Trades and Transactions Thread - 2025 Season Discussion

[R-DAWG]

I agree with your sentiment. One small correction though: Keep in mind the draft 2022 was held on the 24th of June and we signed Hartenstein 3 weeks later in free agency. Don't know if there was already some sort of agreement in place at the draft but at that point we only had Mitch under contract.

Also keep in mind that AT THAT point Hartenstein's best season was 8points/5rebounds....he was nowhere near last season's or this seasons level of play. Duren in his rookie season averaged 9points/9rebounds in just 25minutes (while Hartenstein got 5points/7rebounds with us) and then Duren got 14points/12rebounds last season. My point being, management seriously underestimated Duren's ability because they likely thought "He'll be only a rookie".....same with other drafts. And it may be unfair, but I tie some of it to Thibs too for his demand for veterans and unwillingness to develop players. Like you, I do like our roster but feel the upside is somewhat limited. Look at OKC, perfectly put together team and vast assets left. Literally, if OKC plays their cards right they are a dynasty for the upcoming 8-10 years...they should win at least 3-4 titles.

99% of Knick fans would probably trade rosters with OKC and they have like 10!!! tradable FRPs left.

In hindsight, passing on the 11th pick of the 2022 draft for two picks in the 16-22 range in the 2025 draft and 2 Washington 2nds wasn’t a good move.

Could you imagine the vibes around this team if we had Jalen Williams as a third year all-star making 30% of what Bridges makes with control of all our future draft capital. Frankly, we probably would have had OG on a better contract the way the summer played out if our hand wasn’t forced post Bridges trade.

Not to pile on Bridges here, and we don’t know if Williams or Brunson for that matter would have developed the same if they ended up on the same team. But drafting and developing your own guys always puts you in a better position than paying a premium (or in bridges case a premium and then some) for other teams guys.

I actually would go even further and say you won't win a title if you don't have 2 starters drafted and developed by yourself....almost all title teams had that...maybe with the exception of the Lakers who always seem to get gifted a superstar every 5-7 years.

Especially in a 2nd apron world. Need cost controlled talent that produces above their pay slot. Hate to say it, but both OG and KAT produce below their pay slot and Brunson’s deal only offsets one of them.

[nykballa2k4]

Probably, we have to choose between Precious or a Tax MLE FA.

Then, we will sign min agents or second-rounders with the remaining amount.

We have his early bird rights no? I expect he will be back, but this FO is very creative, they had him as a last second signing last summer (though we all expected it).

Full Bird Rights I believe because we got him in the OG trade and re-signed him.

I was not sure if we had to renounce them to make the Towns trade. It looks like we held onto them, so we may string him along again this summer to see what else we can add.

[Jalen Bluntson]

We have his early bird rights no? I expect he will be back, but this FO is very creative, they had him as a last second signing last summer (though we all expected it).

Full Bird Rights I believe because we got him in the OG trade and re-signed him.

I was not sure if we had to renounce them to make the Towns trade. It looks like we held onto them, so we may string him along again this summer to see what else we can add.

I'm a Precious fan. He's nothing special but, I just like the dude. He has held it down for us when we needed him to. Whatever we need to do to upgrade the bench though....I am all for it.

[R-DAWG]

Full Bird Rights I believe because we got him in the OG trade and re-signed him.

I was not sure if we had to renounce them to make the Towns trade. It looks like we held onto them, so we may string him along again this summer to see what else we can add.

I'm a Precious fan. He's nothing special but, I just like the dude. He has held it down for us when we needed him to. Whatever we need to do to upgrade the bench though....I am all for it.

We still have full bird rights on Precious. The dance is fitting him in with the taxpayer MLE under the 2nd apron.

Ideally, we would find a way to re-sign him for $3MM next year (with a player option the following year). Once we jump over the 2nd apron, you use his bird rights to create a large expiring contract for future trade purposes.

[R-DAWG]

In hindsight, passing on the 11th pick of the 2022 draft for two picks in the 16-22 range in the 2025 draft and 2 Washington 2nds wasn’t a good move.

Could you imagine the vibes around this team if we had Jalen Williams as a third year all-star making 30% of what Bridges makes with control of all our future draft capital. Frankly, we probably would have had OG on a better contract the way the summer played out if our hand wasn’t forced post Bridges trade.

Not to pile on Bridges here, and we don’t know if Williams or Brunson for that matter would have developed the same if they ended up on the same team. But drafting and developing your own guys always puts you in a better position than paying a premium (or in bridges case a premium and then some) for other teams guys.

