FIRE WELTMAN

[pepe1991]

Root issue is fact that, like Fortune Teller said, Weltman wasted years of doing nothing, missing on countless opportunities to improve roster ( Bol Bol, Fultz, Bamba, Okeke, 6th pick, 11th pick, Nuggets pick, RJ Hampton, s*** load of expiring contracts etc), re-singing people after team started winning, not understanding what is required for next step all lead to this.

Now when he needs trade, whole league is well aware what Magic need, so they play hard ball with them. Assuming he even calls. According to ESPN, that's not even a case.

The way he constructed contracts is most telling. Isaac filled salary floor, scaling back, everything was made to avoid aprons. He really thought he has contender on his hands. And that is scariest part.

After finishing season with 9th lowest offensive rating, 7th worst 3% shooting team, his fix was...KCP.

[I Rasharted]

He really thought he has contender on his hands. And that is scariest part.

This.

[eyriq]

He really thought he has contender on his hands. And that is scariest part.

This.

Fake news

[cedric76]

He really thought he has contender on his hands. And that is scariest part.

This.

Some Fans were thinking that we d be title contender with our 3 best players under 23 yrs old. and that s the scariest part

But an experienced GM knew that you need to be patient and get the right players at the right time

Over paying for a player that doesnt help you pass the 2nd round at the Feb deadline isnt the way to do business

LEt s see what he does this summer

[VFX]

The same people that wanted to “wait and see” with Vucevic, AG, and Fournier for 10 years before making decisions are the same people saying let’s “wait and see” with Weltman 8 years into a job and 10 lottery picks later to start making decisions to round out a roster.

Sorry, you’ve lost the benefit of doubt and your idea of “patience” leads nowhere in today’s nba.

Nobody that has been paying attention is listening to you.

[eyriq]

The same people that wanted to “wait and see” with Vucevic, AG, and Fournier for 10 years before making decisions are the same people saying let’s “wait and see” with Weltman 8 years into a job and 10 lottery picks later to start making decisions to round out a roster.

Sorry, you’ve lost the benefit of doubt and your idea of “patience” leads nowhere in today’s nba.

Nobody that has been paying attention is listening to you.

That wasn’t me. That core obviously lacked a franchise player and I loathed it

[pepe1991]

He really thought he has contender on his hands. And that is scariest part.

This.

Fake news

Can you elaborate?

[eyriq]

This.

Fake news

Can you elaborate?

Weltman didn’t think this team was a contender. He’s on record saying they were ahead of schedule and rewarded them with continuity.

[Skybox]

He really thought he has contender on his hands. And that is scariest part.

This.

Some Fans were thinking that we d be title contender with our 3 best players under 23 yrs old. and that s the scariest part

But an experienced GM knew that you need to be patient and get the right players at the right time

Over paying for a player that doesnt help you pass the 2nd round at the Feb deadline isnt the way to do business

LEt s see what he does this summer

You can make an argument against the obvious scoring lead guards out there at the TD (or last summer for that matter)…how do you rationalize the multi-year extensions of WCJ and Isaac last summer, along with multi-year 22+m for KCP? How do those fit into “patient, organic, sensible growth while keeping powder dry”?

All three are now negative value trade chips that will cost us just to move in a salary match. Cole's is similar, but, at least expiring/TO. Those deals put the positive guys like AB and TdS and even Goga at risk of being thrown in just to provide something promising to a larger package…that’s the predictable “squeeze” that Weltman will face and probably already got a whiff of at TD…Also, a likely reason he’ll get nothing done - to avoid (like the plague) appearing to “lose” a trade while paying the price to clean up previous mistakes. This is my fear - that he won’t face down and pay down what he must to shed those limiting burdens…I hope he has the fortitude to rip off the band-aid, but I doubt it.

[pepe1991]

Fake news

Can you elaborate?

Weltman didn’t think this team was a contender. He’s on record saying they were ahead of schedule and rewarded them with continuity.

If he didn't think this is contender, why all salaries are formed in fashion where you can't add any FA any time soon?

Magic will be luxury tax team if they keep Mortiz.
If they don't , they have MLE, but in that case they are still -luxury tax team.

Year after, Banchero's contract will kick in making any FA additions impossible.


Isaac and Carter are injury prone role players. Here's noble idea- let them explore market value. Hint- their market value isn't money they ended up making. One is quarter a game player, other is annual- 35 games missed a year rotation center.

[eyriq]

Can you elaborate?

Weltman didn’t think this team was a contender. He’s on record saying they were ahead of schedule and rewarded them with continuity.

If he didn't think this is contender, why all salaries are formed in fashion where you can't add any FA any time soon?

Magic will be luxury tax team if they keep Mortiz.
If they don't , they have MLE, but in that case they are still -luxury tax team.

