Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

He's not going to average 30 lol. But it's the kind of run that makes you think he should at minimum be able to finish the year averaging 20+.

The trade was HATED by the bulk of the fanbase for a reason.

There was also a lot of talk about how many NBA pundits were saying it was a good trade, so it had to be. Never underestimate the pitfalls of consensus building, just too many people are too afraid to be seen as different. See political polling.

[Despy]

Even if Deni was better than any of the four picks we got for him he would still have to be better than the sum of all four picks we got for him and with Carrington quite possibly being better than him (in the near future) that doesn't leave a lot of room left

[TGW]

Even if Deni was better than any of the four picks we got for him he would still have to be better than the sum of all four picks we got for him and with Carrington quite possibly being better than him (in the near future) that doesn't leave a lot of room left

In basketball, a dollar is always worth more than 4 quarters. Teams want superstars and stars, and you rarely see them traded for smaller pieces unless that player is aging, overpaid, or both. Deni is neither of those things.

As for Bub being better than Deni in the near future...don't hold your breath. Bub seems to lack several abilities that Deni possesses. Height, the ability to attac the hoop, and the ability to defend 4 positions on the court. I don't see it at all.

[Despy]

Even if Deni was better than any of the four picks we got for him he would still have to be better than the sum of all four picks we got for him and with Carrington quite possibly being better than him (in the near future) that doesn't leave a lot of room left

In basketball, a dollar is always worth more than 4 quarters. Teams want superstars and stars, and you rarely see them traded for smaller pieces unless that player is aging, overpaid, or both. Deni is neither of those things.

As for Bub being better than Deni in the nearqfuture...don't hold your breath. Bub seems to lack several abilities that Deni possesses. Height, the ability to attac the hoop, and the ability to defend 4 positions on the court. I don't see it at all.

Depth matters and I'd rather have two B+s than an A. People aren't trading the goberts or bridges of the world in the expectation that one of the five firsts (from good teams) is going to equal the player they tradePd away.

Also since deni was so awful his first few years not giving bub the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his his own growth is disingenuous. Especially since bub is already light years ahead of where deni was offensively at this point of thier careers

It's like we traded away a dollar for 90 cents and still have 3 picks left

And even if you don't value bub that much you'd have to value Denis rookie year even less

[nate33]

Depth matters and I'd rather have two B+s than an A.

Depth doesn't matter nearly as much as top-tier upside. There are only 5 players on the court, and they play more and more minutes the further you advance into the playoffs.

Also, we are not talking about two B+'s versus one A. In all likelihood, going by draft position, we are talking about one A versus, a B, a B-, and two D's (Bub, the 2029 FRP and the two SRP's respectively). You always take the A over depth like that. Those SRP's in particular are no more likely to be successful than a walk-on like Justin Champagne.

[payitforward]

nate's basic point appears to be this: "Independent of everything else, the better Deni plays the more likely it is that the trade was a mistake."
How can anyone argue with that?

[payitforward]

Along the same lines, one would also say, "independent of everything else, the better Bub plays the less likely it is that the trade was a mistake."
How can anyone argue with that either?

Ditto how well the 3 other draft assets turn out. Can't argue with that either.

[AFM]

Along the same lines, one would also say, "independent of everything else, the better Bub plays the less likely it is that the trade was a mistake."
How can anyone argue with that either?

Ditto how well the 3 other draft assets turn out. Can't argue with that either.

Real life doesn't function "independent of everything else". Would you like to be 31-39 right now? Picking 12th this year and losing our pick next year.

[payitforward]

You forget which side of this issue I'm on!

[AFM]

At this point I don't remember what side of the issue I'm on. All I know is #DDQ

[Dark Faze]

Just to play devils advocate--I suspect when we're a couple of months removed from the regular season we're going to look at his stats overall for the year and realize that the improvement while pretty good, wasn't as big a leap as one might think given the recent glaze. I hadn't quite realized how close to the end of the year we are. Only 12 or so games left. The "end of year pop off" is generally taken with a grain of salt for a reason. In this case given the competition the Blazers have faced this month on top of gunning for a play-in spot, I think the numbers are more real than not, but it's worth mentioning.

Basically I'm saying this conversation is going to go on for a while lol. We're going to continue evaluating well into next year at a minimum.

[nate33]

Just to play devils advocate--I suspect when we're a couple of months removed from the regular season we're going to look at his stats overall for the year and realize that the improvement while pretty good, wasn't as big a leap as one might think given the recent glaze. I hadn't quite realized how close to the end of the year we are. Only 12 or so games left. The "end of year pop off" is generally taken with a grain of salt for a reason. In this case given the competition the Blazers have faced this month on top of gunning for a play-in spot, I think the numbers are more real than not, but it's worth mentioning.

Basically I'm saying this conversation is going to go on for a while lol. We're going to continue evaluating well into next year at a minimum.

I agree.

