Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[JayMKE]

What’s confusing is why the team was so much better offensively under Griffin who really didn’t run any sort of offense that I remember. I think just being hot versus obscenely weak schedule might be 90% of it. Doc I think actively encourages the ball pounding and lack of movement idk, it might be worse than nothing

[jute2003]

I think Giannis is an incredible talent but is flawed and not as easy to build around as other superstars. Brook is old and even more matchup dependent than he used to be. Dame is still a star but is older and the lack of a strong 2G exacerbates his weaknesses. Bobby is a bench big that at best, doesn't hurt you. Kuzma and kpj do some good things but have their own warts. The rest of the roster is role players that need to be put in the right positions to be playable.

The team has also had a give a **** problem for years and goes through long stretches of funk.

Add a thoroughly uninspiring and mediocre coach and you have a Bucks team that is a homecourt team but not a true contender. Khris has been a player that changes that exactly one year in his career and that certainly wasn't this year.

[ShootingtheJ]

What’s confusing is why the team was so much better offensively under Griffin who really didn’t run any sort of offense that I remember. I think just being hot versus obscenely weak schedule might be 90% of it. Doc I think actively encourages the ball pounding and lack of movement idk, it might be worse than nothing

A big part of Griffins offensive success was 2nd chance points, driven by relentless offensive rebounding, which lead to embarrassing transition defense.

[German Athens]

What’s confusing is why the team was so much better offensively under Griffin who really didn’t run any sort of offense that I remember. I think just being hot versus obscenely weak schedule might be 90% of it. Doc I think actively encourages the ball pounding and lack of movement idk, it might be worse than nothing

A big part of Griffins offensive success was 2nd chance points, driven by relentless offensive rebounding, which lead to embarrassing transition defense.

We were 26th in offensive rebound percentage last year. We’re 30th now, but that doesn’t explain the massive drop off alone.


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[Baddy Chuck]

The Bucks have been a top 4 team this year with Giannis on and Dame off.

Using this logic we're a top 6 team with Dame and Giannis together.

Unfortunately a bottom 5 team with Dame but no Giannis

Yup and I agree that is a problem. Currently we have a $50 million player, putting up (near) $50 million player impact stats by all accounts, not making anywhere near $50 million in impact for the team. You can have your own opinions on why, I'm probably not going to agree with (most of) them. I could agree that some trades would improve us, I think alot of the proposed don't really get us anywhere near championship quality. I agree that the combo of Dame/Giannis isn't the perfect pairing and with the current systems in place, and maybe any system, they'll never be the combo we wanted.

Last season we were better with Dame on the court all across the board. Better than Giannis himself, better then the pair together, only improved by adding Middleton to the pair. Now this season we're in the dumpster with him by himself and not amazing with him and Giannis. Personally, don't think Dame has fallen off a cliff or anything and individual stats pretty much support that.

Early on it was because Dame wasn't a catch and shoot player, well now he shoots 42% catch and shoot threes. The pace is brought up, we're basically the same pace with Dame on or off the court and Giannis is averaging like 1 less transition point a game then "usual" years where we were a top 3 defense. Dame is in the 90th+ percentile this season as a pick and roll player, yet the the Giannis/Dame combo isn't making moves in that area. The only chucks jump shooter is averaging .1 drives less per game than Giannis, at .4 less points, with more assists off those drives. Speaking of passing, he's top 10 in assists per game and potential assists.

Personally I don't know where the problem is. You can point out Dame's defense and it's a problem for sure, but also when him and Giannis are on the court its exactly the same as when Dame is off, there's no improvement. It does fall off HEAVY when Giannis is off with Dame on though, yet last season there was no falloff and even somehow drastic improvement compared to the duo. The defensive improvement this season from the team comes from both off the court, where we have a negative net rating and a 101 ORTG.

The three? months of the AJax experiment also didn't help. Removing him from the Giannis/Dame lineup raises it pretty significantly, though it also improves just the Giannis lineups as well. Surprisingly not only the offense improves but the defense as well with him out raising the duo net to +7.71. Can't place all blame on Ajax though when at times like say the Golden State game where we end the game with 4 straight minutes of scoreless ball.

I'd tend to believe a guy who just a year ago was literally our biggest impact player based on the stat you're crucifying him for, who by all accounts is having a "better" season this year could probably find a way back into the plus whether through system, rotations, new personnel, etc. Your last two whipping boys (PJ and Malik) went onto new spots the year after leaving here and had literally the best seasons of maybe their careers after being called worthless by you. Your guaranteed better fits, better players, impact players like Semi and Delon were some of the worst players on our team ever. Sometimes it ain't that black and white.

[nagawicka]

You have zeroed in on the main problem. The demise of KM. Without him, the Bucks are a slightly above average team, as their record indicates.

Don't disagree with this.

But what does this say about our two max superstars that they needed a third all-star to drag this team to 50-wins?

It says our roster is top heavy.You don't have to have a third all star, but if you don't, then your other pieces have to be much higher quality than the Bucks have.

You could win a title with a healthy Khris and having Prince start. You can't win a title with Kuzma as supposedly your third best player and Prince still starting.