Year after, Banchero's contract will kick in making any FA additions impossible.


Isaac and Carter are injury prone role players. Here's noble idea- let them explore market value. Hint- their market value isn't money they ended up making. One is quarter a game player, other is annual- 35 games missed a year rotation center.

The cap sheet is extremely immature right now. Our best players are still on their rookie scale contracts. Our three best players won't be our three highest paid players until 2026-27 season. So in two seasons we'll have a mature cap sheet that is more typical of a contender. Paolo will make +25%, Franz 24.5%, Suggs 19%.

The average team pays 69% for their top 3, we'll be right there unless Paolo gets All-NBA honors next season.

So in two seasons we'll have a cap sheet typical of a playoff team.

WCJ will make 10.6%, JI will make 8.5%. That level of money is what is typically paid to a teams 5th and 6th best players.

In no world does any of this indicate that Weltman thinks he's built a contender.

[Skybox]

Weltman didn’t think this team was a contender. He’s on record saying they were ahead of schedule and rewarded them with continuity.

If he didn't think this is contender, why all salaries are formed in fashion where you can't add any FA any time soon?

Magic will be luxury tax team if they keep Mortiz.
If they don't , they have MLE, but in that case they are still -luxury tax team.

Year after, Banchero's contract will kick in making any FA additions impossible.


Isaac and Carter are injury prone role players. Here's noble idea- let them explore market value. Hint- their market value isn't money they ended up making. One is quarter a game player, other is annual- 35 games missed a year rotation center.

The cap sheet is extremely immature right now. Our best players are still on their rookie scale contracts. Our three best players won't be our three highest paid players until 2026-27 season. So in two seasons we'll have a mature cap sheet that is more typical of a contender. Paolo will make +25%, Franz 24.5%, Suggs 19%.

The average team pays 69% for their top 3, we'll be right there unless Paolo gets All-NBA honors next season.

So in two seasons we'll have a cap sheet typical of a playoff team.

WCJ will make 10.6%, JI will make 8.5%. That level of money is what is typically paid to a teams 5th and 6th best players.

In no world does any of this indicate that Weltman thinks he's built a contender.

If most or all of those Ill-advised extensions are still on the roster and/or ARE our5th and 6th best players…we’re dead in the water. Unless we score some rookie scale gems, but that’s a stupid thing to bank on (overpaid guys that stink and believing young late frps will carry them. You make it sound like those rookie extensions aren’t just weeks away.

[eyriq]

If most or all of those Ill-advised extensions are still on the roster and/or ARE our5th and 6th best players…we’re dead in the water. Unless we score some rookie scale gems, but that’s a stupid thing to bank on (overpaid guys that stink and believing young late frps will carry them. You make it sound like those rookie extensions aren’t just weeks away.

I don't really agree. JI has DPOY upside and WCJ has stretch 5 with solid defense upside. Both are in their primes through the duration of the contracts. I could see teams thinking they are starting quality players and trade for them.

WCJ will be paid a little more than the MLE, JI a little less. Hardly crippling investments. The team's success is mainly anchored to Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. AB's development is a nice wildcard. Our 2026 pick will likely be another lottery pick as we can swap with Phoenix. Our draft equity cupboard is fully stocked.

1. Draft well and get the G-League development pipeline churning out rotation quality players.
2. Make some smart, rebalancing trades.

Weltman has hardly backed himself into a corner.

[byeganyo]

If most or all of those Ill-advised extensions are still on the roster and/or ARE our5th and 6th best players…we’re dead in the water. Unless we score some rookie scale gems, but that’s a stupid thing to bank on (overpaid guys that stink and believing young late frps will carry them. You make it sound like those rookie extensions aren’t just weeks away.

I don't really agree. JI has DPOY upside and WCJ has stretch 5 with solid defense upside. Both are in their primes through the duration of the contracts. I could see teams thinking they are starting quality players and trade for them.

WCJ will be paid a little more than the MLE, JI a little less. Hardly crippling investments. The team's success is mainly anchored to Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. AB's development is a nice wildcard. Our 2026 pick will likely be another lottery pick as we can swap with Phoenix. Our draft equity cupboard is fully stocked.

1. Draft well and get the G-League development pipeline churning out rotation quality players.
2. Make some smart, rebalancing trades.

Weltman has hardly backed himself into a corner.

No, he is just slowly digging a hole, give him one or two more seasons and he'll be ready.

Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior -
1) How many of his picks in the past 8 years will stay the same or go higher in a hypothetical redraft? Fanz and Paolo, that's it, 2 out of 10. So betting on another smart draft picks is a risky shot which leads us to
2) Tell me about all smart trades he has done so far.