I doubt he can maintain the 25, 12 and 5 he has posted over the last 5 games. But the 20, 8 and 4 (per 36) with a .600 TS% he posted over the last 54 games seems totally sustainable.

[Despy]

Depth matters and I'd rather have two B+s than an A.

Depth doesn't matter nearly as much as top-tier upside. There are only 5 players on the court, and they play more and more minutes the further you advance into the playoffs.

Also, we are not talking about two B+'s versus one A. In all likelihood, going by draft position, we are talking about one A versus, a B, a B-, and two D's (Bub, the 2029 FRP and the two SRP's respectively). You always take the A over depth like that. Those SRP's in particular are no more likely to be successful than a walk-on like Justin Champagne.

What would you call Denis rookie year? F+? And Deni could be Jordan pulling us to a 29 win season bit how would that help anything?

[TGW]

Depth matters and I'd rather have two B+s than an A.

Depth doesn't matter nearly as much as top-tier upside. There are only 5 players on the court, and they play more and more minutes the further you advance into the playoffs.

Also, we are not talking about two B+'s versus one A. In all likelihood, going by draft position, we are talking about one A versus, a B, a B-, and two D's (Bub, the 2029 FRP and the two SRP's respectively). You always take the A over depth like that. Those SRP's in particular are no more likely to be successful than a walk-on like Justin Champagne.

What would you call Denis rookie year? F+?

You really think Bub is having a good rookie season?

I'll answer that for you...he's not. So you;re failing miserably at whatever point you're trying to make.

[nate33]

Depth matters and I'd rather have two B+s than an A.

Depth doesn't matter nearly as much as top-tier upside. There are only 5 players on the court, and they play more and more minutes the further you advance into the playoffs.

Also, we are not talking about two B+'s versus one A. In all likelihood, going by draft position, we are talking about one A versus, a B, a B-, and two D's (Bub, the 2029 FRP and the two SRP's respectively). You always take the A over depth like that. Those SRP's in particular are no more likely to be successful than a walk-on like Justin Champagne.

What would you call Denis rookie year? F+? And Deni could be Jordan pulling us to a 29 win season bit how would that help anything?

I'd say in Deni's rookie year he proved he was a big, athletic guy who could defend multiple positions and handle the ball extremely well for a big man, but just couldn't shoot that well yet. His impact wasn't great but you could see the potential of him being a very good player if only his shot came around. There was no way to know if his shot actually would come around, but if it did, his ceiling was extremely high.

I assume you are bringing this up because I am rating a Bub a B and assuming he won't reach Deni's level. The issue with Bub is that he is not an elite athlete and he lacks any exceptional stand-out skills that he is likely to leverage to be an above-average starter. He is already pretty good at the things that normally one expects to improve (shooting, decision-making) while being fairly average in the things one can't really improve (athleticism, size, explosion). Because of this, I don't think there is a tremendous upside for him to unlock. I think it is likely he will get modestly better so that he will end up as a solid pro for many years, but I think it is highly unlikely that he has any All-Star potential whatsoever.

(I'm not saying it's impossible. There are a handful of guys who have become really elite scorers by honing their technique to such extreme levels that they can overcome their physical limitations, guys like Jalen Brunson, Jamaal Murray, Steph Curry and Steve Nash. I'm just saying those guys are extremely rare and it's foolish to expect that. I think Bub projects to be on a similar level as guys like Immanuel Quickley or Dennis Schroder. That's still a fine pick at #14 in this lousy draft, but it's not as good as Deni.)

[Despy]

Bub is simply ahead of where deni was at this point of their careers and at the beginning of this year.
For us to lose this trade
1. all 4 picks have to be worse than deni (I disagree but whatever).
2. Deni also has to be both signable and good somewhere at the end of this decade. (I think he's not taking any more team friendly deals)
3. He has to by virtue of him being a darnn good player not cost us draft capital. Kinda hard to measure (does the NBA havev WAR?) but him being good while we are bad does have negative value.

Seems like a lot of "ifs" to me. It's possible five years from now we could be going "damn should kept deni" but it's soo far out and looks unlikely

[MOSH]

Deni wasn't a rookie when you were tanking, that's a different thing along with the fact that he came from a different culture. Deni is currently looking like an allstar.

31 on 18 you said?
How about 36 on 16? 75/66.7/88.9 splits.
I never thought I'd say it, but he's playing like an all star. For a few years now, he comes back from the all-star break a much better player. It looks like it's going to be years before you could argue this deal was the correct move.

[Jimmy Recard]

Webber, Sheed, Ben Wallace, Rip…let’s go ahead and add Deni to the list

[9 and 20]

We already lost this trade, if you're looking at it as a zero sum thing. If Portland trades Deni now, they'd get more than 2 firsts and 2 seconds for him.

Still could have been a decent move. It's possible we won, but won less than Portland, if you look at it as a positive sum thing.

[Despy]

Oh comon we know the nuggets dont play defense, or is that just for sarr?