I actually would go even further and say you won't win a title if you don't have 2 starters drafted and developed by yourself....almost all title teams had that...maybe with the exception of the Lakers who always seem to get gifted a superstar every 5-7 years.

You are right if you think about how hard is to get a premium no-washed star outside the draft without using all of your assets in the trade. That is the reason champions usually have 1 or 2 own drafted players in their rosters.

But the Knicks got the impossible. They got 2 premium stars without paying to much for them.

If you analyze cap management-wise, getting a star via draft is pretty much the same as getting via FA or trade. You end up paying the same money.

Unless the player turns into a star when they still have a rookie contract. But a rookie star is very hard to get.

First off, I'm not sure Towns is a premium star, and frankly Brunson might not be either. In my opinion, the premium star bucket ranges from Luka Donncic/SGA level to Tatum level - and Brunson is a step below Tatum level.

But the biggest issue with the team isn't Towns/Brunson at the moment (although their defensive deficiencies have really shown against true contenders), it's the over investment in Brunson/Anunoby and the redundancy in their games limiting their impact while the cost to acquire team leaves the roster extremely thin.

But call a spade a spade, this Knicks team was built to win 50 games every year and make it to the 2nd round with the hope that one year things line up and they have a special run.

[thebuzzardman]

I actually would go even further and say you won't win a title if you don't have 2 starters drafted and developed by yourself....almost all title teams had that...maybe with the exception of the Lakers who always seem to get gifted a superstar every 5-7 years.

You are right if you think about how hard is to get a premium no-washed star outside the draft without using all of your assets in the trade. That is the reason champions usually have 1 or 2 own drafted players in their rosters.

But the Knicks got the impossible. They got 2 premium stars without paying to much for them.

If you analyze cap management-wise, getting a star via draft is pretty much the same as getting via FA or trade. You end up paying the same money.

Unless the player turns into a star when they still have a rookie contract. But a rookie star is very hard to get.

First off, I'm not sure Towns is a premium star, and frankly Brunson might not be either. In my opinion, the premium star bucket ranges from Luka Donncic/SGA level to Tatum level - and Brunson is a step below Tatum level.

But the biggest issue with the team isn't Towns/Brunson at the moment (although their defensive deficiencies have really shown against true contenders), it's the over investment in Brunson/Anunoby and the redundancy in their games limiting their impact while the cost to acquire team leaves the roster extremely thin.

But call a spade a spade, this Knicks team was built to win 50 games every year and make it to the 2nd round with the hope that one year things line up and they have a special run.

Brunson at 30 million per is an over investment?

Maybe KAT is. Maybe OG. Brunson isn't.

[R-DAWG]

You are right if you think about how hard is to get a premium no-washed star outside the draft without using all of your assets in the trade. That is the reason champions usually have 1 or 2 own drafted players in their rosters.

But the Knicks got the impossible. They got 2 premium stars without paying to much for them.

If you analyze cap management-wise, getting a star via draft is pretty much the same as getting via FA or trade. You end up paying the same money.

Unless the player turns into a star when they still have a rookie contract. But a rookie star is very hard to get.

First off, I'm not sure Towns is a premium star, and frankly Brunson might not be either. In my opinion, the premium star bucket ranges from Luka Donncic/SGA level to Tatum level - and Brunson is a step below Tatum level.

But the biggest issue with the team isn't Towns/Brunson at the moment (although their defensive deficiencies have really shown against true contenders), it's the over investment in Brunson/Anunoby and the redundancy in their games limiting their impact while the cost to acquire team leaves the roster extremely thin.

But call a spade a spade, this Knicks team was built to win 50 games every year and make it to the 2nd round with the hope that one year things line up and they have a special run.

Brunson at 30 million per is an over investment?

Maybe KAT is. Maybe OG. Brunson isn't.

Should have said Bridges not Brunson.

Brunson should be on Towns contract and Towns on Brunson’s contract. They cancel each other out over the next 3 years.

[Adelheid]

Nah man, OG is nice - a bit overpaid but still nice and is really needed in the team. You dont really want a player of his defensive caliber landing on an eastern rival

[R-DAWG]

Nah man, OG is nice - a bit overpaid but still nice and is really needed in the team. You dont really want a player of his defensive caliber landing on an eastern rival

Having both OG and Mikal is a luxury not a necessity, especially with Josh who should be in a bench role.

The team would be better off with Mikal (or OG) at the 3, a durable rim protector next to KAT, and a more traditional SG next to Brunson.

I think you can live with Mikal at the 2 if you had another dependable shot creator off the bench and a rim protector next to KAT.

