Can you make the case that Duncan is top-7 all time?

[Mirotic12]

No. He's definitely not a top 7 all time player.

[cupcakesnake]

It just irks me which I accept you weren’t doing for people to attempt to diminish Curry or even more so Jordan by carping about the strength of their teams, which I don’t see as independent of them, and a great team being built around a player is a positive for them rather than a negative imo. Timmy is the ultimate team player for me, except maybe for Bill Russell whom it is impossible for me to really assess, and must have been doing something right to have success with different players over such a timespan with a small market team, and seemed to be the leader of the team for much of that span including for the last title which while it was Kawhi’s coming out party was not a team really led by him.

I don't think it's a coincidence the Curry and Duncan, two of the most portable stars EVER (Curry due to his ability and willingness to play off the ball, and Duncan because of his defense and versatility) had contenders built around them their whole career. They're both first in line for receiving credit for what those teams accomplished. Parker and Manu were perfect compliments for TD, and Dray/Klay were perfect for Curry, but I think Duncan and Curry are the ones making it easy to put interesting players around them. You could slotted in a LOT of different players next to Curry and found some success. Had they ever paired Curry with a more dominant on-ball player, Curry would have not only made that work, he probably would have made it devastating.

When we're talking about the best of the best, I'm not trying to diminish anyone when I talk about their rosters/contexts/careers. Almost all of these guys were tremendously lucky and tremendously talented. When we're stacking up accolades and success, it's worthwhile to compare and contrast these things. To be the best player on a team that wins titles, you need to be an all-time great. That's a no brainer. Some stars unfortunately spend some time in bad situations, and that should be brought up when fans are ranking these guys lower due to accolades or being perceived as not driving success.

[70sFan]

No. He's definitely not a top 7 all time player.

It's not definite when so many people disagree with you and have reasonable arguments to back up their claims.

[G35]

I would put Duncan in top five and could argue top 3.

Five championships, championships is what separates the greatest from the stat monsters

Duncan's 2003 season is among the greatest seasons ever and in the running for best ever to won with the least talent

Consistently great every year individually and as a team; many players can "get theirs" but can you make sure your team is a contender

One of two players in NBA history to record at least 26,000 points, 15,000 rebounds, and 3,000 blocks

From 1999–2000 to 2016–17, the Spurs won 50 games each season, setting a record of 18 consecutive 50-win seasons.

In 2019 the San Antonio Spurs tied the NBA record of 22 consecutive playoff appearances. The Spurs' streak started in the 1998 NBA playoffs and ended after missing the 2020 NBA playoffs.

Tim Duncan has a unique combination of accolades, stats, and team success that only Jordan and Kareem can match imo.....

[michaelm]

It just irks me which I accept you weren’t doing for people to attempt to diminish Curry or even more so Jordan by carping about the strength of their teams, which I don’t see as independent of them, and a great team being built around a player is a positive for them rather than a negative imo. Timmy is the ultimate team player for me, except maybe for Bill Russell whom it is impossible for me to really assess, and must have been doing something right to have success with different players over such a timespan with a small market team, and seemed to be the leader of the team for much of that span including for the last title which while it was Kawhi’s coming out party was not a team really led by him.

I don't think it's a coincidence the Curry and Duncan, two of the most portable stars EVER (Curry due to his ability and willingness to play off the ball, and Duncan because of his defense and versatility) had contenders built around them their whole career. They're both first in line for receiving credit for what those teams accomplished. Parker and Manu were perfect compliments for TD, and Dray/Klay were perfect for Curry, but I think Duncan and Curry are the ones making it easy to put interesting players around them. You could slotted in a LOT of different players next to Curry and found some success. Had they ever paired Curry with a more dominant on-ball player, Curry would have not only made that work, he probably would have made it devastating.

When we're talking about the best of the best, I'm not trying to diminish anyone when I talk about their rosters/contexts/careers. Almost all of these guys were tremendously lucky and tremendously talented. When we're stacking up accolades and success, it's worthwhile to compare and contrast these things. To be the best player on a team that wins titles, you need to be an all-time great. That's a no brainer. Some stars unfortunately spend some time in bad situations, and that should be brought up when fans are ranking these guys lower due to accolades or being perceived as not driving success.

Absolutely, some guys are never in a situation to win a title through no fault of their own. LeBron even if he is the GOAT and better than Jordan, Kareem et al was never going to win a title in the situation he was in at the Cavs the first time around. The likes of Stockton and Malone might have been a dynasty themselves if they hadn’t coincided with the Jordan Bulls.

The players who do win multiple titles need luck, with injuries for a start. But as a starting point they did win those titles, which is more real imo than arguing hypotheticals about Jordan not winning if he didn’t have Pippen, not rating the opposing teams highly 25 years later, etc. I also have a problem with the argument that the KD GSW titles don’t count because Curry and KD together were too good, which is a contradiction in terms for me.

[Special_Puppy]

Timmy has the best career +/- for any player with over 500 games played.

Spoiler:

(You'll never guess who is #2...)

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-career-plus-minus-per-game-with-100-games-played-nba-with-over-500-gp

Raw plus/minus basically tells us: who played in the most successful lineups during their careers.