You expect a 65y old man all of a sudden to start doing thins he has not done...

[eyriq]

If most or all of those Ill-advised extensions are still on the roster and/or ARE our5th and 6th best players…we’re dead in the water. Unless we score some rookie scale gems, but that’s a stupid thing to bank on (overpaid guys that stink and believing young late frps will carry them. You make it sound like those rookie extensions aren’t just weeks away.

I don't really agree. JI has DPOY upside and WCJ has stretch 5 with solid defense upside. Both are in their primes through the duration of the contracts. I could see teams thinking they are starting quality players and trade for them.

WCJ will be paid a little more than the MLE, JI a little less. Hardly crippling investments. The team's success is mainly anchored to Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. AB's development is a nice wildcard. Our 2026 pick will likely be another lottery pick as we can swap with Phoenix. Our draft equity cupboard is fully stocked.

1. Draft well and get the G-League development pipeline churning out rotation quality players.
2. Make some smart, rebalancing trades.

Weltman has hardly backed himself into a corner.

No, he is just slowly digging a hole, give him one or two more seasons and he'll be ready.

Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior -
1) How many of his picks in the past 8 years will stay the same or go higher in a hypothetical redraft? Fanz and Paolo, that's it, 2 out of 10. So betting on another smart draft picks is a risky shot which leads us to
2) Tell me about all smart trades he has done so far.

You expect a 65y old man all of a sudden to start doing thins he has not done...

What hole? The core of the roster long-long term is
Core: Paolo, Franz, Suggs
Role player: WCJ, JI
Lottery: AB, Jett

There is nothing crippling or limiting there. You can see the bets Weltman is placing.

[pepe1991]

Isaac's playing prime ended in moment when his ACL snapped and year passed and he still couldn't practice, let alone play. His basketball peak was age 22.


Carter , like Isaac, played in nba for 7 years. His prime was 3 years ago. Everything before and after that is nothing but mediocrity pleagued by injuries.

Again, player's prime isn't mandatory 27th birthday when they roll out of bed in peak basketball shape because they are now 27. Player's prime can literally be rookie year. Fultz peaked in year 3. MCW peaked as a rookie, Lebron's peak lasted for 10 years, Jordan's prime lasted for 8-ish years.


And for f*** sake with this Suns pick. They are literally better team than us this year. We will start season without Mortiz, some experts opinions on Suggs situation aren't very positive, so he will either miss whole summer worth of training or not even be ready to play at opening of next year. It's pick swap, not right to have Suns (Wizards? ) pick. We have to mind own business and fix so much crap on this roster to not have same season as current one- next year.

KCP, Isaac, Carter aren't assets, they are negative value players that need to be traded using assets. Isaac is 7 foot guy who has 50% TS and 4 years left on his contract, Carter is somehow worst, with 3+1 years left ( after this one!) . KCP costs $22M to look like s**y version of Keon Ellis, who btw makes $2,1M a year.

There will be no trade aveliable for Magic to upgrade roster without trading those picks. There simply won't.

[Idiosyncratic]

Isaac's playing prime ended in moment when his ACL snapped and year passed and he still couldn't practice, let alone play. His basketball peak was age 22.


Carter , like Isaac, played in nba for 7 years. His prime was 3 years ago. Everything before and after that is nothing but mediocrity pleagued by injuries.

Again, player's prime isn't mandatory 27th birthday when they roll out of bed in peak basketball shape because they are now 27. Player's prime can literally be rookie year. Fultz peaked in year 3. MCW peaked as a rookie, Lebron's peak lasted for 10 years, Jordan's prime lasted for 8-ish years.


And for f*** sake with this Suns pick. They are literally better team than us this year. We will start season without Mortiz, some experts opinions on Suggs situation aren't very positive, so he will either miss whole summer worth of training or not even be ready to play at opening of next year. It's pick swap, not right to have Suns (Wizards? ) pick. We have to mind own business and fix so much crap on this roster to not have same season as current one- next year.

KCP, Isaac, Carter aren't assets, they are negative value players that need to be traded using assets. Isaac is 7 foot guy who has 50% TS and 4 years left on his contract, Carter is somehow worst, with 3+1 years left ( after this one!) . KCP costs $22M to look like s**y version of Keon Ellis, who btw makes $2,1M a year.

There will be no trade aveliable for Magic to upgrade roster without trading those picks. There simply won't.

They will have to make trades, but it isn't going to take every pick they have. Attaching a 1st to our bad contracts and getting mediocre players is a good way to quickly close the proverbial window that probably never even opened. Sometimes it's better to just wait for the guy to become an expiring and thus easier to move.