Challenge is being over invested in Mikal/OG leaves the roster too limited with no real path to round it out

[thebuzzardman]

Trade everyone, start the rebuild

[spree2kawhi]

Nah man, OG is nice - a bit overpaid but still nice and is really needed in the team. You dont really want a player of his defensive caliber landing on an eastern rival

Nor should his impact be underestimated at all.

[spree2kawhi]

Nah man, OG is nice - a bit overpaid but still nice and is really needed in the team. You dont really want a player of his defensive caliber landing on an eastern rival

Having both OG and Mikal is a luxury not a necessity, especially with Josh who should be in a bench role.

The team would be better off with Mikal (or OG) at the 3, a durable rim protector next to KAT, and a more traditional SG next to Brunson.

I think you can live with Mikal at the 2 if you had another dependable shot creator off the bench and a rim protector next to KAT.

Challenge is being over invested in Mikal/OG leaves the roster too limited with no real path to round it out

I think this is very short-sighted and wrong. You cannot reasonably say that you want to contend for a title and find our defensive ability on the wing redundant. That’s how you build middling teams. These two guys will prove invaluable soon enough and I would not want to trade either of these studs for one-dimensional pogo-sticks or chuckers. You can always add that somehow. I cannot understand that idea one bit.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Trade everyone, start the rebuild

They tried their best! After 4 months the results are in. Not good enough! NEXT!

[WaltFrazier]

Nah man, OG is nice - a bit overpaid but still nice and is really needed in the team. You dont really want a player of his defensive caliber landing on an eastern rival

Having both OG and Mikal is a luxury not a necessity, especially with Josh who should be in a bench role.

The team would be better off with Mikal (or OG) at the 3, a durable rim protector next to KAT, and a more traditional SG next to Brunson.

I think you can live with Mikal at the 2 if you had another dependable shot creator off the bench and a rim protector next to KAT.

Challenge is being over invested in Mikal/OG leaves the roster too limited with no real path to round it out

I think this is very short-sighted and wrong. You cannot reasonably say that you want to contend for a title and find our defensive ability on the wing redundant. That’s how you build middling teams. These two guys will prove invaluable soon enough and I would not want to trade either of these studs for one-dimensional pogo-sticks or chuckers. You can always add that somehow. I cannot understand that idea one bit.

Many have floated the idea of starting Mitch as the rim protector next to Kat. And bring Hart off the bench. Which would put OG and Mikal in their natural positions, including more Bridges as secondary playmaker in place of Hart doing that.

I'd like to see it tried but is Mitch ready to start? And would Thibs ever move Josh to 6th man?

[Jalen Bluntson]

Having both OG and Mikal is a luxury not a necessity, especially with Josh who should be in a bench role.

The team would be better off with Mikal (or OG) at the 3, a durable rim protector next to KAT, and a more traditional SG next to Brunson.

I think you can live with Mikal at the 2 if you had another dependable shot creator off the bench and a rim protector next to KAT.

Challenge is being over invested in Mikal/OG leaves the roster too limited with no real path to round it out

I think this is very short-sighted and wrong. You cannot reasonably say that you want to contend for a title and find our defensive ability on the wing redundant. That’s how you build middling teams. These two guys will prove invaluable soon enough and I would not want to trade either of these studs for one-dimensional pogo-sticks or chuckers. You can always add that somehow. I cannot understand that idea one bit.

Many have floated the idea of starting Mitch as the rim protector next to Kat. And bring Hart off the bench. Which would put OG and Mikal in their natural positions, including more Bridges as secondary playmaker in place of Hart doing that.

I'd like to see it tried but is Mitch ready to start? And would Thibs ever move Josh to 6th man?

We could experiment next game if we wanted to. Even just by staggering substitutions. Mitch/Kolek come in for Payne/Hart. I would love to see that.

[Chanel Bomber]

I actually would go even further and say you won't win a title if you don't have 2 starters drafted and developed by yourself....almost all title teams had that...maybe with the exception of the Lakers who always seem to get gifted a superstar every 5-7 years.

You are right if you think about how hard is to get a premium no-washed star outside the draft without using all of your assets in the trade. That is the reason champions usually have 1 or 2 own drafted players in their rosters.

But the Knicks got the impossible. They got 2 premium stars without paying to much for them.

If you analyze cap management-wise, getting a star via draft is pretty much the same as getting via FA or trade. You end up paying the same money.

Unless the player turns into a star when they still have a rookie contract. But a rookie star is very hard to get.