Credit is due for these players contributing to good lineups, but looking at the list it's pretty clear: these are the guys who were really blessed in terms of always being on competitive teams. Tatum is the modern poster child for this, but of course we're also seeing Stockton/Malone, Curry/Green, all those Spurs, etc. There's a couple guys that I find impressive to be on this list. Guys who were in a lot of situations and always seemed to drive success. Duncan and Tatum... guys who were drafted into 50-win teams and had competitive rosters their whole careers, of course they have sick plus/minus stats.

Also, this data only goes back to 1997.

Should probably post that he's +7.9 (7th) in Career RAPM. https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html. In general a lot of overlap with the list of raw plus-minus leaders even if the order is reshuffled

[canada_dry]

Of course you could.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[OdomFan]

Duncan is number 2 all time imo. For leadership, helping teammates around him grow into stars. His unselfishness helping bring the best out of the whole team, and helping the coach go down as arguably top 1-3 coach of all time.

Where do you rank Russell given he's arguably just a better version of Duncan in terms of leadership and those intangible?

I don't agree with any of that. Duncan is a better overall player and leader than Russell.

[Anderson Hunt]

In my NBA-viewing lifetime:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. James
5. Olajuwon
6. Shaq
7. Duncan

[Raps in 4]

You could easily make a top-3 case for him. The only two players I can comfortably put ahead of him are Jordan and LeBron.

Winning five titles without playing with another superstar in his prime is absurdly impressive. He was elite on both sides of the ball in a career that spanned nearly 20 years.

[dhsilv2]

Duncan is number 2 all time imo. For leadership, helping teammates around him grow into stars. His unselfishness helping bring the best out of the whole team, and helping the coach go down as arguably top 1-3 coach of all time.

Where do you rank Russell given he's arguably just a better version of Duncan in terms of leadership and those intangible?

I don't agree with any of that. Duncan is a better overall player and leader than Russell.

What makes you put Duncan ahead as a leader? Especially given Russell was the coach for multiple titles?

[The Laker Kid]

Nah, maybe top 10. How about Bill Russell? Larry Bird? Shaq?

[70sFan]

Nah, maybe top 10. How about Bill Russell? Larry Bird? Shaq?

1. You can have all three ahead of him and sti have Duncan inside top 7.
2. Duncan has very reasonable case over all of these three players.

[OdomFan]

Where do you rank Russell given he's arguably just a better version of Duncan in terms of leadership and those intangible?

I don't agree with any of that. Duncan is a better overall player and leader than Russell.

What makes you put Duncan ahead as a leader? Especially given Russell was the coach for multiple titles?

Well for starters I'd say Bob Cousy had just as much of leadership role to the 60s Celtics as Russell did. David Robinson may have a case for 1998 season and the 1999 title run, but after that it was pretty clear that Duncan was the top guy of that squad, and his unselfish play helped young talent around him develop into stars year by year till his retirement.

That may not be as impressive to you as 11 championships in the 1960s, but I'd say that Spurs team being able to stop Shaq and Kobe from potentially winning 5 in a row from 1999 to 2003 to being just as impressive imo. Not to mention stopping Lebron, Wade and Bosh's Heat from 3 peating, stopping the Pistons from repeating, and stopping greats such as Nash, Dirk (for a good while), Kidd at his prime, and others from getting a ring through the 2000s.

Duncan was every bit as good on defense if not better, and was a far better offensive player. To me Duncan is number 2 right behind Jordan.

[dhsilv2]

I don't agree with any of that. Duncan is a better overall player and leader than Russell.

What makes you put Duncan ahead as a leader? Especially given Russell was the coach for multiple titles?

Well for starters I'd say Bob Cousy had just as much of leadership role to the 60s Celtics as Russell did. David Robinson may have a case for 1998 season and the 1999 title run, but after that it was pretty clear that Duncan was the top guy of that squad, and his unselfish play helped young talent around him develop into stars year by year till his retirement.

That may not be as impressive to you as 11 championships in the 1960s, but I'd say that Spurs team being able to stop Shaq and Kobe from potentially winning 5 in a row from 1999 to 2003 to being just as impressive imo. Not to mention stopping Lebron, Wade and Bosh's Heat from 3 peating, stopping the Pistons from repeating, and stopping greats such as Nash, Dirk (for a good while), Kidd at his prime, and others from getting a ring through the 2000s.

Duncan was every bit as good on defense if not better, and was a far better offensive player. To me Duncan is number 2 right behind Jordan.

I can see Cousy early career (but he retired in 63), but Russell just kept winning after he retired and as I noted, he was the head coach for the last 3 titles. I'm not debating the who was better as a player part. But I'm asking why was Duncan a better leader in your opinion. So I'm not sure why his playoff success in terms of who he beat matters. That was at least as I see it, at least equally related to his play as he leadership.

[uncleoswald]

i have a hard time buying duncan as a GOAT, because the spurs never went back-to-back. but if we're talking about guys who are great-but-not-GOAT-caliber, he's first off the bench.

the greatest of his time, better than shaq and kobe.

[ChumboChappati]

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
MJ
LeBron
Magic
…………..Timmy?

5x titles
3x f-mvp
elite prime (b2b mvp’s & 4 titles)
elite longevity (made all-nba in 98’ & 15’)
15x all-nba
15x all-defense
no drama & great teammate
.

Oscar?