RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[lessthanjake]

That’s pretty much all true, but Steph is also *dramatically* better at the game’s most fundamental skill (i.e. shooting).

Why is shooting the most fundamental skill in basketball? That's completely random assumption.

I don’t think this is a particularly controversial statement. It’s called “shooting hoops” for a reason. But me calling it “the most fundamental skill” is not actually substantively important to the point I was making—which is just that obviously Steph is dramatically better at shooting and that that’s a giant elephant in the room if one is trying to list attributes that LeBron is better than Steph at. If you think something else is “the most fundamental skill”—dribbling might be another contender for that—it doesn’t negate the point I was making in any material way.

[70sFan]

That’s pretty much all true, but Steph is also *dramatically* better at the game’s most fundamental skill (i.e. shooting).

Why is shooting the most fundamental skill in basketball? That's completely random assumption.

I don’t think this is a particularly controversial statement. It’s called “shooting hoops” for a reason. But me calling it “the most fundamental skill” is not actually substantively important to the point I was making—which is just that obviously Steph is dramatically better at shooting and that that’s a giant elephant in the room if one is trying to list attributes that LeBron is better than Steph at. If you think something else is “the most fundamental skill”—dribbling might be another contender for that—it doesn’t negate the point I was making in any material way.

Well, it is very controversial to me. I don't know why shooting must be more "fundamental" than passing, ball-handling, shot locking etc. There are plenty of great players who couldn't shoot at all, so it's not really that fundamental to be a decent shooter.

I agree that Curry is a better shooter than James, that doesn't make him a better overall player though. I don't care about this discussion though, no James discussion on this board is interesting.

[zimpy27]

What star became better with LeBron? Definitely not Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, or Love.

Let’s look at this a couple ways.

First, let’s go to the NBArapm website and look at the RAPM for these guys in years with and without LeBron. Kyrie’s three-year RAPM in 2015-17 was +1.8. It has been higher (and often by a lot) in all but one three-year span after that. Kevin Love’s four-year RAPM in 2015-18 was +3.1. It was higher in the four-year span just before he played with LeBron, and it was higher in the next couple years afterwards too. In fact, that specific four-year span was his worst four-year RAPM span in his prime. Chris Bosh’s four-year RAPM in his years with LeBron was a good bit lower than it had been in his pre-Miami years. And the same is certainly true for Dwyane Wade. Even Anthony Davis had a higher five-year RAPM in the five years before he joined LeBron than in the five years with LeBron (though this one was actually close—reflecting the often-held view that this was the least bad fit for a star with LeBron). In other words, every major star to play with LeBron had lower impact in their years with LeBron than they did in other years.

Second, let’s look instead at the years they played with LeBron and see how impactful these guys were in the minutes they played with LeBron compared to the minutes without him. Specifically, let’s take the minutes these teams played with LeBron and see what the team’s net rating was in the minutes with the other star, compared to what it was in minutes without the star. That indicates what the player’s on-off was in LeBron’s minutes. And then let’s do the same in non-LeBron minutes, to get these players’ on-off in non-LeBron minutes. We can then compare them, and see whether their on-off was better in LeBron’s minutes or in non-LeBron minutes. What do we find? Well, for Kyrie from 2015-2017, his on-off in LeBron minutes was only +0.19, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +9.73. For Love from 2015-2018, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +3.56, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.15. For Bosh from 2011-2014, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +5.36, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +8.37. For Wade from 2011-2014, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +5.27, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.36. For Anthony Davis from 2020-2025, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +1.16, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.42. In other words, every major star LeBron has played with has had worse impact with LeBron on the floor than with LeBron off the floor.

Just to tie this together, what do we see here? Well, in the years Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Wade, and Davis played with LeBron, they all had more impact when LeBron was off the court than when LeBron was on the court. And they also all had more impact in other timeframes than they did in their years with LeBron. It’s basically not debatable that star players’ impact went down with LeBron.

That happens with all star players though. What you are talking about is adaptation to a reduced role when playing with a greater player.

You seem to think this is a LeBron trait when it's common to all great offensive players. There is only one ball.

LeBron also had a dip with Miami. Everyone had a dip. One ball.