First off, I'm not sure Towns is a premium star, and frankly Brunson might not be either. In my opinion, the premium star bucket ranges from Luka Donncic/SGA level to Tatum level - and Brunson is a step below Tatum level.

But the biggest issue with the team isn't Towns/Brunson at the moment (although their defensive deficiencies have really shown against true contenders), it's the over investment in Brunson/Anunoby and the redundancy in their games limiting their impact while the cost to acquire team leaves the roster extremely thin.

But call a spade a spade, this Knicks team was built to win 50 games every year and make it to the 2nd round with the hope that one year things line up and they have a special run.

I think you've generally hit the nail on the head.

We have two tier-2 stars. Great offensive players, but their defensive frailties combine to strain our roster construction. I think these frailties expose each other more together than they already do on their own, which is problematic. There's a magnifying effect.

Nevertheless, I do think the FO expected a team closer to a 55-60 win team with their personnel moves. And they could be if Wingstop was a thing. But neither Bridges nor OG has played elite defense this year, which falls way short of the FO's investment in them and (I believe) their expectations for them, particularly defensively (although Mikal hasn't been elite in years).

There is a skill overlap which manifests on offense but I don't think it explains why Mikal and OG have played below expectations on defense. I make no excuses for them, and I hold them partly accountable for the Knicks' porous defense, even as they aren't its weak links. Because they were expected to compensate for the stars' weaknesses, and they haven't managed to do that.

Are they playing with less intensity defensively because they feel they are being "unreasonably" asked to carry the defense on their teammates' behalf while being passengers on offense? I think it's the most plausible explanation. One that doesn't make me feel any more sympathetic, but I think there may be a cultural/psychological component to it.

Perhaps more than anything, that's the argument for starting Mitch. He sets the tone with his unselfishness and willingness to do the hard work without asking for any offensive reward. Maybe that lights a fire under OG and Mikal to be the Wingstop duo they can be but simply haven't been. Shame for our 5-out offense, but I suppose 212 mill isn't enough of an incentive.

[HopelessKnick]

You are right if you think about how hard is to get a premium no-washed star outside the draft without using all of your assets in the trade. That is the reason champions usually have 1 or 2 own drafted players in their rosters.

But the Knicks got the impossible. They got 2 premium stars without paying to much for them.

If you analyze cap management-wise, getting a star via draft is pretty much the same as getting via FA or trade. You end up paying the same money.

Unless the player turns into a star when they still have a rookie contract. But a rookie star is very hard to get.

First off, I'm not sure Towns is a premium star, and frankly Brunson might not be either. In my opinion, the premium star bucket ranges from Luka Donncic/SGA level to Tatum level - and Brunson is a step below Tatum level.

But the biggest issue with the team isn't Towns/Brunson at the moment (although their defensive deficiencies have really shown against true contenders), it's the over investment in Brunson/Anunoby and the redundancy in their games limiting their impact while the cost to acquire team leaves the roster extremely thin.

But call a spade a spade, this Knicks team was built to win 50 games every year and make it to the 2nd round with the hope that one year things line up and they have a special run.

I think you've generally hit the nail on the head.

We have two tier-2 stars. Great offensive players, but their defensive frailties combine to strain our roster construction. I think these frailties expose each other more together than they already do on their own, which is problematic. There's a magnifying effect.

Nevertheless, I do think the FO expected a team closer to a 55-60 win team with their personnel moves. And they could be if Wingstop was a thing. But neither Bridges nor OG has played elite defense this year, which falls way short of the FO's investment in them and (I believe) their expectations for them, particularly defensively (although Mikal hasn't been elite in years).

There is a skill overlap which manifests on offense but I don't think it explains why Mikal and OG have played below expectations on defense. I make no excuses for them, and I hold them partly accountable for the Knicks' porous defense, even as they aren't its weak links. Because they were expected to compensate for the stars' weaknesses, and they haven't managed to do that.

Are they playing with less intensity defensively because they feel they are being "unreasonably" asked to carry the defense on their teammates' behalf while being passengers on offense? I think it's the most plausible explanation. One that doesn't make me feel any more sympathetic, but I think there may be a cultural/psychological component to it.

Perhaps more than anything, that's the argument for starting Mitch. He sets the tone with his unselfishness and willingness to do the hard work without asking for any offensive reward. Maybe that lights a fire under OG and Mikal to be the Wingstop duo they can be but simply haven't been. Shame for our 5-out offense, but I suppose 212 mill isn't enough of an incentive.