You can't blame the two stars for the rest of the roster.

You can't credit our two stars for the rest of the roster. They did not win a title without the other 3 guys on the floor. Not engaging the other guys so you can play heroball is a losing recipe that has been diagnosed by multiple realGMers over the past days and weeks. Compare the 2021 & 2025 rosters: either the league got wayyy better OR G & D got way worse, b/c our surrounding core & roster looks better now.

[pifhluk23]

You have zeroed in on the main problem. The demise of KM. Without him, the Bucks are a slightly above average team, as their record indicates.

Bull. He didn't help us this season. We weren't a 50 win team with him and we are not one without him. Yes it's disappointing that all we could get was Kuzma but blame our gm for that move.

I'm not saying KM shouldn't have been moved if the Bucks medical staff said he was cooked, so calm down.

What I said is that, if healthy, he is a bonafide all star, Olympian and champion and the smartest player on the floor. He is/was an elite shotmaker at all levels and made everyone around him better. It's really hard to deny any of this.

The loss of KM was huge. And of course he didn't help this year. He was injured. What are you arguing against?

Smart player is the one thing most NBA fans completely overlook. And imo is one of the .most determining factors in playoff basketball. That was the 1 reason to keep Khris but I get that the trade got us under the 2nd apron and Kuz contract is better but I think we lowered our ceiling this season.

[BroncoBuck]

What’s confusing is why the team was so much better offensively under Griffin who really didn’t run any sort of offense that I remember. I think just being hot versus obscenely weak schedule might be 90% of it. Doc I think actively encourages the ball pounding and lack of movement idk, it might be worse than nothing

Under Griff we didn’t get back on defense at all. I’d be interested to see what our second chance points looked like in comparison. The Griff Bucks team had to be one of the worst transition defense teams of all time.

Edit-and now I see this has already been mentioned by others

[BroncoBuck]

It’s 2025 and Giannis still can’t set an effective screen. He’s been surrounded with shooters ever since Bud came to town, but still hasn’t made setting screens part of his game. That takes away a lot of what the Giannis/Dame pairing could potentially be.

[Baddy Chuck]

What’s confusing is why the team was so much better offensively under Griffin who really didn’t run any sort of offense that I remember. I think just being hot versus obscenely weak schedule might be 90% of it. Doc I think actively encourages the ball pounding and lack of movement idk, it might be worse than nothing

Under Griff we didn’t get back on defense at all. I’d be interested to see what our second chance points looked like in comparison. The Griff Bucks team had to be one of the worst transition defense teams of all time.

Edit-and now I see this has already been mentioned by others

Under Griffin they were 15th in the league in second chance points (13.9) and 25th in offensive rebounding (9.6) while being 23rd in opponent fast break points (15). Currently this season we're 29th in second chance points (11.7), dead last in offensive rebounding (8.5) and 18th in opponent fast break points (15.7). So about 2 points a game from offensive rebounding and better transition defense then we're seeing now.

[msiris]

You have zeroed in on the main problem. The demise of KM. Without him, the Bucks are a slightly above average team, as their record indicates.

Bull. He didn't help us this season. We weren't a 50 win team with him and we are not one without him. Yes it's disappointing that all we could get was Kuzma but blame our gm for that move.

I'm not saying KM shouldn't have been moved if the Bucks medical staff said he was cooked, so calm down.

What I said is that, if healthy, he is a bonafide all star, Olympian and champion and the smartest player on the floor. He is/was an elite shotmaker at all levels and made everyone around him better. It's really hard to deny any of this.

The loss of KM was huge. And of course he didn't help this year. He was injured. What are you arguing against?

Whats done is don is done. KM was a great player for us. Sad the way it ended but thats sports for you. Its would have been different story if he wasn't the 3rd highest paid player on the team. Would have been great if he could have retired as a Buck but money rules.

[German Athens]

One thing I really don’t get, is teams trying to save offensive plays for the playoffs. I think that’s just dumb.

Use the regular season to do things you do well, and practice things you don’t, but ultimately work on everything. Actively avoiding something you think is really effective, and will be effective in the playoffs, as if they are state secrets is dumb.

There aren’t that many differing play types in basketball, and even fewer differing ways to defend against them.

For instance, last year in game 1, we used that high horn set for Dame where two guys set screens like 35 feet from the hoop. It worked super well, and we rode Dame to the win. I thought that was going to be a staple of our offense, but we saw it really infrequently under Griffin, and now basically never see it under Doc. I don’t get it.

I think goal of any offense, after just plain scoring the ball, would be to manufacture space. That look creates space for Dame which would inevitably force help and create even more space for shooters on the perimeter. If the help doesn’t come, there is still plenty of space for Dame to score, and easier passing windows for him to dish the ball. Once again, I just don’t get it.