It is common to have lower box score stats, but a star having lower impact with a great offensive player is really not necessarily the case. You’re right that it’s definitely sometimes the case for other players. For example, Durant had a slightly lesser on-off in Steph minutes than in non-Steph minutes (though not by a lot). But there are plenty of instances of the opposite. For instance, from 2014-2025, Draymond has had a +7.03 on-off in Steph minutes, and a +4.61 on-off in non-Steph minutes. From 2021-2025, Murray has had a +4.12 on-off in Jokic minutes and a +0.95 on-off in non-Jokic minutes. Jokic hasn’t played with enough stars to have another example of a star, but FWIW, Gordon has a +3.24 on-off in Jokic minutes, and a +2.02 on-off in non-Jokic minutes. Shawn Marion had a +7.10 on-off in Nash minutes, and a +0.52 on-off in non-Nash minutes. While Amare had a better on-off in non-Nash minutes if we look at all their years together, it’s worth noting that Amare’s on-off was better in Nash minutes in their first four years together. And FWIW, while we only have a limited set of impact data from the 1990s (i.e. it only starts in 1997), we also know that Pippen’s RAPM was *way* better in his last couple years with Chicago than it was after that—his RAPM took an immediate massive tumble when he left Chicago.

So yeah, while you’re right that the effect I described with LeBron is definitely not rare, it’s definitely very possible for a secondary star’s impact to be magnified by a superstar. And we should celebrate that when it happens. It’s actually a huge part of what allows teams to reach the highest of heights and/or be better than the sum of their parts. LeBron has never shown himself able to magnify another star’s impact like that. And the stat you had posted to argue in LeBron’s favor is partially just reflective of that.

Why are you switching between one-off and RAPM?

Now you're talking about players playing one-off on same team. What were the numbers for LeBron's teammates when you do that? If you go through it seems like LeBron does make them all better.

Whether it was Wade-Bosh-Lebron or Love-Kyrie-Lebron, all teammates had better net rating with LeBron. In the instance of Love and Bosh, both struggled with Kyrie and Wade actually, not with LeBron.

[lessthanjake]

That happens with all star players though. What you are talking about is adaptation to a reduced role when playing with a greater player.

You seem to think this is a LeBron trait when it's common to all great offensive players. There is only one ball.

LeBron also had a dip with Miami. Everyone had a dip. One ball.

It is common to have lower box score stats, but a star having lower impact with a great offensive player is really not necessarily the case. You’re right that it’s definitely sometimes the case for other players. For example, Durant had a slightly lesser on-off in Steph minutes than in non-Steph minutes (though not by a lot). But there are plenty of instances of the opposite. For instance, from 2014-2025, Draymond has had a +7.03 on-off in Steph minutes, and a +4.61 on-off in non-Steph minutes. From 2021-2025, Murray has had a +4.12 on-off in Jokic minutes and a +0.95 on-off in non-Jokic minutes. Jokic hasn’t played with enough stars to have another example of a star, but FWIW, Gordon has a +3.24 on-off in Jokic minutes, and a +2.02 on-off in non-Jokic minutes. Shawn Marion had a +7.10 on-off in Nash minutes, and a +0.52 on-off in non-Nash minutes. While Amare had a better on-off in non-Nash minutes if we look at all their years together, it’s worth noting that Amare’s on-off was better in Nash minutes in their first four years together. And FWIW, while we only have a limited set of impact data from the 1990s (i.e. it only starts in 1997), we also know that Pippen’s RAPM was *way* better in his last couple years with Chicago than it was after that—his RAPM took an immediate massive tumble when he left Chicago.

So yeah, while you’re right that the effect I described with LeBron is definitely not rare, it’s definitely very possible for a secondary star’s impact to be magnified by a superstar. And we should celebrate that when it happens. It’s actually a huge part of what allows teams to reach the highest of heights and/or be better than the sum of their parts. LeBron has never shown himself able to magnify another star’s impact like that. And the stat you had posted to argue in LeBron’s favor is partially just reflective of that.

Why are you switching between one-off and RAPM?

Now you're talking about players playing one-off on same team. What were the numbers for LeBron's teammates when you do that? If you go through it seems like LeBron does make them all better.

Whether it was Wade-Bosh-Lebron or Love-Kyrie-Lebron, all teammates had better net rating with LeBron. In the instance of Love and Bosh, both struggled with Kyrie and Wade actually, not with LeBron.

