Dame. I'm not worried about that.

The bad thing about Dame for us is that he's grossly overrated,

The great thing about Dame for us is that he's grossly overrated.

[rilamann]

I’d like to start a Dame TI thread but know many of the other guys on here would flip out.

Tell me about it.




For some reason Dame is one of those guys who is overrated and for whatever reason, is above any criticism among a large section of people. Not just on here, but nationally.

I think I sarcastically joked last season that if the Bucks lost in the 1st round of the playoffs and Dame shot 35% from the field while not even trying on defense in the series, the narrative (nationally) after the series would something like The Bucks better get it together or Dame will demand a trade or Even Dame couldn't solve the Buck's problems.

[paulpressey25]

Some teams will talk themselves into Dame. I'm not worried about that.

The bad thing about Dame for us is that he's grossly overrated,

The great thing about Dame for us is that he's grossly overrated.

It's going to come down to the playoffs. Am willing to entertain the idea that he's got a 2nd gear he doesn't use in the regular season.

[Plossum]

I wonder if in hindsight we should’ve dangled Dame to the Kings for Fox once he became available. Dame is a better player but I wonder if Fox would’ve better suited the way we should play, which is push the pace and get out fast in transition wherever possible.

But we’ll never know.

[Dick Tate]

Since when have you needed a separate thread?

[Dick Tate]

Disappointing as the results have been here I'm fairly confident Dame could still be a 30ppg scorer if he was the #1 option elsewhere, can't tell me that's worth nothing. The stingy ass tanking weirdos on RGM who won't trade a late 1st for any veteran player ever aren't representative, they are just dumb.

idk how long it would take to build a true contender around Giannis for a 2nd time but I am totally confident in saying its not risking much at this point, Giannis getting pissed and wanting out is the only real concern. Really wish there was an easy hire at GM and coach, would make the direction you want the team to go in a lot more clear.

Your “only real concern” would seem to negate your total confidence.

[randy84]

So I guess I am unclear how Dame is suppose to "elevate" the game of guys like Ajax, AJ Green, and Prince. I mean I believe Giannis is having one of his best statistical seasons so I guess you could say Dame elevated his game. Even LeBron and AD couldn't "elevate" Prince's game.

We can talk about Dame's defense all you want, but everyone who knows basketball knew he wasn't going to be prime Jrue. A good GM would probably have made it a priority to get a good defensive SG next to him to help him out. Instead it was Beasley, Prince and GTJ with the hope that Ajax would not be a complete negative on offense. I mean no way would I pin my championship dreams on Prince and Ajax starting SG.

I have no problem trading Dame, but tell me what the deal is. If it is Fred Van Vleet and Tari Eason then we are no closer to a championship than we are with him. De'aaron Fox would have been a half a season rental, so who else is there? I would be all for an OKC George/SGA trade. But who is the young and upcoming guy and is Giannis willing to wait to contend again.

If I am Giannis and Khris is gone, Brook is gone, Dame is gone, GTJ is gone, and Bobby's gone, why would I want to stay around, for Patty C?

For good or bad, Dame represents Giannis last hope for a shot at title with the Bucks. If you get rid of him, then you better bring in more than Fred Van Vleet and Tari Eason, otherwise Giannis will want to move on with the rest of them.

[ShootingtheJ]

Prime Dame + Stotts' heavy pick & roll scheme was an automatic Top-5 offense for years and he's only been a Top-10 usage guy three times in his whole career. What are we doing here?

Did prime Dame struggle to get the ball up the court versus simple man to man full court pressure? Dame is 34, he's not the same guy. All he is now is a foul grifting scoring guard. He's an overhyped 6th man. Non existent defender. A short SG.