Also the Suns pick could be super valuable, it might not be. But the upside of it alone does make it more valuable than a standard 1st IMO. I'm just saying don't get bad value for the picks. They are still very valuable around the league as evident by a multitude of trades and the hoarding we have seen. Just because we don't think rookies are fixing us, doesn't mean we still shouldn't get proper value back, that's all I'm saying half of the time.

I don't think I agreed with a single thing Weltman did in the offseason, I don't think they need to make every pick they have. But there is still a point where if I'm trading a near lottery pick for an OK player on a 1 year deal or something where I'm thinking "man I would rather just take a shot on 4 years of a cheap rookie plus RFA rights". Make trades yes, but get good players.

[eyriq]

Isaac's playing prime ended in moment when his ACL snapped and year passed and he still couldn't practice, let alone play. His basketball peak was age 22.


Carter , like Isaac, played in nba for 7 years. His prime was 3 years ago. Everything before and after that is nothing but mediocrity pleagued by injuries.

Again, player's prime isn't mandatory 27th birthday when they roll out of bed in peak basketball shape because they are now 27. Player's prime can literally be rookie year. Fultz peaked in year 3. MCW peaked as a rookie, Lebron's peak lasted for 10 years, Jordan's prime lasted for 8-ish years.


And for f*** sake with this Suns pick. They are literally better team than us this year. We will start season without Mortiz, some experts opinions on Suggs situation aren't very positive, so he will either miss whole summer worth of training or not even be ready to play at opening of next year. It's pick swap, not right to have Suns (Wizards? ) pick. We have to mind own business and fix so much crap on this roster to not have same season as current one- next year.

KCP, Isaac, Carter aren't assets, they are negative value players that need to be traded using assets. Isaac is 7 foot guy who has 50% TS and 4 years left on his contract, Carter is somehow worst, with 3+1 years left ( after this one!) . KCP costs $22M to look like s**y version of Keon Ellis, who btw makes $2,1M a year.

There will be no trade aveliable for Magic to upgrade roster without trading those picks. There simply won't.

JI's been pretty consistently healthy. Baby steps. Even post injury he's shown flashes of DPOY impact. Current mpg trends are concerning though.

WCJ hasn't had an injury that would rob him of his athletic prime. The hand surgery explains the shooting trend.

The West is tough, Suns will probably be in the lottery this year and have a better pick. Our teams are going in opposite directions.

You love to take the worst case angle and act as if it's the most reasonable view.

[Idiosyncratic]

I think we underrate some of our assets here a lot of times. Look around the league, you can get a solid starter for a mid 1st all day at the deadline the last couple of years. Gafford, Ingram, PJ Washington, Deandre Hunter (roughly), Finney-Smith, Rozier at the time, Olynyk/Agbaji combo. All went for a single 1st or multiple 2nds.

We can trade for a player or two with our picks that can be in the rotation easily while retaining future draft equity and possibly even a pick this year.

I hated the Wendell/Isaac extensions and Caldwell-Pope signing. I didn't post here, but I was not happy with any of those moves. Caldwell-Pope will be an expiring after next year, Isaac is descending and has an out in his contract. Wendell is the worst of them for sure, but he can be roughly an average player, maybe the 3 can come back.

It is not THAT bleak IMO. We have our big 3, it is just tinkering around them at this point. We have plenty of assets with which to do that. It is only bleak if you don't believe in Paolo/Franz/Suggs. Which I mean could be a valid opinion, usually you don't win a title without a superstar and there may not be one amongst them.

I guess it is also bleak if Weltman doesn't add some competent guard play, but I am hoping he realizes it is a necessity at this point.

[eyriq]

I think we underrate some of our assets here a lot of times. Look around the league, you can get a solid starter for a mid 1st all day at the deadline the last couple of years. Gafford, Ingram, PJ Washington, Deandre Hunter (roughly), Finney-Smith, Rozier at the time, Olynyk/Agbaji combo. All went for a single 1st or multiple 2nds.

We can trade for a player or two with our picks that can be in the rotation easily while retaining future draft equity and possibly even a pick this year.

I hated the Wendell/Isaac extensions and Caldwell-Pope signing. I didn't post here, but I was not happy with any of those moves. Caldwell-Pope will be an expiring after next year, Isaac is descending and has an out in his contract. Wendell is the worst of them for sure, but he can be roughly an average player, maybe the 3 can come back.

It is not THAT bleak IMO. We have our big 3, it is just tinkering around them at this point. We have plenty of assets with which to do that. It is only bleak if you don't believe in Paolo/Franz/Suggs. Which I mean could be a valid opinion, usually you don't win a title without a superstar and there may not be one amongst them.

I guess it is also bleak if Weltman doesn't add some competent guard play, but I am hoping he realizes it is a necessity at this point.

I’m lock step with you in this evaluation. I hated the extensions. Nothing damning though