Umm, I would think it is obvious that the teams would have better net ratings with LeBron than without LeBron, because LeBron himself is quite good at basketball. The idea that the players having a better net rating with LeBron shows that LeBron “does make them all better” is obviously silly. The question is not whether LeBron being on a team makes the team do better. Obviously, the answer to that is yes. The question is whether he nevertheless diminishes the impact of other stars with him. That’s why I’m looking at their on-off with LeBron vs. their on-off without LeBron. That goes to the question of how his presence affects their impact in the years they were on the same team. RAPM goes to the related question of how impactful they were overall in their years with LeBron vs. years without LeBron. So those go to subtly different inquiries that both ultimately get at the same question of how LeBron affects their impact. And in all cases, it looks like they have more impact without LeBron than with LeBron. There’s a pretty obvious conclusion to take from this.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Chris Bosh, Kevin Love, and Dwyane Wade have skill sets where their impact shrinks as they aren't #1 options and the best players on 40-45 win teams, which they all were before playing with LeBron James.

The same is true for all players of their skill set, especially when put next to someone like LeBron James, who soaks up possessions on great teams.

This is why the Jordan Bulls were so awesome to watch and are the hallmark of teams building through the draft. Horace and Pippen were able to grow with and next to Jordan, craft their games in a way that complimented each other, and achieve greatness as they grew together. In a way, it's a lot like OKC right now with SGA/JDub/Chet, where on paper, they fit perfectly, and in practice, they fit perfectly. The Jordan/Horace/Pippen trio was similar, and all +/- and other impact data we have from that era (limited, but plenty of tracking data exists through the proper channels) shows all three players having an incredible impact.

Unfortunately, with the Free Agency era and play movement era, players move around more often, and ownership operates on a shorter timetable with the ability to make trades and dip into free agency.

The other unfortunate thing for LeBron and Wilt compared to Jordan/Russell/Curry/Magic/Kareem/Shaq/Duncan/Shaq is the latter were with teams and players, early in their careers, who were great fits on paper with them and played with ATG players.

It's telling when once LeBron and Wilt were with coaches capable of winning titles and casts capable of winning titles, and they won immediately (Within 2-3 years). In my long time watching and following basketball for 40+ years, all of these players could have been GOATs in the right circumstances, and ultimately, it is circumstances, more so than actual ability or talent, that sets them apart.

These GOAT debates become a brain drain, emotionally fueled discussion when you start arguing about RAPM of teammates without providing fair and objective context. I get it, LeBron James or Michael Jordan is your saint and can do no wrong. But the same people in this thread keep coming in with their high school debate approaches, and it gets really tiring. At least its better than Bill Simmons.

[michaelm]

What star became better with LeBron? Definitely not Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, or Love.

Let’s look at this a couple ways.

First, let’s go to the NBArapm website and look at the RAPM for these guys in years with and without LeBron. Kyrie’s three-year RAPM in 2015-17 was +1.8. It has been higher (and often by a lot) in all but one three-year span after that. Kevin Love’s four-year RAPM in 2015-18 was +3.1. It was higher in the four-year span just before he played with LeBron, and it was higher in the next couple years afterwards too. In fact, that specific four-year span was his worst four-year RAPM span in his prime. Chris Bosh’s four-year RAPM in his years with LeBron was a good bit lower than it had been in his pre-Miami years. And the same is certainly true for Dwyane Wade. Even Anthony Davis had a higher five-year RAPM in the five years before he joined LeBron than in the five years with LeBron (though this one was actually close—reflecting the often-held view that this was the least bad fit for a star with LeBron). In other words, every major star to play with LeBron had lower impact in their years with LeBron than they did in other years.

Second, let’s look instead at the years they played with LeBron and see how impactful these guys were in the minutes they played with LeBron compared to the minutes without him. Specifically, let’s take the minutes these teams played with LeBron and see what the team’s net rating was in the minutes with the other star, compared to what it was in minutes without the star. That indicates what the player’s on-off was in LeBron’s minutes. And then let’s do the same in non-LeBron minutes, to get these players’ on-off in non-LeBron minutes. We can then compare them, and see whether their on-off was better in LeBron’s minutes or in non-LeBron minutes. What do we find? Well, for Kyrie from 2015-2017, his on-off in LeBron minutes was only +0.19, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +9.73. For Love from 2015-2018, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +3.56, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.15. For Bosh from 2011-2014, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +5.36, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +8.37. For Wade from 2011-2014, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +5.27, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.36. For Anthony Davis from 2020-2025, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +1.16, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.42. In other words, every major star LeBron has played with has had worse impact with LeBron on the floor than with LeBron off the floor.