I don't really understand Thibs inclination to hold onto that 5-out offense. First of, Hart's shooting has leveled off dramatically. He shot 40% from 3 in November and december but below 30% since. So right now we have 4 solid shooters + Hart. Then Boston, Cleveland and OKC have destroyed that line-up badly. Like took us out of the game in the first half entirely. So at this point it is a concept proven not to work against elite teams. So why hold on to it? It only worked early on because Hart was shooting way above his head.

At this point the most logical thing is to start Mitch and hope the added defense compensates for whatever offense we lose. Theoretically the size advantage with Bridges-OG-KAT-Mitch may make it unreasonably difficult for teams to score. Then having Hart off the bench would give a superb boost to a putrid bench. A bench consisting of Kolek, Deuce, Hart, Precious, Shamet looks all of a sudden at least average instead of dreadful. Kolek, Shamet and Deuce are all capable shooters so having Hart slashing and distributing ability there would be potentially beneficial.

[Chanel Bomber]

First off, I'm not sure Towns is a premium star, and frankly Brunson might not be either. In my opinion, the premium star bucket ranges from Luka Donncic/SGA level to Tatum level - and Brunson is a step below Tatum level.

But the biggest issue with the team isn't Towns/Brunson at the moment (although their defensive deficiencies have really shown against true contenders), it's the over investment in Brunson/Anunoby and the redundancy in their games limiting their impact while the cost to acquire team leaves the roster extremely thin.

But call a spade a spade, this Knicks team was built to win 50 games every year and make it to the 2nd round with the hope that one year things line up and they have a special run.

I think you've generally hit the nail on the head.

We have two tier-2 stars. Great offensive players, but their defensive frailties combine to strain our roster construction. I think these frailties expose each other more together than they already do on their own, which is problematic. There's a magnifying effect.

Nevertheless, I do think the FO expected a team closer to a 55-60 win team with their personnel moves. And they could be if Wingstop was a thing. But neither Bridges nor OG has played elite defense this year, which falls way short of the FO's investment in them and (I believe) their expectations for them, particularly defensively (although Mikal hasn't been elite in years).

There is a skill overlap which manifests on offense but I don't think it explains why Mikal and OG have played below expectations on defense. I make no excuses for them, and I hold them partly accountable for the Knicks' porous defense, even as they aren't its weak links. Because they were expected to compensate for the stars' weaknesses, and they haven't managed to do that.

Are they playing with less intensity defensively because they feel they are being "unreasonably" asked to carry the defense on their teammates' behalf while being passengers on offense? I think it's the most plausible explanation. One that doesn't make me feel any more sympathetic, but I think there may be a cultural/psychological component to it.

Perhaps more than anything, that's the argument for starting Mitch. He sets the tone with his unselfishness and willingness to do the hard work without asking for any offensive reward. Maybe that lights a fire under OG and Mikal to be the Wingstop duo they can be but simply haven't been. Shame for our 5-out offense, but I suppose 212 mill isn't enough of an incentive.

I don't really understand Thibs inclination to hold onto that 5-out offense. First of, Hart's shooting has leveled off dramatically. He shot 40% from 3 in November and december but below 30% since. So right now we have 4 solid shooters + Hart. Then Boston, Cleveland and OKC have destroyed that line-up badly. Like took us out of the game in the first half entirely. So at this point it is a concept proven not to work against elite teams. So why hold on to it? It only worked early on because Hart was shooting way above his head.

At this point the most logical thing is to start Mitch and hope the added defense compensates for whatever offense we lose. Theoretically the size advantage with Bridges-OG-KAT-Mitch may make it unreasonably difficult for teams to score. Then having Hart off the bench would give a superb boost to a putrid bench. A bench consisting of Kolek, Deuce, Hart, Precious, Shamet looks all of a sudden at least average instead of dreadful. Kolek, Shamet and Deuce are all capable shooters so having Hart slashing and distributing ability there would be potentially beneficial.

I would say there are two potential reasons for his reticence.

Thibs is also managing a locker room with actual people. Players want consistency in what is expected of them. So Thibs has to be careful about any lineup change. Because if it fails, the players might look at him in a different way, and changing course again might disrupt the locker room or lose players altogether (in this case Hart and/or Mitch).

I think the other factor is Mitch's health. Can he be relied upon to stay healthy so that the lineup change can be sustainable? I think it's a key question, especially this late in the season.

You're right that we're essentially running a 4-out offense currently, and Hart's best role is probably coming off the bench anyway. I just think the situation's a bit delicate with these conditions. I agree with you, but just highlighting it's not a clear-cut, easy situation to manage.

[Jalen Bluntson]

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[WargamesX]

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Knicks gonna have to make some smart decisions to stay under the 2nd apron