[raferfenix]

What ever happened to #DameTime…

For the season, the Bucks rank sixth in the NBA in offensive efficiency in the first quarter, tied for 10th in the second quarter, 14th in the third quarter … and dead last in the fourth quarter, scoring just 105.8 points per 100 possessions in the final frame. The struggles grow even more pronounced when you focus in on crunch time, with Milwaukee producing a mere 97.1 points-per-100 in “clutch” situations — when the score is within five points in the final five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime — while shooting just 38.7% from the field and 30% from 3-point land with nearly as many turnovers (38) as assists (44) in those scenarios.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/article/doc-rivers-reportedly-meets-with-giannis-antetokounmpo-and-damian-lillard-as-bucks-continue-offensive-funk-172919217.html

[Brewhoopfan]

Giannis and Dame tend to be ball stoppers on offense. Both tend to take way to much time to 'size up' the defense before making their move. It's always going to hard to run a crisp offense with them on the floor. All that said, It would still be very effective just having them take turns and spreading the floor. This was essentially Bud's offense (which I hated), but at least it was organized and the players understood what they were doing. Now we have an offense which sucks in the regular season and certainly will suck in the playoffs.

[BigO]

When the lineup you have out there includes Prince (pretty much a statue) and Kuzma (consistently inefficient), the ball is going to end up in Giannis or Dame's hand. You can't take turns spreading the floor and taking shots when you have have mediocre guys in your lineup.

There are things I think should be done that aren't being done on offense:

1) Stop using Brook solely as a statue 30 feet from the basket or as a pick and roll guy. Post him up down low (especially in certain matchups) and spread the floor. It's malpractice not to use his skills there and his ability to draw fouls.

2) Don't have Prince and Kuzma in the lineup at the same time.

3) Start varying your lineups depending on the matchups. Spoelstra has a changing lineup game to game. Unfortunately, it is uncommon for coaches to use their brain and think about those things. 90% of coaches are slow to change and Doc is certainly one of them.

[Prez]

The fact that we’re 3rd in 3PT% as a team, 3rd in C&S 3PT% specifically, with 5 of our top 8-9 guys being good to elite 3PT shooters and we’re just 18th in 3PA is malpractice. Our offense is clunky and woefully uncreative.

We are approaching the end of March and we’ve yet to have a sensible starting 5. Our most used starting lineup this year - with Giannis **** Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard in it - literally has a negative net rating. Once we traded for Kuzma, the moron thought it would be better to slot Prince at the 2 instead of starting one of our 3 better SG options for that spot.

I cannot express how much I dislike Doc this season. This idiot is the reason I can’t even say we have a punchers chance with Giannis/Dame. He’s not the only problem but he’s the biggest one and the reason why I’m leaning towards a first round exit at this point.

[neiLz]

just wait til we get bobby back.

[tedbrogen]

Starting Prince at SG over KPJ, Trent, AJG, and Rollins should be a fireable offense.

[GregAz]

When the lineup you have out there includes Prince (pretty much a statue) and Kuzma (consistently inefficient), the ball is going to end up in Giannis or Dame's hand. You can't take turns spreading the floor and taking shots when you have have mediocre guys in your lineup.

There are things I think should be done that aren't being done on offense:

1) Stop using Brook solely as a statue 30 feet from the basket or as a pick and roll guy. Post him up down low (especially in certain matchups) and spread the floor. It's malpractice not to use his skills there and his ability to draw fouls.

2) Don't have Prince and Kuzma in the lineup at the same time.

3) Start varying your lineups depending on the matchups. Spoelstra has a changing lineup game to game. Unfortunately, it is uncommon for coaches to use their brain and think about those things. 90% of coaches are slow to change and Doc is certainly one of them.

While post ups would be slightly beneficial for our offense with brook, it creates a huge defensive liability as it creates more court for him to recover on defense. Brook just can't get up and down the court like that. Brook is one of my favorite Bucks of all time, but the reality is at this point in his career, he would be ideally used a lot more situationally than he is.

I kind of agree with you on number two, but more in the sense that I don't think Kuzma should be on the court with Giannis for any extended minutes, while Prince should only be on the court while Giannis is playing.

Kuzma is probably our third best overall player, but his minutes with Giannis just clog the lane too much. No one is respecting Kuzma as a shooter, and his defender just sags off close to the lane.

A lot of the focus here has been on getting Prince out of the starting lineup, but I think the bigger problem is Kuzma. His defense has been pretty good, but he is not a fit on offense when Giannis is playing. Prince's biggest defensive problems is that he's being asked to defend guards, which would be remedied if we put Trent in as our starting guard and brought Kuzma off the bench. Every minute that Giannis is not on the floor, I would play Kuzma, and only overlap the two of them for short 1-2minute bursts.

[ShootingtheJ]

When the lineup you have out there includes Prince (pretty much a statue) and Kuzma (consistently inefficient), the ball is going to end up in Giannis or Dame's hand. You can't take turns spreading the floor and taking shots when you have have mediocre guys in your lineup.

There are things I think should be done that aren't being done on offense:

1) Stop using Brook solely as a statue 30 feet from the basket or as a pick and roll guy. Post him up down low (especially in certain matchups) and spread the floor. It's malpractice not to use his skills there and his ability to draw fouls.

Brook is no longer an efficient post up player, nor does he want to post up.