Just to tie this together, what do we see here? Well, in the years Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Wade, and Davis played with LeBron, they all had more impact when LeBron was off the court than when LeBron was on the court. And they also all had more impact in other timeframes than they did in their years with LeBron. It’s basically not debatable that star players’ impact went down with LeBron.

That happens with all star players though. What you are talking about is adaptation to a reduced role when playing with a greater player.

You seem to think this is a LeBron trait when it's common to all great offensive players. There is only one ball.

LeBron also had a dip with Miami. Everyone had a dip. One ball.

This is where efficiency really helps. There is a penalty applied to a group of great players playing with one ball. But the penalty is not as high in comparison to another group with less efficiency.

Curry is among the most efficient high volume scorers ever and his presence tends to raise the efficiency of his teammates as much as anyone.

I agree with you on this point, Curry is a great shooter is not all there is to it, he is a great scorer including being a great shooter, and this supercharges the rest of his game which is not negligible either, including a great handle, great motor as LeBron himself has said, good pure PG skills etc, and more to the point supercharges his team’s game cf his famed gravity.

Some of your previous arguments are self defeating imo, particularly that you are the only true believing Curry fan while others including me are less worthy because we are fans of Curry’s teams as well as of Curry. Ask Curry himself, he is a team player par excellence, hence the half court heaves on the buzzer, facilitation of KD to some extent at the expense of his own numbers, full defensive effort which does not characterise all offensive superstars over his very long prime, and I am told back at Davidson being happy to pass out to team mates when triple teamed in a crucial game. He becomes an almost unrecognisable and much less effective player imo when he does chase stats which he has only done for brief periods such as to get the all time 3 point record and 4000 made 3s milestone.

If there is a case for Curry against the likes of LeBron it is (again imo) his overall effect on a team/whether a better team can be built around him, LeBron has him covered for any number of individual attributes.

[WarriorGM]

That happens with all star players though. What you are talking about is adaptation to a reduced role when playing with a greater player.

You seem to think this is a LeBron trait when it's common to all great offensive players. There is only one ball.

LeBron also had a dip with Miami. Everyone had a dip. One ball.

This is where efficiency really helps. There is a penalty applied to a group of great players playing with one ball. But the penalty is not as high in comparison to another group with less efficiency.

Curry is among the most efficient high volume scorers ever and his presence tends to raise the efficiency of his teammates as much as anyone.

I agree with you on this point, Curry is a great shooter is not all there is to it, he is a great scorer including being a great shooter, and this supercharges the rest of his game which is not negligible either, including a great handle, great motor as LeBron himself has said, good pure PG skills etc, and more to the point supercharges his team’s game cf his famed gravity.

Some of your previous arguments are self defeating imo, particularly that you are the only true believing Curry fan while others including me are less worthy because we are fans of Curry’s teams as well as of Curry. Ask Curry himself, he is a team player par excellence, hence the half court heaves on the buzzer, facilitation of KD to some extent at the expense of his own numbers, full defensive effort which does not characterise all offensive superstars over his very long prime, and I am told back at Davidson being happy to pass out to team mates when triple teamed in a crucial game. He becomes an almost unrecognisable and much less effective player imo when he does chase stats which he has only done for brief periods such as to get the all time 3 point record and 4000 made 3s milestone.

If there is a case for Curry against the likes of LeBron it is (again imo) his overall effect on a team/whether a better team can be built around him, LeBron has him covered for any number of individual attributes.

I'm unsure what this post is supposed to say or its purpose. If it is to comment on me or reiterate the differences in our opinions and assure everyone how I do not speak for you that's fine. I don't and have never claimed to. Similarly you don't speak for me and you have no business telling me what I should say or how I should argue.

You're the one who has constantly been bringing up affiliation to Golden State. I actually start from a more neutral place. If I'm now biased it is because of Curry not his team.

[zimpy27]

What star became better with LeBron? Definitely not Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, or Love.

Let’s look at this a couple ways.

First, let’s go to the NBArapm website and look at the RAPM for these guys in years with and without LeBron. Kyrie’s three-year RAPM in 2015-17 was +1.8. It has been higher (and often by a lot) in all but one three-year span after that. Kevin Love’s four-year RAPM in 2015-18 was +3.1. It was higher in the four-year span just before he played with LeBron, and it was higher in the next couple years afterwards too. In fact, that specific four-year span was his worst four-year RAPM span in his prime. Chris Bosh’s four-year RAPM in his years with LeBron was a good bit lower than it had been in his pre-Miami years. And the same is certainly true for Dwyane Wade. Even Anthony Davis had a higher five-year RAPM in the five years before he joined LeBron than in the five years with LeBron (though this one was actually close—reflecting the often-held view that this was the least bad fit for a star with LeBron). In other words, every major star to play with LeBron had lower impact in their years with LeBron than they did in other years.

Second, let’s look instead at the years they played with LeBron and see how impactful these guys were in the minutes they played with LeBron compared to the minutes without him. Specifically, let’s take the minutes these teams played with LeBron and see what the team’s net rating was in the minutes with the other star, compared to what it was in minutes without the star. That indicates what the player’s on-off was in LeBron’s minutes. And then let’s do the same in non-LeBron minutes, to get these players’ on-off in non-LeBron minutes. We can then compare them, and see whether their on-off was better in LeBron’s minutes or in non-LeBron minutes. What do we find? Well, for Kyrie from 2015-2017, his on-off in LeBron minutes was only +0.19, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +9.73. For Love from 2015-2018, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +3.56, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.15. For Bosh from 2011-2014, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +5.36, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +8.37. For Wade from 2011-2014, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +5.27, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.36. For Anthony Davis from 2020-2025, his on-off in LeBron minutes was +1.16, while his on-off in non-LeBron minutes was +5.42. In other words, every major star LeBron has played with has had worse impact with LeBron on the floor than with LeBron off the floor.

Just to tie this together, what do we see here? Well, in the years Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Wade, and Davis played with LeBron, they all had more impact when LeBron was off the court than when LeBron was on the court. And they also all had more impact in other timeframes than they did in their years with LeBron. It’s basically not debatable that star players’ impact went down with LeBron.

That happens with all star players though. What you are talking about is adaptation to a reduced role when playing with a greater player.

You seem to think this is a LeBron trait when it's common to all great offensive players. There is only one ball.

LeBron also had a dip with Miami. Everyone had a dip. One ball.

This is where efficiency really helps. There is a penalty applied to a group of great players playing with one ball. But the penalty is not as high in comparison to another group with less efficiency.

Curry is among the most efficient high volume scorers ever and his presence tends to raise the efficiency of his teammates as much as anyone.

I agree, if this was all about on-ball stats then Curry isn't in the conversation. Not particularly close. I also can't help but feel that more than anyone in the top 10, the team game plan is suited strongest to Curry's strengths.

But yes off-ball impact matters and so does efficiency. It's why people have Curry around 10th all time.

[michaelm]

This is where efficiency really helps. There is a penalty applied to a group of great players playing with one ball. But the penalty is not as high in comparison to another group with less efficiency.

Curry is among the most efficient high volume scorers ever and his presence tends to raise the efficiency of his teammates as much as anyone.

I agree with you on this point, Curry is a great shooter is not all there is to it, he is a great scorer including being a great shooter, and this supercharges the rest of his game which is not negligible either, including a great handle, great motor as LeBron himself has said, good pure PG skills etc, and more to the point supercharges his team’s game cf his famed gravity.

Some of your previous arguments are self defeating imo, particularly that you are the only true believing Curry fan while others including me are less worthy because we are fans of Curry’s teams as well as of Curry. Ask Curry himself, he is a team player par excellence, hence the half court heaves on the buzzer, facilitation of KD to some extent at the expense of his own numbers, full defensive effort which does not characterise all offensive superstars over his very long prime, and I am told back at Davidson being happy to pass out to team mates when triple teamed in a crucial game. He becomes an almost unrecognisable and much less effective player imo when he does chase stats which he has only done for brief periods such as to get the all time 3 point record and 4000 made 3s milestone.

If there is a case for Curry against the likes of LeBron it is (again imo) his overall effect on a team/whether a better team can be built around him, LeBron has him covered for any number of individual attributes.

I'm unsure what this post is supposed to say or its purpose. If it is to comment on me or reiterate the differences in our opinions and assure everyone how I do not speak for you that's fine. I don't and have never claimed to. Similarly you don't speak for me and you have no business telling me what I should say or how I should argue.

You're the one who has constantly been bringing up affiliation to Golden State. I actually start from a more neutral place. If I'm now biased it is because of Curry not his team.

I was attempting to disagree politely with part of your post, not attempting to argue on your behalf.

No need for me to bother in future then, and this is probably the place for you.

[yellowknifer]

I used to be a James hater. But that 3 game stretch against the Warriors is the best basketball anyone has ever played. He’s still an elite game changing player and he doesn’t seem to be slowing down anytime soon. He carried teams to finals appearances that had no business being there and even won some games. He has developed his game constantly. He has no weaknesses really anymore outside having lost a step. And even then he’s still one of the best athletes around.

You have to consider longevity. Michael was great and for a long time I had him. But the absolute peak was higher for Lebron and so is the longevity. Maybe it would be different if MJ didnt retire because he missed some great years.

[bledredwine]

Watch on YouTube

Underrated GOAT skill of Jordan - the skills to get by defenders. No one has been able to do it like him.

[balrog27]

Here's a question to ask everyone, would Jordan's Bulls be 6-0 vs the teams Lebron faced in the Finals. Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

[michaelm]

Here's a question to ask everyone, would Jordan's Bulls be 6-0 vs the teams Lebron faced in the Finals. Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

We will never know, but better than 0 -6 I would venture to suggest. Also depends on which Jordan Bulls team, the 72 win Bulls against 2017 GSW would be epic.

[MavsDirk41]

Here's a question to ask everyone, would Jordan's Bulls be 6-0 vs the teams Lebron faced in the Finals. Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Here a question to ask everyone, would Jordan have cost his team a finals in 2011 against the Mavs? Would he have been swept multiple times? Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Here's a question to ask everyone, would Jordan's Bulls be 6-0 vs the teams Lebron faced in the Finals. Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Here a question to ask everyone, would Jordan have cost his team a finals in 2011 against the Mavs? Would he have been swept multiple times? Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

[MavsDirk41]

Here's a question to ask everyone, would Jordan's Bulls be 6-0 vs the teams Lebron faced in the Finals. Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Here a question to ask everyone, would Jordan have cost his team a finals in 2011 against the Mavs? Would he have been swept multiple times? Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

[One Last Shot]

Here a question to ask everyone, would Jordan have cost his team a finals in 2011 against the Mavs? Would he have been swept multiple times? Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

[ReggiesKnicks]

Here a question to ask everyone, would Jordan have cost his team a finals in 2011 against the Mavs? Would he have been swept multiple times? Your answer to this should answer this question for you.

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

I agree. It isn't fair to LeBron or Jordan.

Here is the most important thing about LeBron's Finals though.

Underdog:
2007: Spurs -450 - Big 3 Spurs in their primes vs a 22 y/o LeBron
2012 : OKC -175 - this one might be a surprise but Vegas loved OKC and who wouldn't? They swept the defending champs, 4-1'd the ex defending champs, and absolutely obliterated a very good Spurs team after starting 0-2 while the Heat almost got Celtics'd.
2014 : Spurs -155 - pretty close to even odds in this finals rematch
2015 : Warriors -220 - this was the line before Kyrie got hurt
2016 : Warriors -220 - 73 win team
2017: Warriors -300 - KD joined a 73 win team
2018: Warriors -1075(lol) - Kyrie nope'd out

Favorite years:
2011 : Heat -175 - first big 3 year and the most embarrassing playoff performance by LeBron ever
2013: Heat -220 - Heat absolutely destroyed the regular season winning 66 games, against most other finals teams they would have been larger favorites but as we all know those Spurs teams were something special
2020: Lakers -330

And here are Jordan's
Underdog:

Favorite years:
1991: Bulls -200
1992: Bulls -250
1993: Bulls -240
1996: Bulls -940
1997: Bulls -600
1998: Bulls -115

[michaelm]

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

OKC were a team of 22 and 23 year olds whatever those guys might have become in the future. OKC didn’t even see fit to retain Harden although I would have thought the signs of future greatness were already there.

[michaelm]

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

So how exactly does LeBron’s teams being beaten by dynastic teams make him better than the guys around whom those dynasties were built ?.